The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area General Truck Talk Vintage Air or Old Air? Who would you use?

So, I will be installing A/C in my '52 when I get to that point in the restoration. Never too soon to be thinking that far ahead. Anyway, i cannot decide between Vintage Air and Old Air's system.

Vintage Air looks like this: Vintage Air

And, Old Air looks like this: Old Air (design that uses the speaker grill for air vents, they have the undermount air plenum style, similiar to Vintage Air, as well.)

I like the idea of the hidden Old Air design.

What do you prefer/recommend and why?

Don't have either but I like the Old Air design better. The other one looks like an after thought, a clunky add-on.

Me too, just a bit worried about airflow. Get's really hot here in Austin, TX in the summer.

I have no experience with either but I've heard you lose your glove box with the vintage air system.

Not all of it. If you look at the photo in the link above, you can see the new molded plastic glove box...much shallower than stock. Definately an acceptable price to pay for A/C comfort.

We used Vintage Air in the 50 I'm helping build. We got a revised glove box so that it would still function.

Moves lots of cold air, and non of the works shows.

I thought it looked pretty good.

It has one long piece that start just right of the steering column and goes all the way to the right hand door. Has three vents in it along with the controls. Then it has one smaller piece that goes next to the driver door for the vent.

They sent hoses, connections, dryer. We told them what engine we were using and what side we wanted the compressor to mount. Also whether we were using a short or long water pump. They sent the brackets we needed also.


We did have to get two relays to make the cooling fans come on either from the coolant temp or when the a/c was turned on.

I'm only a few days or weeks away from ordering a Vintage Air kit. Well most of one, I don't care for the under dash vents, think they look pretty out of place in a nice looking truck..

Asked an Old Air vendor if they'd sell the speaker vent seprate and they wouldn't, said it also included the lever controls. Plan to just fabricate what I need for a speaker grill vent. I'll figure out the vents one way or another... I know the best place for them is under the dash but I think it looks bad, I'm willing to compromise.

Not having used either I chose Vintage because of the hardware, electric controls, plenty of options on every part of the system, supposedly excellent service and Dealer support and numerous good reviews on sites like this and the HAMB. Speaking of, I'm an Alliance Member and with the 10% discount many vendors give I'll not only pay for the membership but also save money on the AC kit. Kikin Streetrods is who I've been talking to about the VA kit. There are other Alliance Vendors that will give a discount on the Old air kit if you chose that brand. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/?page_id=176

Grigg

Sache has a pretty good selection of vents for these old trucks. Might look and see if they have something you like.

http://sachserodshop.com/web_air%20conditioning.pdf

You do have to scroll down quite a bit to find the different vents.

Roy Rogers, did your "revised" glove box come with the kit??
If not where did you get it?

Yes, the revised box came with the kit. I think Vintage Air also offers it as a separate item too.

The more I think about it the more I am leaning toward Old Air for the interior (evaporator) package. Aside from the obviously add on look of the Vintage Air air plenum, I am worried that the low position will simply chill the passengers knees more than anything else. I once owned a '73 BMW 3.0CS that had only center console a/c vents and no matter how I positioned the vents, my right knee always got way too cold. But, only having the center vents was not too much of a problem cabin comfort wise. I suspect the Old Air setup would be similiar.

Also, I have a Bosch compressor, condenser, and condenser fan from a BMW 323i that my son totalled and I parted out. I am hoping I can graft these components in place. I would have to make my own brackets for sure. Should not be too much of a problem.

I was talking with a friend who is installing A/C in his old chevy. He said to look out for the intake designs. Some take air from the inside only. These will fog up your windows. Look for the designs that offer air intake from the outside.

From what I've seen most of these aftermarket AC units only use the inside air. Which is equivalent to the "max AC" setting in your new car.
With the AC on they dehumidify the air and reduce fogging.

If you still have a cowl top or side vent you can let outside air in anytime you want.

Grigg

Agreed, outside air contributes to fogging. A/C systems do a wonderful job of drying the air, so recirculating and cooling only cabin air is the best defogger there is.

But, in the winter you want warm air, which works well also. On many mondern cars when you turn on the defrost setting, you get both: first the air is cooled by the a/c to help dry it, then it is heated before exiting the vents.

