The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Engine Shop Sad, sad story

The truck in question is 1958, fleetside with a 283.

About a year and half ago the the 283 was rebuilt. At the time of the rebuild the engine was painted the wrong the color. It was painted the Chevrolet 6 color. At the time of the rebuild the machine shop had put a tag on the engine claiming it was dry and needed oil. Okay no problem I put 5 quarts in it and once a week turned it over by hand. A few months later got the starter installed and then once a week turned it over by that method. A few months ago, I attached the exhaust manifolds and attempted to start it. It did right up. Let it run for a few seconds and shut it down.

From there I ordered and installed the exhaust system, went to a lot of trouble to use the correct clamps and hangers, even the an original NOS type around the muffler. Thursday, I thought with the complete exhaust installed lets run it. I prepare everything including rebuilding the carb and it starts right up again, although there is a fuel leak. I improve the fuel leaks, and start it up again. Not as easily as the first couple of attempts but it runs. Let it run for a minute, shut it down. Clean up everything wait an hour or so, and think okay the dog needs a walk, lets start it up one more time and then I will take the dog for the walk. Could not get it to run. My first thought was probably burned the points as I was not running the resistor, so I clean them up and try again would not run. Keep at it, check the oil, to much oil, start taking oil out through the dip stick tube, get 2 quarts of oil through the tube and there is still too much. Call the re builder he tells me he put oil in it, suggests removing the oil drain plug and putting in the correct 5 quarts of oil. I did exactly that, he doubted I had done any damage to the engine. I am a skeptical person, so I decide to do a compression check.

Yup all 8 cylinders around 100 PSi. I think naw must be gauge to low, so I take gauge and test a known running engine, gauge goes past 100PSi, conclusion.

New engine not new anymore. Always check oil, no matter how many tags, should have been more skeptical. Just unbelievable.

Be interesting to hear comments. I wouldn't think that would have hurt the engine to that extent.

I do agree, unless oil some how got past the rings, and hydro locked it. The question then becomes how did it get past the rings in the first place. But I am disappointed and unsure what to do next.

Why do you think oil got past the rings? Hydro lock can cause huge damage and you would definitely know if that happened. I personally would not keep running it without a cooling system hooked up.

Sorry, the cooling system was hooked up and filled. The radiator had been re cored, all new hoses and original style clamps.
To me in a rather simple way it was the only thing that made any sense. I mean how else to explain the loss of 40 or so PSi, in all cylinders?

Spark plugs clean and not oily when you took them out for the compression test? 10 qts of oil in that engine might get close to a little of it getting around the rings, but I'm not sure.

Check for spark at the plugs. Good healty blue spark. If you have that, try a little fuel down the carb throat and see if it comes to life.

Even with 100psi it should fire up.

Maybe the rings aren't seated well enough to hit the higher compression. (I don't know).

What is the valve lash? Maybe the valves a little too tight.

Check all the basics first. Spark, fuel and timing. Maybe the distributor was just loose enough it has turned a little and is out of time. Cold stiff oil could turn a dist that is not quite tight enough.

Hy GMCAMARO and guys, A rebuilt engine will not develop maximum compression until the rings are bedded in, you have to run it, and preferably under load. I don't think any real damage has occured. I have seen a lot of engines that ran very well with only 60 p.s.i. compression pressure.

The spark plugs were oily, so I blew them out and cleaned them up and put them back in.

I defiantly have spark at the plugs. I have been running with one of those lighted plug boots over the #1 cylinder.

I was trying gas down the throat. Would not run.
The 283 has hydraulic lifters no adjustment, but excellent thought because wouldn't too much oil cause issues here?

I checked hiow tight the distributor was because I won point I though the too much oil was a result of not enough priming and maybe the filter was not full yet. That thought proved wrong, but I took the distributor out, primed again and made sure I was at my previous running starting point.

Yeah, I always check the dip stick even after an oil change just to see where it is exactly at, but I agree with 3B. Your engine should be fine.

Bill

What would the explanation be for low compression? Please, I do agree with you. I am confused as to why it is low.

Pay attention to 3B, the rings are definitely not broken in, I wouldn't expect to get full compression yet, and its unlikely the oil was an issue, if you got wet plugs its probably just the oil used during assembly.
And hydraulic lifters do still need to be adjusted when set up is new.
Good luck.

