The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Engine Shop Carmel covered apples and a tow home Fuel pump???

Wife wanted carmel covered apples lets go in the 54/3100 truck w a 1957 235 engine stock (except HEI by Langdon). Starts right up and off we go. Coming back home running like a champ and its hot outside engine temp normal all systems go. Make a RH turn on to main st. and all goes silent no bucking, burping, hesitation ,power loss just quiet except for the wife who is not happy. Engine turns over and wants to start. We wait for the engine to cool down maybe vapor lock. Try again turns over and nothing! Pull off fuel line and gas is comming out but with no force just a lazy arching stream pulsing with the pump. Fuel filter clear. Call tow truck 2 hrs. later the wife is really mad we make it home. What happen? Is there a way to check pump pressure before I begin to tear things apart ? The pump is over 3 years old and we have Ethonol gas here. Can I check fuel pump pressure and what should it be? I'm not too familiar with mechanical fuel pumps.
Any ideas before I spend another night on the sofa....help....Steve

if it's getting fuel at all, it should run regardless of pressure, did you look down the carb and see if working the linkage shoots gas in? if it's a fuel problem look at the carb being plugged up, but could as likely be ignition, have you checked for spark?

Bill

Did you check to see if you have a spark?

Kurt

And remind the wife she'd have to go on reality tv to have that kind of 'Old Time Adventure' any more.

As those guys said check the electrical first. If all go there then check your oil for evidence of gas in the oil. The ethanol may have destroyed your fuel pump diaphragm and that will let gas past it into the crank case area. You may have to pull the carb and give it a good cleaning or rebuild too.

Sounds like electrical to me

Check for 12V at the HEI with the key on.....
If present, then proceed to check for spark at the plugs ....

What is the best way to check for spark at the HEI. I remember as a kid my uncle would pull a spark plug and see if the spark would jump to the plug? I will look down in the carb it was too hot at that time. The carb was rebuilt by RE-CARBO just a while ago. I'll start with electrical.
Where do I start... a 12 volt meter to where??? Can the fuel pressure/volume be checked with a gauge? She wants to start and turns over fine but the battery is getting weaker. A few pointers on the trouble shooting are needed....wife wants to sell the truck she is "sick of OLD trucks"....urggh! Steve

Make sure that you have 12 Volts at the + on the coil. Take the distributor cap off and make sure the rotor is turning. Take a spark plug out and see of its dry or wet. Once you have the plug out connect it to the plug wire and lay it against the motor and have someone crank the engine to see if you have spark at the plug. If you don't have spark you will need to check the module, pole piece and coil. If you have spark make sure that the motor is not flooded with gas. Then you can take off the fuel line going into carb and hold your thumb over the end of the fuel line and have someone turn it over. You should feel a bit of pressure so watch your eyes so it doesn't squirt you when you remove your finger. If the fuel pump checks out then I would suspect the needle and seat didn't hold and allowed the motor to be drowned with fuel.

I check for a spark by pulling a plug wire, slide the boot back so as to expose the end, hold it by the plug and have some one crank it and see if you have a spark. Or if you don't want it to start, pull the wire out of the center of the distributer cap pull the boot back and holt it near the block. Should get a hot blue spark. I'm not familiar with the electronic ignition systems, but I assume this advice would hold.

Kurt

Thanks for the help. I will do as instructed. I have been on the Langdon site and apparently the module is the least suspect ( that's good because I have no idea what to look for).

As we would say in the Army...by the numbers. 1.Check for voltage at coil. 2. Pull plug check for spark. 3. Crank engine remove line from carb input. Check for pressure( how much? ). If its not spark..then carb? Its a B Rochester.

Since my battery is almost dead will/ could that effect the whole situation. I plan on buying a new one. I have a rechargeable battery that I can use?
I feel like a DA...

if your battry is to low you may not get a good strong spark. Recharge your battery. with shut off immediate no hesitation or sputtering would seem to indicate a electrical problem. I have had the module in a OEM GM distributor fail and it was immediate. Not sure how the module in a aftermarket distributor looks but 70's GM it's a flat plastic somewhat rectangular box with flat terminals to match spade terminals in wiring harness. I'm not sure how you would test module. Check for spark at plugs. Check all your ingnition wiring for loose connections or broken wires. Have had wires broken because I crimped them to tight and wire broke at connector after period of time.

