The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Engine Shop Pinion Nuts frozen!

Now the last thing in the driveline that needed service is the pinion seal. She’s drippin’ like a sailor back from shore leave. I spent last night meticulously cleaning all around the nut and exposed threads, then soaked her down overnight with Kroil, “don’t spoil it, Kroil it”! got me a brandy new 1 5/8” socket on the end of a 24” bar with a bar clamped to the flange and stopping it from rotating at the floor. I can bend the breaker with all my weight on it, bounce it and she tain’t budging. I did that for an hour or so with out success, then wrapped the heat tape round the socket and wrapped the socket and heat tape with a few layers of alum foil. I shimmed everything up with 2x4’s so there is a pretty good preload in the counter clockwise direction, the breaker has a nice gentle bend in it. She’s been-a-cookin’ for a couple of hours and I’ve given the breaker some extra persuasion ever 15 min. or so. NOTA thing happening here!
Tried the impact on it once but I’m feared I might break a tooth on the ring gear with that.
So, any big ideas from you old grease monkeys out thar??? I just know somebody’s gonna tell me to get the torch out, but that’s not an option.
Thanks,
Denny Graham
Sandwich, IL

If you use the search function in this forum using the phrase 'pinion nut' you can find all kinds of tips and encouragement to get that stubborn nut off!

Stuart

Stuart, before I post ANY question I usually spend an hour, and often times more searching the archives. It bugs me also when someone asks a question that has been answered a hundred times before. The point at which I ask is when I get so frustrated at coming up with empty searches. Now maybe I’m doing something wrong, and I am certainly open to instruction, and I don’t even mind criticism! I have tried searching using the following with quotes, with out quotes, in all the forums, in the Engine & Driveline forum. I’ve tried "Match all search items above" I’ve tried "Match any of the search items above" and I just come up with zip, well I can't say zip because I get 300 responces, none of which seem to be related to the question. So what I’m sayin is I’m really tryin not to be a pain in the ars!
I have searched for “pinion nut”, ”pinion seal”, ”replacing pinion seal”, ”removing pinion nut”, ”rear seal”, ”replacing rear seal”, oh, and also, ”pinion nuts frozen” (that one comes up right at the top of the, “stopped at 300 results”) but I haven’t found any messages that deal with a stuck nut on the pinion shaft or replacing the seal.
Denny Graham
Sandwich, IL

Denny,
Here in Colorado it is a good thing to have frozen pinion nuts. once the pinion/pinyon trees freeze you can gather the nuts. Once roasted and salted -- delicious. Hope that made you smile. I too have had problems getting the search results I want. (not from lack of trying)I can't help with the problem per se, but get a nut splitter and use it to remove the stubborn nut from the shaft. Jimmie D.

Well, nuts to you Jimmie D., hope that made you smile! Yep, I get kind of furstraded sometimes because I try pretty hard to carry my part of the load before I ask for help.
Nut splitter, never thought of that, good idea,shows ya got your thinkin cap on this afternoon. Now, where in the world am I going to get one that will fit round a 1 5/8" nut? I looked all day for a 1 5/8", 6 point socket and finally had to settle on a 12 pointer, don't hold up to good with the impact, which by the way, I tried again after having the heat tape on for several hours. I suppose I could take a cold chisel to it but I don't want to do damage to the brgs. Then there is the fun of trying to find a nut, Chevy probably switched sizes of nuts in 52 and I'll have to go on another wild goose chase.
Denny Graham
Sandwich, IL
Thanks
Denny Graham
Sandwich, IL

I have NOS nuts if you need one.

put the impact on it.... it wont break a ring gear or pinion... what rear end is it..half or 3/4..?? chisel it off..dont worry about the bearings cuz theyre pretty cheap anyway and probably should be replaced regardless..?? oh i forgot ya just wanna do the seal...if its 3/4 ton ive got a couple of extra rear ends that have nuts on them.... buttttttt... the impact will get it and not hurt anything...

I agree, impact that sucker. If you're worried about damage, put a firm grip on the yoke to eliminate a lot of the vibration and movement. I've replaced many pinion yokes and it takes the pounding of an impact to bust things loose. I've done both of my 48 1 1/2 pinion seals this way, it works. Of course you need a good impact,
Scott

That might be the problem. I have a 1/2" drive electric impact, good enough for lug nuts but it might not have the stuff for this big one. I don't think the 12 point socket is going to cut the mustard either.
It’s a stock 3604 by the way.
Denny Graham
Sandwich, IL

Yeah , the ol' pinion nut is torqued way over 300ft/lbs , yer need a LONGER bar , real hard to do back up that tight too.

I'm jacked up on the axles and the tires are only about 8" higher than normal so yes, it is tight and a little hard to get your back into it. One foot on the frame and pulling as hard as my old 65 years will let me just tain’t enough. I’m gonna try to borrow a good big heavy air impact from someone this week.
Yepper, torque specs from the manual call out 160-280 ft.lb., so I guess 300 tain’t to far from the truth, especially considering 56 years of mud and rust in the threads adding to the friction.
What I wouldn’t give for a lift and a 3/4” impact right about now! Wonder if the rental place has one???
Denny Graham
Sandwich, IL

Keep the loose juice on it,if that fails heat with torch and let cool,longer cheeter "caution" don't jump on cheeter bars get longer ones.

Denny Graham,

I was not trying to criticize your post...I'm sorry if you took it that way. Not knowing much about pinion nut removal, I did a basic search using a basic phrase and got several hits outlining the exact problem you had, and suggestions how to remedy it.

I doesn't appear the search feature on this site is sophisticated enough to recognize search modifiers such as + and " ". When I used these items, the search came back empty.