I am a little confused too. You say you have low oil pressure. I don't see where you have an oil pressure reading. Maybe I missed it. It takes heat for rings to seat and it sounds like you haven't run the engine hot. There is no sense in even checking compression before you seat the rings. I usually put a piece of cardboard in front of the radiator to keep the temp up and then vary the rpm. Too much oil will cause the oil to foam and you may have gotten air in your lifters. I would drain all the oil, let it set a day or so with the plugs out, put in fresh oil and start all over. It will probably be fine.

I changed that post from low oil pressure to low compression, you caught me, sorry.

I will check on Monday, with the re builder as it was not me, would I be wriong to assume that they did it. Would that be a normal course of a rebuild? Also when it was running I did not hear them. I have cars with out hydraulic lifters and when they need adjustment that tick tick tick is screaming in my head "I need adjustment, and if you don't do it now, I will make you pay".

My first car "used a little oil" according to the previous owner, he told me to make sure I put oil in it every time I got gas. So here I go at 16 years old and every time I would fill up the gas tank I would put a quart of oil in. It didn't take long before I was running an engine with way too much oil in it. I didn't know anything about cars at the time so I sold it to a neighbor who promptly drained out the excess oil and drove it for 10 years.

As mentioned by some others, and maybe to clarify in more detail, when the rings are not fully seated, they will cause less compression. Once fully seated recheck the compression and it should read normal.

Bill

Not sure if I missed it in your posts, but you should run your rebuild 20-30 minutes on start up continuely, not intermittenly. As pointed out, some readings take some time to get to the proper readouts.It also allows for you to monitor the engine for leaks or other problems.

You do need to quit running it a little at a time. The extra oil probably saved the camshaft. You need to do a correct
break-in if a new camshaft and lifters was installed.

Turning a engine over every week or month just to turn it over will kill a camshaft faster then anything. There is no oil pressure to lube the lobes or bearings and if it had break in lube on the cam, its sure gone now! Get some GM EOS in the engine before starting again, it will lube the cam and lifters. Also, don't worry about compression till you get a few miles on the engine, the rings have not seated yet.

Be thankfull you over filled it, the extra oil kept the cam really lubed.

Dad built a Pontiac and ran it on the test stand for a break in, I then installed it in the car and added oil. It had 12 quarts in it when I went for a drive, it smoked a bit but ran ok. After we found the oil problem, we drain all 12 quarts out and started again. It now has over 40000 miles on it and still going strong.

Joe

I did my initial prime about 6 months or so ago. The idea of turning it over in the beginning by hand was to prevent the valves and other components from sticking/rusting in place. So by turning it over I was only doing maybe 180 degrees, by the starter maybe a full revolution or three. No more.

OOOOOK, take it easy step by step. I think its established that the compression will not be at its max until the rings are properly seated.
Its my belief that to much oil could possibly cause some foaining but considering the crank rotation and size of the pan I do not believe the engine is hurt.

I would add that the plugs, once fouled, "may" not operate as they normally would.

Going by your first post I'd like to suggest the correct amount of oil, new set of plugs and since you messed with the points I'd put in a new set, properly gapped and give it a spin. I would not mess with the valves at this point. (It ran fine to begin with.)

Be careful with pouring gas down the carb. "back in the day" when I worked at a chevy dealer I say a mehanic pour so much gas, and starting fluid,in an engine that it "washed" the cylinders wall clean and the engine locked up. It don't take much "fuel" if things are right.
Please let us know what you do/find.

I did change and put the correct amount of oil in there. So currently the dip stick is happy and there are 5 quarts. As for the plugs and points I will take your advice. Because, I need a break, I am going to wait until early next week before doing anything. At that time I will change plugs and points.

I am curious about the points though, I mean all I did was take a coupe of passes with 220 grit sandpaper. Why would that cause a problem? My thought at the time was I was not running the resistor, so I thought the potential, for burning was real. Today I did order the reistor, and I will have two wires going to the +side of the coil, one directly connected to the trigger of the starter and the other through the resistor and then to the battery.

