The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area General Truck Talk Just how should that Advanced Design truck ride???

I’d like to talk about how an Advanced Design truck should feel when you drive it specifically a 3/4-ton. I’ve read where some guys describe their AD’s as having a nice ride. I understand that the call “a nice ride” is purely subjective and covers a wide range of opinions. I worked as a Chevy parts man starting back in 1959 in my last year of high school. People would still bring in AD’s for service once in a while and I’d driven several versions of them at different times even before starting at the dealership. Friends of mine had grain trucks and I’d driven a water wagon for a while at a sod nursery before I had a license. But I haven’t driven one for probably forty years and my memory has faded. I also don’t know anyone who can take me for ride in a stock AD so I really don’t have a feel for just what to expect.

I’m at the point where the only thing that isn’t completely new under the 1950, 3604 that I bought last year are the springs. I’m planning to have them gone over/rebuilt over the winter. I was very fortunate to have found an excellent candidate for restoration. It was in very good condition having served as the town fire truck from 1950 when it was new up until a few years back when it was replaced by a real fire truck. Kingpins were slightly worn but were replaced anyway, as were all of the brgs, steering components, shocks etc.

My first attempt at new rubber were four new bias plies, tubes and flaps, on the original 15” split rims. Looked real nice but the ride was just as everyone had warned me about, TERRIBLE! I could only tolerate that for about 700 miles and threw in the towel. Even after a ten-mile ride when the bias plies rounded out some, there was still lots of vibrations coming in at different speeds and lots of shaking in the tiller.

The latest approach to softening up the ride involves a new set of Cooper 16.5” tubeless radial tires on Chevy C20 rims. Truly a noticeable difference, no more square start-ups with the front fenders vibrating at a blurring pitch.
I’m getting a little drifting when on the road and even though the steering is quite free with the wheels off the ground she doesn’t snap back from a turn. I’m almost positive that the caster is on the light side or maybe even a little negative. I won’t know till I have the front end aligned. I think that having a little larger tire on the rear, 9.50R 16.5’s than the front, 8.75R 16.5 plus the fact that the front leaves are probably sagging a little is enough to reduce the caster to the point that it wants to drift some.

I realize that a 1950 3/4 ton truck is not going to ride anywhere near as smooth as a new 3/4 ton truck does. However I feel that with everything that has been done to this truck that I should be getting a little better ride than I am. Once over thirty and up to fifty which is as fast as I can drive her, I feel a periodic oscillation, a throbbing or pulsing felt through out the whole truck; it feels to me like the frame is flexing. It’s not in the steering wheel, which is nice and steady now and it’s not tire balance, we’ve spun the tires up on a brand new Coats dynamic balancer. I’m running the tires up at 50psi, 65psi is spec for full load on these ‘D’ load ratings but her hauling days are over. I suppose I could probably play around with tire pressure some.
The other factor in the ride may be the original springs. Very stiff and any factory assembly lubrication that was there in the beginning has long since been replaced with a thin film of rust, so the springs probably don’t do much work without a good big load, and my “big old wife” doesn’t qualify for that yet.
So I’d like to hear what you think of the way a stock Advanced Design truck should ride.
Denny Graham
Sandwich, IL

My one ton is a little longer, but otherwise very similar to yours. I have no idea how new trucks ride, but I know a bunch about old trucks.
Have you looked at the steady bearing? If there's any reason to replace it, do so. Try also putting a 700 - 1000# test load just forward of the drive axle, and see how that feels. If it makes a big difference, then yes. By all means screw with your tire pressures, and if that doesn't help, then get your springs overhauled. Removing one or more leaves will soften up the ride and remain safe if you don't load her, and there are teflon thingies they can put between the leaves to ease travel.

My truck feels its very best with 1000 - 1500 lbs low in the box. She wants to behave like a sportscar.

