The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area General Truck Talk Made in the USA with pride?

I don´t want to offend anybody but today I recived an other "Made in America with pride" product.

My first experiance with this kind of quality was Offenhauser.

The side cover took 1 hour on a mill to make it square enough to seal.

The valve cover had the mounting holes to far appart.

The intake also was more than lousy machined.

Next where the Fentons :rolleyes:
aaahhh... ya al know the what I mean - the board is full of them.

Clifford Intake and adapterplate - holes not matching - up to 1 milimeter. The other holes do not match the carb pattern to. Nothing I can`t fix but for $45 they could employ someone that can handle a ruler and a drill.

Today the stainless steel headers from Norco arrived and raised my bloodpreassure to unhealthy levels.

Flanges are bend up to 3 milimeters they welded the flanges from the gasket side only but left a 2-3 millimeter welding seam standing there. Happy grinding and hope they don`t fall appart :mad:

Some Clown even mangaged it to weld the name plate with the Norco logo upside down on the headers.

Is that normal or am I just a painstaking picky meticulous German?

What happens to Made in the USA?

I mean all this stuff is`n cheap for what it is - rather raw aluminum and iron cast. When it comes out of the box it looks more like India or China made.

How about Quality Control? Products like this would never even leave the factory over here.

Sorry I yust had to vent this off.

Frank

Those products are all cheap chinese knockoff's... (the tip-off is the "k" in Amerika).

Keep us posted on your progress tho... and good luck with your purchases.

I wouldn't be surprised if they were fakes. If I were in your position I would contact the vendor first. Second I would contact the manufacturer. I saw a documentary on TV a year or so back about golf equipement that was pirated in China that looked so good they couldn't tell them apart until they cut them up to look at the insides. The company started getting quality complaints & discovered the forgeries when they investigated. To build on RR's post. The FTC label for a US made product is "Made In USA".

I wish they would be cheap. You know how much an Offy intake is. Plus I have to pay $75 more for shipping to Germany plus 35% import tax.

I mean how much is it actualy and how much profit do they make on it? I bet over 500% when made in India or China.

Duh! Expensive hoppy over here.

The "k" was my typo :o


@Tiny

The Offenhauser stuff came from Langdon,
Fentons from Patricks
Clifford from Clifford
And the Norco headers from Hotrods of Norco.

I bet at least all the usual Offnhauser and Fenton Equipment that is offered by our usual Stovebolt vendors from Langdon to Chevs of the 40s is made by only one Company somerwhere in China.

I would have no problem with this - but usualy you get what you paid for - well... not in this case.

Stovebold,

I think the problem lies in the fact that these are truly 'specialty' items. They come from contracted foundries and small time suppliers.

These folks have no true quality control department, and probably pay low wages with quick employee turnover.

I would classify the Stovebolt speed equipment manufacturers as almost a cottage industry.

This isn't an excuse for not having the hole in the proper place, or making the header flange flat, but keep in mind, this isn't BMW or General Electric.

I am a tinkerer, so I am not devastated when I have to use my die grinder to oblong a hole that isn't right.

Most American quality went overseas, lots is still around, but maybe lacking in the 'niche' speed equipment market.

Stuart

AMERICA is a small town somewhere in Asia.

I had no problems with my clifford stuff.

Could it be that they were made in Brizil, South America?

Hey Stovebolt, I am looking for a Swimmwagen,(german military amphibious 4x4 Volkswagon) Seen any? Also would like a command car (4x4 VW beatle with no doors)

Hey Frank,
No offense to me. I think this is a serious issue you've brought up. Especially given the fact that you have to pay a premium just to get the parts to you. If, in fact, the quality is poor then I think you need to let the suppliers/manufacturers know, instead of spending hours trying to make things fit right. I know that waiting for the correct fitting parts is a hard thing to do, but unless these manufacturers know that something's wrong, then nothing's going to change. In America we always SAY that we are committed to quality but I think sometimes it just becomes another "buzz word" of industry and then true quality goes by the wayside. Just slapping a sticker or plate on a part that says "Made with Pride in the USA" is an easy thing to do, but it's no guarantee of quality because, at the end of the day, that part was made by someone who maybe couldn't care less about quality. They just have to make 10 widgets each day. It's a sad truth. America is not perfect, but one thing I'll say is that if you let a company know that something's not right, they'll work HARD to try to make it right for you.

