The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Engine Shop Lubrication between Leave Springs? UPDATE

While reading one of Denny Grahams post a short while back he mentioned he was going to assemble the leave springs as close to factory as possible .... including lubrication.

Now, I have both sets of my leaf springs a part and blasted primed/painted. \
QUESTION: what kind of lubrication would you put between the leave's when you assemble them back together. Some GRAPHITE? ANTI-SIEZE?? A light coat of regular grease??

EDIT for UPDATE in last post below.

I don't have an answer for factory lube. I don't ever remember seeing anything that looked like a residue from the springs being lube. I did rebuild the leaf spring in the rear of 77 Vette. There are some IIRC polypropylene inserts made for the Vette. The inserts are a little wider than the springs, because there is a lip on the edge to keep them from coming out. The inserts did make a difference in how it rode. Most lubes I would think would collect dirt, unless you wrapped them, like they did on some of the more expensive early cars.

Larry

Go down to Napa and with a straight face ask them for a 2.5 oz. can of leaf spring grease.

Most of the ones Ive seen were packed with a ton of grease and wrapped tightly with a heavy duty waterproof tape. Not factory, but effective.

Jeff

I totally disassembled my springs on my 37 truck a couple of years ago. I wanted to line each leaf of the springs with teflon. I had seen it done and I believe, Joe H. on this web site did such with his. I saw no sign of any grease on my springs and I believe I was the first one to disassemble them in the first 70 years of their life. I cleaned each leaf and carefully reassembled them. One thing I didn't count on was the extra thickness of the bundle of springs being larger with the teflon liners added. I had to make new "ties" from light weight steel for the springs. I reassembled the truck rear end with the newly lined springs and I was so surprised at how much better the truck rode and drove. The ride on the rear springs was excellent to what I was used to. The steering seemed easier on the front springs, although I don't know why.
Would I do it again - you bet! I think you'll like the results. By the way, I bought my lining material from Yogi's, on line.

How is the Teflon applied? This is interesting, I have never heard of this.

Beleive it or not, the "mummy wrap" was factory for many years, up to around '54 on cars at least.

I was watching a show and they had thin sheets of teflon that they cut to the shape of the leaves and then placed them between the leaves.

Jim

Yeah , teflon is good , Ive done buttons on one truck and strip on another.

1st truck , drilled 1/2" hole in first 3 leaves , just a couple of inches in from the tip of the leaf. A task all of its own. Turned up some 2" dia teflon pads (1/8" thick) with 1/2" peg for location. Crowbar apart spring tip, fit button , all good.

2nd truck , completely disassemble spring , cut 0.4mm teflon strip for all the leaves , reclamp strips together , all good.

On both trucks , the new , low friction springs got the better of the original lever action shocks and I had to fit quality tele shocks to tie the suspension back together (to stop bad axle bounce)

All VERY good.

I used delrin which is easier to machine than teflon, works just as well as a spring pad, and is 1/10th the cost of teflon. Delrin has the consistency of brass when machining. I machined a delrin bar into a u-shape to fit over the spring. Used the center bolt to keep everything in place. If wrapping the springs, a thin strip would be fine as the wrap would keep it from coming out the side, and the bolt keeps it from moving lengthwise.

UHMW is way too soft and extrudes out.

Alvin, from what I’ve been able to find, the springs from the factory were simply lightly oiled to prevent rusting. Mopar is using a type of damping grease in their leaf spring equipped vehicles but the Mopar parts department never heard of it. I suspect that it is only used when they are assembled at the factory. Disassembling a leaf spring is a rather rare occurrence for a late model vehicle in normal use. That’s usually reserved for us restorers or the off road guys that are always tearing up their rides. Running a spring dry does have a certain damping effect and that is probably why they are using damping grease. The damping grease dampens the action and at the same time it reduces the wear at the tips. Real lively springs reportedly don’t last as long as a dry stiff spring and that was why GM didn’t recommend using a lubricant.
Eaton-Detroit spring does sell liners and buttons, but both add thickness to the stack. They make note on their web page that these are “Delrin” not Teflon. They also caution against using chassis grease on any spring made past the early 50’s because the alloy changed and the grease will react with the metal and cause it to become brittle. I’ve never heard of such a thing before, but then again I’m not a 100-year-old OEM spring company either. And they stress that you shouldn’t paint between the leaves, only on the outside edges. When the paint wears away between the leaves the reduction in thickness causes the center bolt to become loose and allows the stack to move around. I would think you would have similar problems with a plastic liner also.
The way it stands right now, I’m just painting the assembled stack dry, then when the paint is dry I’m gonna loosen the stack and lightly oil them. As far as that collecting dirt I don’t think there is any way to prevent them from gathering dirt other than wrapping them as has already been mentioned. Some of the vintage cars did have metal shields and some of the real early ones even had grease fitting for greasing the springs. I think all of that is pretty much a waste of time and the fact that all of the later springs and those used today are simply assembled and run dry (or lightly oiled at first). I believe that what we see on all of the thousands of over the road trucks to day is evidence enough in favor of running a leaf spring dry.
Denny Graham
Sandwich, IL