I don't know how it should ride but do know that my 49 rides very nicely. Smooth and quiet except for some wailing of the tranny bearings. Most people who ride in it are amazed at how smooth it actually is.
One thing I did was change the spring shackles/bushings all around. Prior to that when I would hit a good bump the sound was awful. My springs are original and have notched wear on them where the adjacent spring rides against it. What I did for that was get what people in the snow country call a "Flying Carpet".
Its a rolled up plastic snow sled. I cut narrow strips from it and placed them between my spring leaves.
I changed my front lever shocks for tubulars primarily because getting the lever shocks rebuilt is very expensive. My rear still runs lever shocks but they need rebuilding or replacing with tubulars.(next year) If I had a choice I would keep the lever types but at $500 to rebuild and have them shipped in/out is too much for my budget.
For tires I am running 650-16 Firestone bias-ply at 30 psi and I love them. I debated putting on radials but ended up with these. I would personally never run radials on this truck, but that is my opinion.
Finally as it was made to carry a load the truck can be light in the rear which on occasion creates a bit of a bounce. I guess if I had a few hundred pounds in the bed it would help.

Denny,
With the condition of what they insist on calling roads around here, even a new Caddy rides rough.

Bob

If you’re talking about the Center Support bearing Mark, yep, brandy new brg, rubber and all three U-joints are new and in phase. A new front yoke, seals and new slip joint packing. All of it was taken down to bare metal from the transmission case to the carrier case and sprayed with that cheap old semi gloss black Rust-oleum. Just a glance at a few pic should explain it best.
Well Bill you’re one of the dudes that prompted me to throw this out on the table. You say your truck rides nice and smooth, even with the worn out springs, old lever shocks, bias plies, tubes and flaps. Statements like that makes me wonder what I’m doing wrong. You do have a few things going for you that I don’t. One is that it’s a 1/2 ton and therefore sprung much lighter, also you made note that you have Teflon between the leaves which might help it ride a little better.
However, the GM manuals do warn against lubing the spring and I quite; “Springs are designed to operate without lubrication between the leaves. Lubrication other than provided at the time of assembly will cause too lively spring action, resulting in short spring life.”
Bob, one of these days I’d like to take a ride in one of yours to see what I’m missing by owning a 3604.

Denny Graham
Sandwich, IL

Denny:
I owned a 51 3100 back in the mid 60s. I used it for a daily driver and did a lot of hunting with it. The ride whether smooth or rough never entered my mind. I am certain if it had been a rough, bouncy ride I would have recalled that. Bottom line, a smooth ride...
Now the ride on my 3600 before I dismantled it was pretty rough, however I never carried anything heavy there. Had I carried any significant weight I am sure the ride would have been softer. My 2004 Ford 250 came from the factory with 123 psi in all 4 tires. The ride home was pretty rough to say the least. The recommended psi was 80 and helped smooth the ride when I dropped it down to that. I always maintained the psi at 60 when not hauling weight. Big difference in ride relative to tire pressure.
Pardon the ramble...

Denny,
I would say the ride in my 1 Ton is fairly smooth except when I encounter a certain train of bumps and then I get some good bounces. It steers just fine and doesn't wonder. Of course it doesn't resemble a modern vehicle with the very long steering ratio that it has. The 1 Ton doesn't have shocks in the back and the springs in the front are different than yours. I have radial tubeless tires that are tall and skinny and for light trucks. I don't have any vibrations of any kind.

denny, my 49 3600 rides pretty smooth and the only vibs are from the trany . when i first found it , it had not been driven much for several years and road stiffer than it does now. i heated all the spring bushing with the grease fitting out till the old dryed grease ran out . pumped new grease in and the shackles seem to work smoother now.
also this may sound silly, but the seat in my truck is in very good shape as far as the springs and padding goes and i believe that helps the ride.
any one notice that the steering wheel seems to get closer to your belt every year???

I find that the ride on my half ton is stiff but not bouncy. I went through the suspension and replaced all the spring shackles, bushings, u-bolts, and shocks on all four corners. That made a significant differance. It was originally bouncy, loose, and stiff. Now its just stiff, but it gets much smoother with 500 pounds or so in the bed. I have radial tires, it doesn't wander or vibrate.

I also have a very good condition original seat. I believe that really does improve the butt feel. These trucks have very short front leaf springs and they don't have much suspension travel.

One thing that can happen if you have old springs is that you wear a groove where each leaf rubs against the one above it. Then, as you hit large bumps, the leaves hang up on the grooves and make for funny stiff bounces. The only way to fix this is to get new springs.

like a truck.

