The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area General Truck Talk Rivet replacement

I have had good success finding answers to my problems by doing searches here but this one I haven't found my answer on.

I have to replace my rear crossmember on a '56 3600, the very last one before the bumper. I have drilled and pounded out the rivets but wondering about bolting it back in. At the thickest, where the rear spring shackle mounts to the frame, the stack up is maybe 1/4" thick and the rivet hole is .410 dia. needing a drill out to 7/16 dia. Looking at bolts fitting these parameters I find they are threaded up to under the head which, if used, provides only threads for bearing surface dia. for the components.

What is a boy to do in this situation? As much as I would like to re-rivet it together, it is only me doing the work and think there would be more swearing involved than I do when I whack my head or hand.

Any bolt that can slide through a hole (7/16 bolt in a 7/16 hole) is not supplying any lateral support unless the parts have already shifted. Bolts secure things by clamping force.
A case could be made for taking the shortest bolt with an unthreaded shoulder (1/4 inch long), drill the hole hole undersized by a 64th or 32nd depending how the bolt mic's and draw it through with the nut. That would be as close as a bolt could do to pretending it was a rivet.
Another choice would be to bolt it in normally, then drill 2 holes through the joint on each end and drive a pin into the holes to lock it into position (1 bolt and 1 pin = 1 rivet)

You may have to use a bolt with a non-threaded shoulder longer then you need, then cut threads down to where you want them. Once that's done, cut the extra length of threads off. Pretty much make the bolt that you can't find. A new sharp die with good cutting oil will make short work out of most bolts. Grade-8 bolts cut a little hard, but most any grade-5 will thread pretty easy. I would use a grade-5 bolt.
Drill the hole slightly smaller then the shoulder of the bolt, then when you draw the nut up tight, it will align the parts and fill the hole completely. You may have to use a metric size the stay undersize of the standard bolt, or even the other way around using a metric bolt. You can always get a reamer in almost any size you want, check with McMaster Carr, they have everything.

Joe

If it were me I'd rivet any accessable holes and bolt the hard to get to ones.

Have you looked at Big Flats Rivets?

http://bigflatsrivet.com/

They have an instructions page that might also help you.

Mike B

I have done a shackle flip to a TF rear using donor brackets and made hangers for the front, motor mount cross members, tranny cross members, etc. All bolted. I fail to see exactly what your problem is or what you are asking? Are you bolting a cross member back on? or a cross member AND a shackle bracket/hanger? Whatever you are doing, just bolt it together. No need for rivets. Line drill if you want parts to be super aligned, but not necessary. That geometry is not Space Station quality. But again, I don't actually know what you are bolting and why you are worried about threads/non threads in a hole. There are several reasons the factory used rivets. Cheap, fast (at the time), strong, won't come loose (a bolt won't either) and when you have parts made, with several mounting holes, made at different factories/vendors on different machines and the location of those holes have a tolerance, holes must be larger to accommodate that tolerance. Rivet holes can be line drilled and/or the rivet swells to fill any mis-alignment. This aspect of riveting is more important on precision parts. These are not precision assemblies. Bolting is OK. If an assembly is not line drilled/match drilled there will always be larger holes than the fastener, even when riveting. Riveting a truck frame would take knowhow, the proper big solid rivet and some honkin tools. Some of which most of us don't have. I sounds like you have a normal situation where you hand bolt everything together, check for straight, plumb, function and torque'em down. Grade 5 bolts with flat and lock washers. All above is my opinion using some knowledge and experience. Others have different knowledge and experiences.

http://devestechnet.com/Figures/framerivets.pdf

Riveting is the only way to make it authentic, but grade 8 bolts of the right size with the proper hardware would work in hard to reach places. Riveting is stronger if the holes are not warbled out. Repair them first.