On my daily driver, I have to leave the a/c compressor switched on even in the winter or the windows almost instantly fog (HVAC in auto mode) in all but the dryest of days.

I have the Vintage Air set up on my 1962 C10. It came with three vents, one for the each corner of the dash and one for the center. They blend in well and provide plenty of airflow.

The controls use the original factory controls, and the main unit replaces the factory heater/defroster unit. As was stated earlier, I lost part of the glovebox, but that is a small and acceptable trade off.

I'm pleased with the Vintage Air Unit.

Originally, I ordered the Old Air unit for my 1962 C10. When it came in, I took one look at the vents and determined that it would never work in my truck. They were too large and interfered with the operation of the emergency brake on the driver's side of the cab. It might work for others, but for my truck it was no dice.

I have this one in my 54 works fine for me. only complaint is the hose are round and the adapters are square/oval.

There is another option.....Classic Auto Air makes a perfect fit kit.Engineered specifically for the application. Its not a universal kit.

Most all of these manufacturers make a perfect or exact or whatever they call it kit for our trucks. Finding a ready to install kit shouldn't be the deciding factor on which brand to get.

I just placed my Vintage air order and ended up with sort of a universal kit, really a collection of parts suited to what I need, with very same evaporator as used in the "SureFit" kit for 47-55. On advice of the dealer who has installed many of them in the AD trucks he said considering the numerous changes to my truck I'll be ahead to make/modify my own brackets and put it just where I want it. I knew I'd have to plumb everything myself anyhow so a universal line kit instead of all the pre made lines.

Grigg

I am going to go with the Old Air Products interior unit where the vents are hidden behind the speaker grill. I will then cobble together my own underhood hardware from spare BMW parts I have lying around. I.e. compressor, condenser, condenser fan, etc. Should be fun with the hardest part finding a suitable pulley for the compressor. I will get the hoses custom fabricated (crimped fittings) locally.

I have used both and prefer old air

Sorry in advance for reviving this old thread. This past Monday, I place the order for the Old Air Products hidden vent package. I decided to go with the entire inside and outside kit/package and NOT try and re-use my Bosch compressor I have on hand. The kit should arrive in a day or two and I plan to write up a blurb about how well the kit integrates into an otherwise stock interior. Hopefully some informative photos along the way. Incidentally I also added an electric condenser fan (definitely needed in Texas)as well as trinary safety switch (compressor off on low, high pressures and electric fan on with compressor). To my door is a hefty $1500 or so.

Stay tuned....

I've only used Vintage Air products, but their products are great and I would definitely go with VA again.

Hopefully it works out well for you. I definitely think that getting the entire kit with compressor is better in that case, and will make for an easier installation.

DavidF, please take lots of pictures. I'll be putting air/heat in my 52panel in the spring time. I've also took a good look at the same folks you ordered yours from.... we'll be watching

DavidF, I added AC to my '57 this past summer. We live in AZ, so I had some of the same concerns that you have living in TX. I tried to get mine bulletproof at 115 degrees. A few things that I learned in the process...

I was stubborn and tried to keep the generator in spite of all the advice on this website not to do so. Yes, you do need an alternator. Don't even think about keeping the generator. I won't forget this as I tried to solve a dead battery issue on a searing hot August afternoon with heat in the desert at about 118. Being stubborn has a price...

I ran a three wire alternator and used the BAT terminal of the voltage regulator as a junction terminal for the voltage sensing wire of the alternator. Ran the AC off this terminal. The other terminals of the voltage regulator are empty, but this allowed me to keep the stock look of the voltage regulator on the firewall.

I used two electric condenser fans hidden behind my grill. These were wired with relays off the compressor...when the compressor kicks on, the fan relays trip and fire the fans. A local hot rod shop showed me the trick of wiring the fan relays off the compressor. The compressor is wired as normal through a switched relay.

I converted the stock 4 blade fan on my 235 to a repopped 6 blade high volume fan. These were a factory option back in the day for stop and go city driving or heavy agricultural applications. I went with a repop after reading about folks who had installed old fan blades with hidden flaws and ended up throwing a fan blade through their hoods. All OEM 6 blades that I found were...well...old...and untested under stress. So I went with a new repop.