Best of luck with this problem and with your truck.

The American labor force sucks just like the general population does and it is getting worse every day. If you want quality products that were made with the true pride that used to exist in America you have to look outside this country or be lucky enough to find the one remaining old man from the past who still has some pride.

Having worked in manufacturing as a shop floor worker making parts nearly all my life I believe you paint with too large a brush. A worker will provide the quality demanded by the company they work for. Granted there are a few who don't care but from personal experience they are one in a hundred. Nearly everyone I worked with took pride in their work, often being turned down for wanting to make a better part than the company's bean counters demand. My experience from the inside is that many manufacturers use the "quality" buzz word but fall far short when quality costs money. I can't count how many times I've seen quality take second place to schedule and profit. A lifetime of personal experience, from an insider's perspective, forces me to place the lion's share of blame for poor quality on the manufacturer.

MIke,

IF the American labor force sucks its because we have have allowed it to. Those of us in position to make a difference have not instilled the correct mind set into the younger generation. We have become a society of throw away everything and quanity over quality. If you do the crime you don't do the time, because you weren't hugged enough or hugged to much when you were younger. Accountablitly for your own action have gone out the window.
Sorry for the rant everyone, this topic just hit me wrong.

As a retired American Worker I take umbrage at your statement. You don't know me or my work. You make a callous, unsupportable statement, damning me and all I know. You sir are entitled to your opinion but opinions, as are backsides, are often oversize and malodorous.

"I would like to be allowed to admire a man's opinion as I would his dog - without being expected to take it home with me." Frank A. Clark

My opinion, take it or leave it, is that the level of quality has declined over the years. I see a big difference in the attitude of the prior generation, mine, and young adults. In each succeeding generation there does seem to be less pride in the workmanship. It seems that more and more, the workers in this country just want to do good enough not the best they can. What is the driving force behind this? I can only assume that there is a general decline in the idea of absolute right and wrong and an increase in the idea of entitlement (a belief that you have a RIGHT to whatever it is you want, and everybody else needs to make sure you get it).

Takes a little bit of courage to vent about this subject, as pride is certainly involved.
Hard to say anything in general about manufacturing in this country. Because there is so much, there has to be some that falls short of ideals.
However, especially in our small market I found to be a lot more good and honest than bad and poor quality.

I am glad for the many classic car enthusiasts that somebody makes new production parts at all for this comparatively unprofitable market....Perfect or less than.
It's good to even have it available. Many just don't have the patience or skill to acquire or restore original stuff.

I guess there is always some trade off, unless you do it all yourself.

I have only ever bought original equipment for my daily Chevy, except for fuel pumps, tires, batteries, rubber parts, etc...
To me it's part of the whole experience and reason why I never owned another vehicle in my life - I just like the original stuff from the days.

Years ago I bought the infamous offy dual intake when I found out it was still made by the same foundry.
....waited 6 months and when I turned it upside down, I instantly noticed the four holes were drilled an 1/8" to one side off center...
Like most of us, I made it work for me rather than complaining and returning it and just leaving me with nothing but frustration and anger.
I understand that offenhauser only casts so many units once or twice per year, to make it worthwhile for them.
The worker who machined the holes is probably at minimum wage and apparently never done anything like this before.
Quality control may have been there, but probably after all the fresh casts were already drilled.
Can anybody blame them for shipping the units instead of melting them down again....?
Casting this stuff is so much work for so little profit - they probably use a different worker next time around.