Nahhh, I expect it to ride "like a truck", just like dale's curt reply. I'm aware that it's pretty hard to describe how something feels or rides, it's almost like trying to describe how something smells.
It's not really the ride that seems off to me. I expect a very stiff feel to the truck, I expect to feel about every bump in the road.
The seat was in excellent condition; I've posted pictures on my web shots album. It really looked like it was new except for the fact that the fabric had dried out and had a duct tape patch over the driver seat. So the new cotton pad and cover were all that were needed even though I disassembled it completely for inspection. It is quite comfortable even when out for a drive of several hours and it does have what you call a "nice butt feel".
One of the pleasant surprises when I got the truck up and started going over the underside was the fact that all twelve of the spring bushings took grease and they don't feel worn at all, no play. Shocks are new gas filled also.
There isn't any obvious notching of the spring leaves. I can see by the 1/8" or so of clean metal at each end of the leaves where they are working.
So here I am again trying to describe something that can't be transmitted through a text message. On a smooth road the bump feels normal, quite stiff, but there is this mild periodic shudder through the whole frame. The period of the oscillation is about every 3 or 4 seconds and then you feel a little shudder lasting for 1 or 2 seconds.
Oh well, I guess I’ll just have to live with it till I get the custom built fully independent tube chassis under her. Ya, right!!!!
Denny Graham
Sandwich, IL

I think your springs are binding from lack of "lubrication" or the accumulation of dirt and rust. It makes it feel like a solid suspension that way. The only way it feels better is when they're loaded up. I built a 1 ton chassis for a fellow 'Bolter and we bought some stuff made specifically for leaf springs. It called something like "Slip-Plate" or so. It's paint impregnated with graphite to prevent binding. He hasn't finished the truck yet so I can't comment on how well it worked. It's something to consider when you redo your springs,
Scott

Denny,
I had a simular vibration problem as to what you described in my 1948 3/4ton. It ended up being the slip joint in the driveshaft it had some wear in it and an odd vibration would start around 45 mph and was really noticable at 60mph. I coud tell it was not from the tires. Anyway I had the slip joint replaced and ballanced the driveshaft and that completely took care of the problem.

That shudder sure sounds like driveline vibration or failing U-joints.

You might try having your driveline shop check the balance of your driveline and the wear on the slip yoke-that sounds like a likely culprit.
Speed

Hi Scott, the springs appear to be working, although not much and I wouldn’t expect them to be working much without a load. What so you think of the WARNING that I quoted from the Service Manual about lubing the springs? Even of I don’t get to the point of getting the body off this winter, I’m still planning on pulling the springs to have them gone over. I can’t find anyone locally so I’ve been thinking about taking them up to Eaton Detroit spring and having them match them up and fix up anything that is wrong with them. Has anyone here ever had experience with Eaton Spring?
Come on guys, I’ve said it several times in this thread, when I say the drive line has been completely rebuilt with new parts that’s just what I mean. Not cleaned up, or re-built but all new. Three new u-joints, including a NOS front joint complete with its slip joint yoke and torque tube bushing and were those a bi*@h to find for a 3600. A new center support brg and rubber, the rear slip joint and spline didn’t show any wear at all and fit like a new one. Again, the center support brg is a hard to find but I found a NOS part.
I documented most of it when I did it. http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2496776410098611668vePRzQ http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2421733140098611668UuEbDZ
http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2631666620098611668hOlrTc
http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2601688260098611668neQxwi
Now I might give in to the idea that the drive shaft could be out of balance. There were no balancing weight on the shaft and no evidence that there ever was any. It cleaned up to bare metal very easily on a fine wire wheel with just the slightest amount of surface rust so we’re not dealing with an old rusty, pitted, thinned out tube. There were no dings or dents or pits in the shaft and it looked like a new one when it was reinstalled. I don’t have a picture of the drive shaft after it was wire brushed but it came out looking just like the torque tube shown in the last webshots link, which was only cleaned on a wire wheel.
Just to eliminate the drive shaft being out of balance I will pull it this week and have it checked. There just so happens to be a drive shaft shop in the next town over.

I fear that this is developing into another of those “never ending stories.” In the end one mans “smooth” may just end up being another mans “rough.”
Thanks for the input guys, every little bit helps to complete the puzzle, whether it’s a valid point or not, it does give me fuel for thought.
Denny Graham
Sandwich, IL

Hey Speed, I worked with a guy for 20 years who took his vacation in Elko, NV every year. He has no relatives or friends there, so what's the draw for a tourist?

Denny,

If it is driveline balance, it will also be unbalanced when sitting on a set of jack stands.