The combination of the 6 blade fan, two electric condenser fans and alternator handled my AC and my cooling at peak times in the AZ desert. I needed the entire combination at peak.

I kept my cab stock and did not insulate it. That means the AC unit is trying to heat a hot tin can in the summer AZ heat. It takes the edge off, but it ain't exactly an igloo. Outlet air off the evaporator vents is as cold as it can be without frosting the coil, but refer to the hot tin can statement above. Keep your expectations realistic.

Please get in touch if I can be of any help.

Maybellene

That's good info, Maybellene. Especially the part about having the alternator sense where the load is rather the alternator output.

Thanks Maybellene. My setup/details will be/are as follows:
1. 12v conversion with 3 wire alternator.
2. New 12v wiring harness throughout (not reinstalling voltage regulator)
3. 14" electric condenser fan.
4. Condenser fan is trigger via trinary safety switch. When compressor is on, fan is on.
5. I have sound deadened (not thermally insulated) the cab. I suspect it will help a little. I have new firewall insulation in place.
6. I plan to keep my stock 4-blade fan, but will change that out if performance dictates.
7. I am adding a 12v electrical bus under the dash that is energized via a relay. The evaporator fan, stereo system, amp, PA system, etc. will be powered from the bus. Along with a ground bus.

I received the "kit" today (2 days after order...same state). Anyway, the kit seems very complete and well thought out. A revised glove box does not come with the kit nor do the drive belts. The instructions give belt length recommendations and requires the installer to modify the existing glove box.

I will probably start with compressor and alternator mounting then move to condenser/fan. Interior/hoses will probably come last.

OK, so here we go...

There are a LOT of parts in the A/C kit, so be prepared to spend some quality time on this type of project. Also, be sure to read the instructions all the way through before starting and then have an open mind to not following the instructions and being creative to make it work. I started with the compressor/alternator mount. The instruction say to align the generator pulley with the front compressor pulley. Yes, generator, but I have an alternator and assumed I would use the front compressor pulley for the alternator pulley. That was a mistake. No combination of spacers, etc would allow the alternator pulley to align with front compressor pulley. But, it is easy to align the alternator with the back compressor pulley. So, I pushed the compressor back on the engine, aligned the front compressor pulley with the crank pulley and the alternator will be driven from the back compressor pulley.

As a side note, I installed a dual groove crank pulley that I purchased from ??? (can't remember). I was hoping I could drive the compressor with a dedicated belt and then drive the alternator along with the water pump. But, my crank pulley has a .75" groove spacing and the compressor has a .625" spacing. close, but no cigar. So, if I knew this before I had the crank pulley made, I would have specified a .625" spacing. Keep that in your back pocket.

Anyway, here are some pics...
compressor mounted
alternator mounts
alternator mockup

I could not finish the alternator mockup as I discovered that my original generator tension arm/brace was better suited to the task than the arm that came in the A/C kit. So, I had to media blast and paint...waiting for the paint to dry. Using the original arm allows the use of the standard thermostat housing bolt instead of a stud/nut/brace/nut arrangement as called for in the kit instructions. The original brace has an offset that is perfect.

PS: Maybe one of the moderators can change the thread topic to: "Old Air Products A/C build thread" or something similar.

DavidF, looks like you'll have a great installation!

I'm adding a link to provide a few pix that might help you and to show a few fun things that I did on my installation. My attempt was to make mine look like a dealer-installed accessory if it had been available in 1957.

http://s844.photobucket.com/user/matthewronaldsaunders/library/Maybellene%20AC?sort=3&page=1

My evaporator is mounted under the seat because I did not want to remove the original deluxe heater or modify the dash. I couldn't mount a pseudo Cool-Pac unit (available as an option starting in 1959) under the dash because of the 4 speed and floor-mounted emergency brake on my 3/4 ton, so I went under the seat instead.

I run off one belt. I made my own brackets for the compressor and the alternator. I did mine inverse of many installations...mine has the compressor on the top and the alternator on the bottom. The one mounted on top will be easier to work on...personally, my preference was to have more elbow room to tinker with the compressor.

I tried to make my compressor look 'old school' by painting it black and adding a metal Harrison Air Conditioning tag to it. I used my metal punches to mark the metal tag 'R134A' and the installation date. It was an attempt to hide a modern compressor in plain view. I wanted it to look like a natural component of the truck.