Is it the manufacturer's or vendor's fault and are they careless and grabbing for money ?
OH NO !! - not at all.
They just run a business, instead of being artists which put their own family name on their own handmade product....that's all.
Today's workforce and skill and care level could not possibly be the same on average as it used to be 50 years ago.
The economy and workers rights and demands have changed quiet a bit.

I can't even imagine living across the pond and restoring a classic American car.
My hat is off to you guys out there - when you all get to you drive down the road it must be quiet an experience.

I didn't say that 100% of all workers suck but I know from over 25 years experience in manufacturing that 75% of them do. A team is required to succeed and the weakest link controls the final quality. You can do perfect work and have a huge chest filled with pride while the idiot sitting next to you will destroy it.

I think there are many reasons behind the demise of the U.S. manufacturing segment. "Demise" might even be too strong of a word, but there certainly has been a decline. It's hard to compete with manufacturing in China, Taiwan, Mexico, etc. who can turn out virtually the same part at a fraction of the cost, thereby saving the consumer money. We're all into saving money, right? Most people will simply go with the least expensive alternative. What you get for the money is another subject altogether, but it can certainly be argued that the quality will suffer. However, the popularity of foreign cars, specifically from Asian countries, has been bolstered by their attention to detail and the continued quality improvements that they are incorporating into their products every year. They're listening to the consumer and making things better. I've bought nothing but American cars now for the last 20+ years, but that is a conscious decision on my part to be proud of what we produce and to drive it.

I think the American workforce is frustrated. That has led to a certain degree of apathy about their jobs. We've got great people here and they've proven time and time again that they can do a great job at whatever it is they're asked to do. The lack of concern for quality (really just a lack of attention to detail) can have thousands of reasons behind it. These reasons can be business-driven, personal, etc. It's a HUGE issue.

Maybe the OFFY jig/model is AFU??? and all of them are drilled wrong?

But we all just shrug our shoulders, and fix it.

I ran a shop... everyone is fat dumb and happy... until i'm at the bar drinking a beer or three with one of my compadres... he said... "dude, why do you keep sending me BAD components?"... i'm like DUDE... everything is QA'd (quality assurance) before it goes out the door, and we AINT getting any complaints!!!! ... well.. every 3rd tranny doesnt work right... ok, I'll have a look see in the shop, and I'll get back with you...

The next day, ole Rusty Rod sneaks out of the office, low crawls past the MGYSGT, into the drive train shop... "HEY... what's up?"... ole Lance Cooley Umpteefratz says.. just building a tranny sir!! welllll what do you know, me thinks.. tell me what you do to these things.... how do you check them out... (they put it in 1st gear and spin the input shaft, output shaft turns, it must be good) ok.. who checks your work... "I do says Lance Cooley Schmuckatelly, we check each others work"... yikes me thinks... here lies the problem... insufficient test equipment and inexperienced Mechs checking each others work... I fired up ole SSGT Squaredaway, and had a couple of the NCO's build some adapters so that we could spin the drive train components through all the gears ect...

Guess what??? the complaints stopped, for the most part.

RR - THAT is what's missing in (much of) today's American manufacturing! Someone who has enough concern to investigate and get down to the root of the problem. Not to mention that so many people are just plain scared about losing their jobs or are too complacent to care, that they don't open up to the right people about what they KNOW is wrong with something. That is until you get a few cold ones in 'em. Then you can get somewhere.

I think management has a lot to do with this. People have the impression that management doesn't care. And it's probably a well-deserved opinion. Watch, "The Office" just once and you'll see what I mean. It's supposed to be funny. Unfortunately, I think they hit the nail on the head more often than not.

Does "Dilbert" run in your paper? If not you should look it up online and read some of the strips. Talk about hitting the nail on the head.