Try that first.

Then look at the suspension.

Beyond that, even new parts can be bad.

Good luck

Scott

Good idea Scott, don't know why I don't think of the most obvious things any more, must be old age.
Denny Graham
Sandwich, IL

Denny G

Denny, when I rebuilt the springs on my '37 1/2 ton, I ground off the sharp corners and the worn edges that had been cut into them. It wasn't much, but enough to let them slide and move around. I also smoothed all the flat sides to eliminate any binding. I then greased them all with Moly grease and assembled them. After a year or so and a few thousand miles, I started to play around with the teflon liner. I pulled the front springs off and replaced them with new,I was afraid of the grinding I did, and thought new ones might work better. I greased the new ones and drove another year like that, then gave up and installed the teflon liner. What I found when I pulled them apart was rust where they contact each other and grease everywhere else.
The Poly-liner solved all my problems, It really smoothed out the ride, plus it real quiet now.
I wouldn't worry about the overly bouncy ride the shop manual takes about. The grease won't last that long and the modern shocks will take care of the rest. Some of cars used burlap wraped around the springs and a steel case over that with grease fittings in them. I think the whole stack was cover in grease.

Let the tires down to about 40psi and see how she rides. Then talk with a spring shop about adding teflon buttons to each leaf, you will be glad you did.

My truck is very smooth and quiet on a smooth road, being a short wheelbase, it bounces like a Jeep does (front to back, bronco horse). With a loaded trailer to hold the back down, its much better. Joe

remember this tech tip for AD's

get rid of those old ball/ socket joynts

http://www.stovebolt.com/techtips/tie_rod_replacement.html
http://www.stovebolt.com/techtips/draglink_adjustable.html

Okey doky, as Scott suggested, got her up on the jack stands, told the wife to stay out of the kitchen till I was finished cuz we might end up with a 1953 Chevy truck in the breakfast nook. I took her up through 55mph and the oscillation was not there so I've eliminated that one, the drive shaft and drive line is OK.
It’s gotta be something to do with the flexing of the frame at 45mph like some sort of natural frequency of vibration at that speed. I’ve dropped the tires from 55psi down to 35psi and it makes a world of difference in the ride. Now up to about 40mph on a decent road it feels like my ‘97 1/2t Sierra, then the pulsing starts to come in and seems to max out at about 45. Over that it begins to fade away. At 50-55 I’m just getting a lot of normal vibration and noise from the engine screaming to keep up. (God I wish I could find one of them thar mythical 4.10 gears!!!)
I think the next step is to load the back down with a half-ton or so of sand bags and see what it feels like. I’m hoping that will change the normal mode of the vibration.

Jim, I’d beg to differ with ya on this one. Thar taint nuttin wrong with the old style steering components if ya keep them greased, adjusted and replace the parts as they get worn. Replace them when they get worn is the key statement here! Everything that can be replaced on mine I’ve replaced with new, including the balls. These old vehicles just need a lot more maintenance than the new stuff. I was just commenting to my sister the other day that you can drive the newer cars 100,000 miles before you open the hood but you need to pop the bonnet every time you pull into the garage with these old ones. You gain no physical advantage with new style tie rod ends and drag link other than longevity, ease of maintenance and wheel clearance. In other words, she taint gonna steer any better.

Now considering myself as somewhat of a purist, I did let down my originality guard on the tires and rims and mounted up some radials. My justification here was that the bias ply tires that are being sold today, (I bought Power King, Chin origin I believe) are not being made to the same standards that they used to be here in the states. Flat spots have always been associated with bias ply tires after sitting for a while, but I never, ever, remember having this much trouble with a bias ply and I rode on nothing but from 1942 (home from the hospital) till 1973 when I got my first radial. Also I used bias plies well beyond that first set of radials that got in ’73. The other reason for straying from original style parts was the refusal of most tire dealers to work on a two-piece rim. If I were out on a trip and needed tire service I have a lot better chance of getting a flat fixed if I have a newer style tubeless radial to work with. For show I still have the bias plies and split rims stacked up in the corner.
Denny Graham
Sandwich, IL

I sure cant wait to drive my 3100 out in the open road and see how it drives,my whole final plan with brakes totally depends on that!!!!!!!I ran it up to 65 mph in the stands the other day and felt no funny vibrations or noises,my hopes are up!!!!!!!!!!