I removed the ashtray and replaced it with an A/C control plate that I fabricated to fit into the factory opening. I wanted it to look symmetrical to the heater controls on the other side of the radio delete plate. The modified a metal Harrison Air Conditioning tag to act as a brand label for the controls that I fabricated. Once again, this was an attempt to make it look like a dealer-installed option had one been available.

I didn't have a kit because there wasn't one available to do an installation the way I wanted it done. I was able to use off-the-shelf parts for the A/C components combined with some self-fabricated ones to get the look I wanted.

Good luck,

Maybellene

Very well done. I bet your feet get cold. Yep, my freshly rebuilt fresh air heater will not be used. Guess it will go on Ebay one of these days. First thing I did with the truck was rebuild the heater before I decided to add A/C.

DavidF, I thought of something today might be helpful to pass along.

I mentioned in an earlier post that a local hot rod shop advised me to activate the condenser fans with a relay that was energized from the condenser (in my case, off the binary switch).

I had planned to wire the condenser fans with a fused line directly off the binary switch. I figured that since the AC system had its own feed that went hot through a relay on an ignition-switched line, I'd be good since the fans would only run when the compressor was on.

The technician at the shop told me that the electric condenser fans would spin on their own with normal driving because of the wind going through the blades. It wouldn't matter if the fans were turned on or not...they would spin when driving. He explained that the little DC motors in the fans would act as tiny generators and produce a small amount of current when spinning in the off mode. This current would work its way back through the circuit and would make its way to the compressor through the binary switch because the flow would be unchecked in this direction. He said this would cause premature failure of the compressor. Solution? Same concept, but use the binary switch wire to trigger a relay for the fans and give the fans a separate power source instead of wiring them directly to the compressor hot feed. This would eliminate backflow of current if the little motors did become generators. The backflow stops at the relay.

Made sense to me, so I did it this way. I wouldn't have thought of it had I not received the tip, so I thought that I would pass it along. Could be how you planned to do it anyway.

Maybellene

Agree, I have mine wired that way too. Make sure you get a quality relay capable of the ampacity of the electrical fans.

I purchased the aux fan wire harness from Old Air Products which includes a relay to control the fan.

A bit more progress over the weekend (not exclusively working on the a/c system). Completed the condensor assembly including aux fan. I am a bit worried that the upper pipe will interfere with the core support to lower panel support rods. I fabricated the brackets that hold the aux fan in place with 1/8" aluminum bar stock. Fan is rock solid. Had to slightly bend the high pressure tube to clear the fan. Mounted the blower assembly to the firewall. The evaporator/heater core tubes don't exactly center up in the factory heater blower hole. The rubber grommet supplied has provisions for off center, just maybe not this much. I did not "miss" as the supplied bracket dictates location via factory firewall hole. You are forced to drill two new 1/4" holes (lower left and upper left). Even the photos in the instructions show the tubes not centered in the firewall hole. If the blower assembly was moved up and to the passenger side more, then there would be problems with duct and air intake on the cabin side. So, I left the off center condition as is. Here is a photo of the blower assembly mounted inside the cabin. Photo is from a low angle, so the assembly is not really that visible from inside the cabin. This poor quality photo shows the interior taken from a normal vantage point and you can see that the blower is not very intrusive into the footwell/below dash. Also, I did not drill a 1-1/4" hole in the firewall (as required in instructions) for the drain tube, but will instead use the one factory heater hose hole that I did not plug during paint and body phase because I was too lazy. The most outboard hole is already covered when I replaced the inner kick panel. I will reroute the drain through the existing hole and down to below the inner fender (see photo )

UPDATE: Mounted the a/c vents under the center of the dash. I used the existing holes by fabricating an aluminum mount . The tape is cover rivet heads to avoid scratching any paint. The washers are rubber to provide some anti-squeak and spacing. you can also see the defrost (left) and heat (right) control cables on either side of the vents. This arrangement leaves space to the left of the steering column for the PA system my son wants installed. Whenever I mount anything to the dash, I use existing holes and never drill new holes. I may move the vents to the left and right of the cab and if so use the dash mount bolts.