Yep....it just died no sputter or farting just dead stop. It was running great that's what is so infuriating. I'll use our portable recharging battery to check for spark. I'll start at the battery and work my way up. If its the HEI dizzy I'm sunk... probably just buy another and send this one back to Tom for a fix. Could a coil just stop working? That would be a cheap fix..%^$#@@#!$%^%$#!SJB

Yes,

A coil can just stop working.

Kurt

If it is the distributor, which it is starting to sound like more and more, why can't you just fix it? They aren't complicated and depending on whether you have the 2.8L model or one from a 292, etc., parts are plentiful and easy to find.

When the module goes, it just stops working for no reason what so ever with no hint of failure before hand.

Jeff

An HEI is a bit over the top for an electrical DA such as myself. I'll check all the usual stuff. Then open my wallet and have the mobile mechanic repair it. Then work double OT to pay for it. Just cost me 238.00 for my FORD 4.6 it spit a plug out FORD wants 4,000 for a new engine or 2,000 for a head. They will not repair it so I had it towed to a shop. Fixed with something that looks like a heli-coil. Had it back the same day, NO more Ford's for us. At least the 235 running or not is all cast iron! Any other ideas pass them on and we thank you. Steve

If you have no spark, I would suspect the module first.

A lot of folks keep a spare in their glovebox that usually sits there for years since it almost never goes out.

Basically you remove the cap, pull two screws, unplug it, add a little dielectric grease and attach a new module. It costs around $20 if my memory serves me.

Just an idea rather than deal with a new dizzy.

Jeff

After thinking overnight I wanted to add this, once you determine if you have spark, I can send you pictures of the inside of an HEI dizzy and point out what the various parts are. I just keep thinking $20 is worth spending if you might not have to spend $200.

Jeff

Jeff..you DA man. I found my in-line spark tester so I'll be ready this W/E the truck is 200 miles from us so its W/E only. If there is no spark then I have down to coil and dizzy. That being said I remember on the carb there is a small sinter brass filter. I'm going to pull that line and see if gas is flowing.I 'm trying to find a gas pressure gauge so I can put it in-line to see if the pump is working so far no luck. What type of stream should it put out? Enough pressure to shoot a level line or a bunch of pulsating drips? One of the guys brought up a good point even if the pump is DOA enough gas should make it to the carb and I should get some kind of start??? Thanks, Steve
PS just found my uncles remote starter button one lead to postive and the other to the starter solenoid. I can't remember where it goes on the solenoid any ideas?? Steve

Steve,

Does your starter have a solenoid?

The easiest way to check your fuel pump is to give the carb lever a flip. You should see a good stream of gas go down the carb throat. If not, than you have no gas making it to the carb. If your trucks fuel pump failed, you should use up most of the gas in the carb without it being refilled.

When an engine starved for fuel dies, it chokes and stumbles a bit. When the spark stops, nothing happens and you roll to a stop. I had an old Ford once and the electronic ignition went out while driving. It just simply stopped running with no tell tale signs. Driving one minute, silent and rolling the next.

I've never used a gas pressure gauge, so no help there!

Good luck!

Jeff

YEP....its a stomp starter but there is the solenoid above the stomp starter connection. I think the remote lead goes to one of the terminals ( can't remember). I have to see if the solenoid terminals are marked??? Leaving soon for the truck. I'll have my laptop...thanks for your help! Steve

If you have a stomp starter you don't have a solenoid for the starter. Its a mechanical switch, you push the button on the floor it pushes the switch to make a connection to engage the starter motor.

Thanks for the information. I can't remember how my uncle would rig up the engine to turn when he was under the hood. I thought he had a remote button? I guess I'll just push down on the switch with a screw driver are there any better options?

Waldo....where are you? Steve

From under the hood, you have to move the starter lever to engage the starter gear, move it a bit further and the switch is made. Just pushing the switch on the starter will spin the starter but not the engine. There are no Bendix's or solenoids, that's why you needed a foot to overcome the return-spring tension on the lever.