220 grit is bad cuz it scores them and leaves grit on the surfaces, a proper points file, finer even than a fine fingernail file, is the correct tool

and the problem of running without the resistor would be as much frying the coil as the points

I'd suggest the main problem is you've been too anxious to get to the endpoint [hearing the engine make noise] without considering the steps to the goal ... until you have the installation 100%, including the proper resistor setup [wires to coil via ignition switch NOT direct], forget trying to run the engine, gather up some patience until you're in a position to start it properly and run it to first full warm up, when you can proceed with the correct re-checks and re-tightening and re-adjusting

there is a definite procedure for doing the initial startup of a new engine and your rebuilder was remiss in not insuring you knew what that involved, you should not have messed with the engine until it was installed ready to fire properly

Bill

I am with 3B. If this wasn't a rebore with perfect cylinders then it will take a while for the rings to wear in. Something else and probably pretty simple is keeping it from starting.

Slow cranking equals low compression....
was the compression test done with all the plugs out?
new rings not seated equals low compression....

On the rebuild. cast or chrome rings??.Was the cyclinders bored?Were the heads reworked??? Check compression dry and then wet.Yes the valves are adjustable.0 clearance exhust and intake valves.You did NOT HURT the engine.As said above,the engine will breake in about the first 500mi.Then check compression, this should make ya happy. Keep an eye on the oil pressure.Good luck

The plugs were only out one at a time. The cranking was normal it was not slow.

Thank you.

Correct compression checking is done with a warm engine, all the plugs out, throttle blade wide open, and using the starter to turn over at least four revolutions per cylinder.

Joe

The cranking speed and the compression reading will be higher with the plugs out.

Is there any other way to tell if there is another internal damage?

I am asking because what also caught my attention was pitch change. The motor just sounded different after awhile of cranking.

as in the battery getting tired?

Bill

Sounded internal.

Rings have not seated.... it should run on 100 psi conpression... figure out why it aint running and break the engine in... compression will come up

Did you install distributor? Did you check the timing and hat the plug wires are in the right order?
I just managed to do that the other day. swapped two wires out of order and the thing ran, just not well...

lol

Yes.

So to clarify what has happened, you had the engine rebuilt a couple of years ago, you turned it over monthly to keep it free, and you have had it running for a few minutes at a time with twice the oil capacity, and now it won't restart.

Is that correct?

No internal damage will happen with extra oil, so rule that out.

No coil or points wear will come from full 12V in the short time you have run it. The points receive full voltage every time the starter runs, it switches to lower voltage after the key is turned to run from start.

You could have a flat cam and lifters, pull the rocker covers and check for loose rockers. This comes from improper break-in.

Start over with the engine on TDC, #1 cylinder, compression stroke. Check the distributor rotor for proper location in relation to the plug wires. Check the plug wire routing to each plug. Change out the plugs to new ones if oil stained.

Replace the points if you have any concerns about them, same with the coil.

Charge the battery or replace it with known good condition one. This is probably the most important step to take. With out proper rotating speed, even good running engine sometimes have a hard time starting.

Change out the fuel if its over a couple months old. It may not be bad, but fresh fuel works better in this situation.

One more thing, the engine might sound different with less oil. What you maybe hearing is normal starter noisy. To be sure, check the starter bolts and alignment. Check the flywheel teeth for wear in the bottoms or on the crown of each tooth. Shim the starter if needed so the wear pattern is not bottoming out or on the edges.

Joe

Yes,

Your advice is excellent, two(2) things the battery is brand new an optima, the fuel too is also a couple of days old from the pump. I will do everything else you suggested. The re builder also suggested, I just replace the spark plugs and make sure there is no oil left in the cylinders, by removing the plugs and turning the engine a few times. I did no further work today, but I will tomorrow.

Well, I have been working on the truck and recently the engine. I made sure the rotor was pointing to the number 1 cyl, when the compression was up. It was close. It was hard to tell, if it was #1 or #2 because when you stop with the starter, it was not stopping immediately. Not running yet. The coil was brand new before all of this started. So, next I will change the points. The rocker shafts were fine, no play. I did do two circuits to the coil one with the resistor and one to the starter trigger, that bypassed the resistor.
I also put in new spark plugs, but still not running.

rings and bearings have to be run to seat then compression will come up and all old chevys valves are adjustable i would check the valve adjustment and sometime when a plug fouls they never fire again i would put new ones in

Okay, I am still working on it. I replaced all plugs. I aligned the timing mark on the hub with the grid, I checked to be sure rotor was pointing #1 plug and it was. I rotated engine via starter a few times and found that by having the mark on the hub with the grid on the block the rotor was sometimes 180 out from the #1 plug.

When you grab the rotor shaft there is play there, the distributor is flush against the block, so I am sure I found the grove, why would it change?