Stuart

No offence taken Stu, criticism is very often positive, any way, I have a very thick skin.
Like I tried to say, I have tried every way I can think of and all I get is a long list of unrelated messages. The object of a Search function is so you don’t have to go thru hundreds of messages to find what you want. My search returns 300 (which is the limit apparently) messages, unrelated. I ;might just as well just keep stepping back in the thousands of messages and reading them till I come across something.
If your having such good luck with the search function why don’t you post a link to the one that you ran across. Be much more time affective than us jabbering back and forth here.
I bombed out at two rental places round here for ¾ drive 1 5/8” impacts, so I’m getting the small torches out and am going to try and just heat the nut for a while. If all else fails I guess I’ll have to break down and find a impact wrench at Harbor Freight, they have a dozen ¾ drive listed. They don’t have 6 point sockets though, neither does Sears. Snap-On has them for $60 but I’ll be damned if I’m gonna pay $60 + S&H for a socket!
I found only one tool vendor that lists a KD 1 5/8”, 6 pt socket, for under ten bucks. All this is fine but it means replacing the seal is going to have to wait another week or so.
What in the world do the other 12,000 Plus members of this forum do about the drip, just use a diaper or drip pan, cuz if their 50 years old, their drippin’. And the only way to stop it is to pull the flange and replace the seal.

Which brings up another question, not having gotten that far yet, it looks like the gasket thickness for the pinion bearing and oil seal retainer is kind of critical, how are you guys handling that? I can cut a new gasket but how thick is it before its torqued down.
Denny Graham
Sandwich, IL

I would bet once you get it off, the gasket thickness doesn't play a part in how the bearings are set up. That would be to much of a varible for GM assembly lines to handle.
We had to use a 1" impact wench on a bus pinion nut the other day, talk about tight, 400 ft. lbs tight!
Take the torch to it, get it as hot as you can, then pull it with you breaker bar, working fast so it doesn't have time to cool from the socket. Joe

Denny,
I've never taken a pinion nut off. It's not left hand threaded, is it?

Also, one trick I learned from my Air Force days is when you have a stubborn nut or bolt, try tightening it a bit first. It's worked for me more times than I can count. Seems that if you tighten it up it loosens things up and encourages the nut or bolt to begin moving in the proper direction.

Could there be a partial cotter pin through the shaft hanging it up? Have you tried heat?

the gasket thickness they are talking about is on some pinion carriers actuall a shim and thats how they set the preload for the bearings... the ones that torque down though typically the spacer between the bearings is a crush sleeve...that crushes to get the preload to the bearings. if you tighten the nut to torque tight youll probably have to back it off a tad so the bearings arent to tight... just like a wheel bearing.

Tried three rental places round here and none had 3/4" drive impact. Finally threw in the towel and me and the dog took a ride to Harbor Freight and came home with a 3/4" Earthquake Impact Wrench. Twin hammer, 300 to 1100 ft.lb. maximum torque is 1400 ft. lbs.
one pull of the trigger and the nut was in the bottom of the socket. One more problem solved, now I've got the wrench for the next one.
The compressed gasket, mic's out at about .015", I have some 1/32 material but I don't think it will compress that much and that would allow the brg. to slip forward to far. I'll stop by auto parts in the morning and see if I can find something around .020". The preload on the pinion bearing looks like it is set by the torque on the nut. The shims in front and back of the bearing races sets the pinion depth, that shouldn’t change.
The flange has a nice little grove worn in it from the old seal, I'm gonna clean it up a little on the lathe with some cloth but I would suspect that I will still have some seep because of the worn spot. Wish I could find a new felt packing for the flange.
Denny Graham
Sandwich, IL

Great news Denny. Perseverance pays off.
On the groove in the flange, can You come up with a sleeve?. It would be a shame too still leak after all You been through.

Denny,
in a previous post, there was mention of a sleeve that is sold to fix the groove problem.

Fred

I thought about sleeving it last night, as soon as I got it out of the gunk tank. That gets a little complicated though. Ya need to make a mandrel to mount the flange and then indicate it in, turn the flange down, machine a sleeve, I'd probably make it a shrink fit, then turn and polish the sleeve.
Years ago, we used to sell offset front seals for worn cranks, that put the lip over a clean part of the crank. Which prompted me to think of this. I may be able to shave a 1/16” or so off the felt, its almost 1/2” wide, then drive the seal a little deeper compressing the felt packing as much as possible since there isn't a stop shoulder. By compressing the old felt the only place for the extra to go is toward the ID, if I can reduce the ID a touch it will help it seal, since I can't find a new one.
I'll try a search and see if I can come up with anything, I don't want to spend the whole day looking thru the archives again.
Denny Graham
Sandwich,

Well I see someone deleted their reply again.
"Speei-Sleeve, at Jimmy Carter", only fits 1/2 ton!!
Denny Graham
Sandwich, IL

Yep , look for a speedi sleeve , is made of thin stainless and is loktited on.Works perfect.

Can you describe the gasket bit ? I don't remember that part , just the yoke pressing direct onto the pinion inner race.

Check with Jim Carter pt# ME826 .

From previous replys Dusty, "It’s a stock 3604 by the way." and "Speei-Sleeve, at Jimmy Carter", only fits 1/2 ton!!"
Denny G

Speedi-Sleeve sells more than just one sleeve size. Mic the yoke and ask a parts house for a sleeve in that size. If nothing is available, just pound the seal in more or less to avoid having to seal against the old groove. Also, if the gasket is in realative good shape, coat with some silicone sealer and reinstall.
Scott