Steve, I made a notched bar with square tubing and an angled end and a rubber cork on one side. I could slide it over the button and lever it against the firewall to engage the starter while sitting under the hood.

Someday I'll get a picture of it since I imagine most bolters here would love to have one.

Jeff

MAKE SURE THE DAGGONE THING IS OUT OF GEAR BEFORE BUMPING THE STARTER FROM UNDER THE HOOD. Don't ask how I know this.

A long prybar works great.

In my younger days I could grab the linkage with with my hand and engage. Somehow that return spring has gotten stiffer with time....


Kurt

Thanks Guys... I bought a battery charger at NAPA(125.00)I'm charging the battery right now. It was lower than 50 percent. Tomorrow I will crank her up to see if I have spark at plugs, dizzy and coil. If all is well then I'll pull the line from the carb and check for fuel pump pressure. I might even pour a bit of gas in to see if anything happens. I'll also check the wires from the battery. Man, she has been running like a champ for 3 years. I hope its a fuel problem. Before i can do all this stuff I have to spray the yard for weeds "she who must be obeyed" has some honey do things. I want to work on the truck but for the sake of peace I'll do the "honey do list" first..Wish me luck, Steve

OK...I just for the heck of it I jumped in and hit the stomper (I did charge the battery to full) and with some choke she started. When we had her towed home she was dead and would not start at all we wore the battery out trying. She stared this morning but she was farting, bucking, rocking and rough as heck she has never run like that. I started her a few times she would run like crap also smelled like un burned gas. Visual check of wires, vacuum lines, gas lines, dizzy tight, cap tight, spark plug wires clean and tight. What should I do first??? Thanks Steve

check the carb for a stuck float flooding it by keeping the needle off the seat, could have happened when you made that turn

Bill

The carb seems to be acting fine. With the air cleaner off and depressing the gas pedal you can hear a sucking sound. I started her up again listening real close no back fires and it sounds like its only running on a few cylinders almost like its out of time and mis-firing. The cab rocks sideways when I hit the gas she will pick up but not smooth out and no idle. I can push the choke in and keep her running with the gas pedal. A friend of mine says if the fuel pump diaphram has a hole in it it will cause not enough gas to the carb causing the jerking mis-fire running? I will not see the truck for another week. Maybe you guys will come up with an answer. My wife says sell it....she likes new......Thanks, Steve

Your wife is spoiled. Do what I did..give the truck to her and then she'll love it.

Only saving grace is, she's the one that wanted me to buy it? When I get back to the truck I'll start from scratch....again, just like when I bought it...Thanks all, Steve

What is the fuel line pressure for 1957 235 engine mechanical pump. We have searched the WWW with no simple answer. We are going to put an in-line pressure gauge to see what we have from pump. Our friend says its a fuel problem....sure why not? Steve

Just back from Salt Lake, UT. Had some time to trouble shoot truck. I changed out the in-line fuel filter also removed and blew out fuel line from carb. Truck runs and idles 19lbs vacuum steady needle and 5 lbs fuel pressure. We cut open the old fuel filter and saw nothing obvious??? The line from the tank to the pump is original steel. Could the line be rusted inside? Also the battery on a load will only test weak and 10 volts so new battery next W/E. Coil 12 volts and checked wiring all seems OK....Could a fuel filter be plugged that bad by un-seen particles??? Even if the battery is near death shouldn't the engine continue to run if the generator is turning? Even a dead battery is still connected in-line so a field should still be created by the generator. The engine should run until turned off .....more trouble shooting I guess...Steve

Hi thanks for putting up with us on this problem but we know all the discussion will help other newbies..
We installed a new yellow top Optima battery. I stretched the battery holder & hold down under the floor pan by one inch. Fuel at pump 5 pounds and added a new fuel filter. The vacuum at 19- 550 rpm timed 10 BTDC (as per Tom langdon). I was told in the electrical forum that a weak battery will not trigger the HEI. The engine would crank but not fire consistently and when it did it was terrible. The "old" battery was suppose to be (new) as per the PO....it was seven years old and even with a full charge it would never top 10 volts. The truck runs fine in the garage and up and down the drive way. I'm still a bit chicken to hit the road as another tow would be the end of both of us! Thanks for your time and the help! Steve