Use an Allen-head shoulder bolt and ream the holes for a snug fit for the bolt shoulder. There are plenty of sizes and shoulder lengths of those bolts on Ebay and reamers of the proper size are available at Victor Machinery Co.

www.victornet.com

Jerry

http://www.mcmaster.com/#shoulder-bolts/=10ta6m0
If parts have more than one hole, you will have to line ream/match ream all parts together if you want the "rivet effect". Won't be easy. You may end up with a big hole. Again, once I realize the goal and what you are fastening, I may change my recommendation of using bolts, but I doubt it.
This is a pretty simple problem, it does not matter how thick the stack is. If you drill out to 7/16 what bolt are you going to use? A 7/16 may not fit into all the holes, if there are several holes in several pieces, due to tolerance build up. Can you just use 3/8 in a .410?

If you want it to look original you can use hot rivets. If you want it to be structurally sound, I would use flange bolts.

http://www.imperialsupplies.com/item/0191620?service=/browse/

Up until about 15 years ago large trucks were put together with flange bolts. They now use Huck bolts simply because they are quicker and cheaper. We do frame alterations all the time and use flange bolts. If a 5/8 flange bolt and flange nut will hold an 18 wheeler together, a 7/16 flange bolt will certainly be overkill for a pickup.

I agree with Crenweldge.
Hot rivets can be done if you like.
Quick solution is flange bolts.

Finster, Reading over this thread... you just got about 300 years-worth of experience in all this advice.

Welcome to Stovebolt & good luck.
Brad

The rivets were nice because they filled he holes completely and made a good tight fit. The only thing I can add to what has been said is that if you want a tight fitting bolt that truly fills the holes then I like what Joe H. had to say and I might add that if you need a bit just a "tat" under or over size they made "number" drill bits that will fit the bill. Otherwise I agree with Crenweldge. I also like flange bolts. I've found them at Ace Hardware an now I think even Lowes has a draw of them.
As you can see, lots of ways to skin a cat!

I'll be using 1/2" flange nuts & bolts to install the main frame crossmember replacement on my '46 1.5 ton...but...the argument I got from an engineer friend (ex-NASA) was that hot-bucked rivets form a completely different type of attachment. Because the rivet expands to fully fill the holes as well as compress, it will transfer any structural load across the opening as if there were no hole. A bolt, no matter how snug fitting can only apply compressive force. In other words...anywhere there is a hole with a nut & bolt, the material is compromised by the removal of that mass. But a properly formed hot bucked rivet will act as if it is part of the surrounding mass.

He used a lot of much bigger words but that's what you get when you talk to rocket scientists.

Like I said...I'm still going with big [censored] bolts.

Thanks for all the replies and links. Most of the rivets are inside the C channel of the frame and close to the crossmember. Normally I am anal about detail, I am a long time tool and die maker with two engineering degrees, but where the majority of the rivets were/are located I just see a lot of misery trying to re-rivet. I was considering buying bolts with shoulders and running a die down them to make a short shoulder but asked to see what others may have done in a similar situation. Hole size vs bolt dia noted.

The heat for setting the rivets would be nice, my gay-raj was down to 32 degrees this Friday and the cold tools are miserable on my old hands. Takes a while for my wood stove to get the air warm but the tools stay cold unless I place them near the stove to warm up some.

Off to check the links......t/y

The shouldered Allen bolts I mentioned are available on Ebay in a bewildering assortment of diameters and shoulder lengths, so you shouldn't have much difficulty finding something that will be a good fit. I'd also consider using a flanged nut on the thread side of the shoulder bolt for extra holding capacity. Victor has chucking reamers in .001" graduations below about .500" or so, which should make for an almost rivet-snug fit with a little tinkering to match up shoulder diameter and reamer size.
Jerry

I don't like the idea of Allen shoulder bolts or "stripper bolts" for use on frames.
Most of them I've seen which might have a suitable shoulder size usually have a much reduced thread size.
For example a common 3/8" shoulder bolt only has 5/16-18 threads and the threads have a generous undercut at the shoulder.

Also taking a clue from truck manufacturers they use flange bolts or Huck bolts or rivets. I haven't seen a shoulder allen bolt used in frame construction.

Here's a catalog with pictures of various fasteners for truck repair. Flange bolts on page 24
http://www.duncanbolt.com/images/truck_trailer_fasteners.pdf

http://www.volvette.com/SU02B.html

Looks like someone makes a bolt that looks like a rivet. See link. I have not tried them. I used grade 8 bolts as I was not sure how tight I could get the item shown in the link.