Some Ford Model T outfit used to sell leaf-width Teflon strips for springs.

Older luxury cars has lace-on leather boots for springs.

Thanks to everyone for your comments. Like always, I learn something.
The PO of my panel had rebuilt the front springs and poly-liners installed. When I blasted my chassis I did not take the springs a part choosing to just POR15 the outstide. Well, after having to "fanagle" the rear end around to get ie centered I decided to drop the springs as I should have to start with. They're the only thing I didn't tear apart!!!
So, I am glad I did. The panel is from Illinois originally and there was literally a sheet/scale of rust on the "inside" of the springs. Some places pitted fairly good.
And as mentioned above, the "wear" is at the tips of the springs. Since this will be a drive ocassionally panel, and won't be carrying a heavy load I decided to reuse the springs although new ones would be nice....and really harmful to my budget. So, the next fellow will have to deal with them when I'm no longer around.
So, I decided to prime, to prevent the "rust pits" from continuing to rot the spring away and I did put a light coat of paint on them to prevent the "rust dust" from coming out the sides of the springs later on. I think I'm going to put a light coat of oil on the "inside" of the springs and call it a day.

BUT...before I "close them up" I may do one of the following.
**I do like the idea of the teflon buttons and with the wear "indentions" at the tips I might get my machine shop pal to cut me some 3/16" buttons and place them there??

**Just to be different I may see if he will cut me a "square U" shaped teflon piece to fit under the spring and then turn up the thickness of the spring. That way they won't come out?!

Thanks again for all the answers. As is most case's its up to the individual to decide whats best for them. At least I have more info now to make that decision. Thank you.

Alvin, the grease idea won't do much. I greased the heck out mine and after a month of driving it was all over the outsides and the leafs were back to metal to metal contact and even rusting some, thats why I went with the teflon liners. Speedway Motors and Yoji's ( http://www.yogisinc.com/Detail.cfm/-/Product_CD=2640/Category=1151/product.htm ) both sell it. Yoge's was better quality, but both worked OK. It works the same way as the buttons do, only no holes to drill. It looks like the old Hot Wheels orange race track, so install it with the grooves down and the will shed the water and dirt away from and not into each leaf.

Joe

http://www.yogisinc.com/results.cfm...poly%20ride%20spring%20liner/results.cfm

As I read now,it is actually poly. Feels and looks like teflon. It comes in rolls and you cut to length. They also sell the teflon buttons.

Just to "Return and Report"....

I ordered two rolls of the poly liner from Yogi. It comes in 20 ft. rolls and I need about 18' per spring assembly. It was $15 per roll for the 1 3/4" and the 2" wide was $17 a roll if I remember it correctly.

Ordering online saves 25% on shippping but "Georgiana" took my order over the phone and gave me the $2 savings on shipping.
Total bill delivered to my house $37.00.

I decided to do this based on the fact the springs do have wear at the tips and I figure this will at least slow down the wear AND add some smoothness to the ride.

Thanks for the link Joe and Joe!! I told her she needed to get her purchasing agent to contact Peggy and John and provide a link to their web site AND give stovebolters a 10-15% discount!!

EDIT: Now I may as well have my machine shop man make me two longer hard spring center bolts!!

The bolts should still fit, you won't gain much in thickness. While you have the springs apart, grind any sharp edge off the tips so they won't dig into the poly liner. I rounded each of mine over just a bit.