"Made in USA" just don't mean what it used to,,I doon't care whether its tilet paper or car parts-quality just ain't the same. Brian

Yeah, Tiny. I hear you on that one. Dilbert is hilarious. Unfortunately, once you stop and think about it, it's all too often true what goes on in that strip. He (Scott Adams, I think) is/was a PacBell employee in their office in San Ramon, CA. He just started putting the stuff he saw there into his comics. Really strikes a nerve.

OHMYGAWD! I didn´t know that I gonna start such an avalanche with that post.

All kinds of social, economic and even philosophic answers. WOW!

What I wanted to say is, you usualy get what you pay for.

Buy some cheapo china made gasoline camping latern instead of the $$$$ Coleman and burn down your camper (don`t ask me how I found that out :rolleyes: )

O.K. it was my decicion to save some bucks.

But when I buy (AND PAY!! for) "Made in America" or "Made in Germany" because I learned my (Camper/Coleman/pantsonfire) lesson and still get the China stuff, that`s where I see the problem.

This is what the site where I got the "quality" headers from says:

Sounds good huh? Yeah sure!

It has nothing to do with wokers, workforce, unions and whatever. It is nothing but a simple fraud.

Some guy has some low paid guys bolt together some low quality headers somewhere in Mexico and sells them with some fat profit.

Frank

Hang in there stovebold, apologise for your problems from the USA. Guess we all have our cross to bear.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Stovebold:
[QB] OHMYGAWD! I didn´t know that I gonna start such an avalanche with that post.

What I wanted to say is, you usualy get what you pay for.


Well, Geez, Frank! Why didn't you say so in the first place! Would have saved everybody from a whole lot of reading and posting and such. Actually, I think this was a good discussion. Now we've got half of the worlds' problems solved.

Just standard American advertizing and sales pitch....around since the good ole 50s - just peek into your old hot rod magazine ads.
I love those early fuel saving devices from the 40s and the ads...very entertaining, but not much has changed since then.

Advertizing or sales people will always tell you what you want to hear. Not to be taken literally, especially if they offer a warranty or refund policy.

Of course even the best companies sometimes have a product falling short of their standards.
If you contact them politely and with patience, you will quickly find out if it was a honest mistake that can be fixed or if it really was a scam....

Great! So we go and solve that other lousy half next week and then go back under the truck to do some real work.

I already can see the headlines: Stovebolters saved the world! Next campaign: Making real good Fentons

Frank

There was a program on PBS last night about the sweat shops in the Marianas. Seems they are an American territory. They are pumping out all kinds of clothing and they are all labelled "Made In USA". Legally apparently.

So much has been said and it is correct. Now, what we gonna do about it?? First let me say I spent 37 years in textile mfg'ing and advanced up the ladder. I always told my crews "do NOT sacrifice quality for quanity" and never put production ahead of Safety. Strange, it took me two years, in one place, and only one year in another, to have the best depts in the entire company. The only "agreement" when going to work for them was that I hired my own people and I would fire on the spot if situation deemed it necessary. Then I told the crews what was expected out of them. Gave them the tools to do the job and got the hell out of the way. They knew their jobs. Next, I didn't put up with any BS,absentee problems, and lying, or dishonesty. Turns out the other depts always tried to copy me. I ate in the canteen with the "guys", cried with them, bought them a drink now and then. I was told by the CEO's that I sided with the employees to much until they learned what my depts quality, labor cost, and production was then they shut up! NOW, bear with me one more minute here. I agree with lots that has been said but the CONSUMER has the power to chang things. Don't buy off shore goods for 6 months, or longer and just watch what happens, but we all have to do it together to have our voice hear. Let the companies know it! JUST this week I called Welch's Juice company to complain about their decetful LABELS. When I told them I was thinking about sending the labels to Consumer Reports "selling it page"(misleading advertisments) I ended up talkling to two differnt marketing people, conversation recorded, and a promise that the marketing people would review it.ALSO will receive coupons in the mail for Free Juice etc. Now, if they get enough complaints they will "truth up" but not just for only me. Now if we do not buy off shore the die hard liberals here will say a lot of americans will be out of work. WELL HELL, no one is cherry. I now have been in 3 plants that close due to imports. Maybe a Depression is what this country really needs to wake it up. The folks willing to make sacrifices(no Ipods etc) will survive and learn something. I had mortages, payments etc. Hey, I cut firewood, painted houses for those that did have money, did some mechanic work, ceiling work, what ever it took. No food stamps or "give me" programs". I'll quite here but would love to say more. People get off their candy A** and go to work. Send the ILLEGAL immigrants back and close the borders. AMERICA SHOULD COME FIRST.