Joe

Anybody ever use graphite paint? I've seen it for sale at several different farm and ranch supply type stores. I know a couple of Model T guys (please don't shoot me for bringing Model T stuff to the Stovebolt site) who have had good results using it on the springs. Goes on like paint, dries like paint, and lasts a long time. Here are a couple of examples:

http://www.modeltford.com/item/3800P.aspx

http://www.tractorsupply.com/agricu...de-graphite-based-coating-1-gal--2120107

Bobby

Way back when a "service station" actually performed preventive maintenance (late 1950's), we offered spring leaf greasing as an extra-cost option to the normal lube job. I think the bump was an extra 25 or 50 cent charge to a $2.00 lube job. There was a wedge-shaped tool that was driven between the spring leaves with a hammer, and grease was pumped in through a hole in the tool connected to a standard grease fitting. A very small shot of grease was applied a couple of inches back from the tip of the leaf. For the amount of labor involved, I always thought we didn't charge enough, but most customers didn't go for the extra service anyway.
Jerry

Jery we still do that at work when the leaf springs really get noisy. It lasts a little while, but not long. Some of the special needs kids we haul have a hard time with strange noisy's.

Joe

"slip-paint"... man, I have learned a lot from these posting! Good ole Stovebolt stuff
Again, thanks to everyone for your input. At least to me this has been interesting. Right now I'm headed off down to my nephew's to press the rivets through the brackets/spring that keep them in line. (I got new metal and making new brackets)

Jerry..... I had totallly forgotten about greasing the springs until you mentioned it. ONE of my part time jobs in school was working at an old Shell station and we did that to some of the local milk/dairy trucks we serviced each month.... but, just as luck would have it there was always a stack of tires for me to fix as soon as I got to the station..... right after I finished my part time job at the Chev. Dealership after school each day. Man, what loong days they were, Whew!
Thanks for the trip back in time!!

I went to a garage sale and found a child's Magic Carpet. Its a snow sled which is basically a plastic sheet you roll up. I cut a bunch of strips the width of the springs and stuck them between the leafs (leaves). Works fine but, five years later, the are starting to wiggle out from action.
There are similar things you can buy from the hot rod shops that have a lip on each side to stop them from wiggling out.

olblu49...I ordered the poly liners from Yogi's, as mentioned above, and they have a "lip" just for that. Two rolls at 20 ft each were $15 a roll. Mine should be here tomorrow.

Keep us posted on how they affect the ride. My springs have the worn grooves across them where the adjacent spring has rubbed. My 'magic carpet' worked well over the grooves.

olblu49, I got the poly liner today. It does have a "lip" turned up on each side to help keep it correctly under the springs. It'll be a few days before I get it all back under the panel but I will get it done..BUT it maybe be 6 months before I get to ride in it..still much to do but I will keep you posted.

I used a material called "Black Ice" made by a company called TRAC Lubricants. It is an extreme pressure moly-disulfide air-dry solid film paint. I put it on all the springs on my 53 Dodge 1 ton Power Wagon. I also used it several years ago on all my Corvette springs. Works nice and took all the binding and popping out of the springs.

I have had main leaves made for the front of my '47 loadmaster. And I wonder about greasing the stack. I'll ask the maker. I was going to leave it dry for damping but the old leaves already have some wear from rubbing each other. My truck never had any shocks and I wonder about "bounce" or "liveliness". Those 11-leaf rears are rated at over 2000 lb each.
I dont think it will bounce- Each leaf on its own will ring like a tuning fork if hit with a hammer. But as a stack, they all have a different natural resonance and oppose each other. This will ensure that they respond to compression as a bunch but none on its own will cause later oscillation.
I know that plenty of leaf spring cars had greased springs, so I may do that, I have a local product called CRC soft-seal which is a dry grease type anticorrosive coating which may do the trick.

Your grease will no stay in the leaf pack. I tried it and after a few months I pulled it back apart, all the grease was gone from the wear points. The old cars used a burlap wrapped tightly around the pack with a sheet metal cover over that. I would bet even then the wear points were dry, but all that wrap and grease made them quiet so you thought it was working.

Try some of the teflon buttons or strips.

Hope your seat springs are soft!

Joe