Good old American consumerism. Or is it global at this stage. Either way most of us are guilty.

A agree with you Achipmunk BUT where does one buy anything that is not made offshore. My Eddy Bauer shorts, my Adidas shoes, my Fruit of the Loom t-shirt and even my Boeing aircraft cap are made offshore. Would love to but home grown but I just can't find it.
BTW I saw a Chevy hearse today, they exist!

This poor quality control is not a new thing, I acquired a '50's model set of Fentons and a Nicson 2 carb manifold for my GMC. They took a lot of "fitting" to make them work. I guess because I came from the generation that was used to making our own "hot rod" parts so didn't think too much about it, but come to think it over even in the "good old days" it was a problem too.

Shipping is high everywhere. I need two rear wheel gaskets that go between the wheel and rear hub, they cost $ .50 each, but want $7.00 shipping. Guess I will make my own.

I agree with about everything you said but I'm having trouble understanding this line. This line says, paraphrasing 'If we don't buy imports the liberals say a lot of Americans will be out of work'. That doesn't make sense to me. That's saying liberals WANT you to buy imports. That's exactly backward. Labor Unions (about as liberal as you can get) WANT you to buy American to protect their member's jobs. It's buying off shore (imports) that's costing Union jobs. Am I not understanding your point? :confused:

Your point about the consumer having the power to fix the problem is dead on. As long as we, the consumer, demand cheap at all costs, cheap is all we'll get and American manufacturing jobs will continue to go away. On the other hand if the consumer perceives value in keeping American's working, supporing families, the job loss can be turned around.
Store owners want to sell product to buyers. If buyers ask for, and are willing to pay a little more for, American made goods, the store owners will ask their suppliers for American made goods. If enough store owners ask for American made goods the manufacturers will respond as well. It is power to the people in it's simplest form.

Tiny, let me see if I can say what I meant by die hard liberals.... I always think faster than my fingers can go. Here is what I mean... if we stop buying off shore goods that means we will not be buying stuff at say at wal-mart, Belks, Dillards and other places so the politicians would be saying look at all the American workers that are out of a job..at Walmart etc because we won't buy the junk. Hope this is clearer?? I may add that YES I will pay more for American made goods if the china crap stops. In actuality most would save money. Instead of buying two cheap shirts at 10 each we would buy one good shirt for 15 and wear it for 3 times longer. I would bet there are few of us, except children, that could not go for AT LEAST one year and never buy shirt/pants etc. By the same token if all us stovebolters could join forces and say the same thing we could come out better. Maybe it would mean our trucks sit for awhile longer but hey, when its done it will last another 60 years...AND yes, I always ask "do you have anything American made". I like to ask this especially at shoe stores. Some do have a couple American made but most say no. Pertaining to "shoes" I recently found a "Heel Bar" that can make you a taylor made pair for $150 or less which for me is more than I have ever paid for any shoe but when the "now generation" is paying 150 plus for a pair of tennis shoes it becomes more attractive and they will feel better And last longer. (their 150 shoes cost 15 bucks. How do I know? I worked for a company that made the fabric for them and also know the "cost breakdown" ...so, I'm going taylor made...and eat less Hardee biscuits for a month!!