The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Engine Shop Any advice for my engine rebuild?

I would like some advice on rebuilding my engine. It is a 1941 Chevrolet 216 with 47,000 miles on it. Despite its low miles, it seems to have significant wear, presumably the farmer who owned it from 1941 to 1980 did a lot of work with it around the farm. The valves look quite eroded, perhaps from unleaded gas or maybe just normal wear? Clearance between the pistons and cylinders is about .008. The clearance between the valves and guides is in the middle of the acceptable range. The main and rod bearings both seemed pretty tight. On the bottom of the oil pan was about 3/4" of scum and the pickup screen was a bit clogged. I don't think the p.o. changed the oil enough and it has no filter. After it was parked in the mid nineties, the rings rusted to the pistons. Originally I was just going to re-ring it but after seeing the valves I decided it might be best to give it a proper rebuild and not have to worry about it for the next 100,000 miles. I called the machine shop and they said it would cost this:
90-boil block + head
42(1/2 hours work)-check head + deck for warp
210-grind crank
35-magnaflux head
42-check main bearing alignment
171-bore and hone cylinders
45-press in cam bearings
174-press in valve guides
54-grind valves
18.5 each-install hardened valve seats.
32.5-resurface flywheel
300-balance engine
I forgot to find out how much to install camshaft gear

total of about 1500
about an additional 1500 to Chevs of the 40s for parts

This would come to twice what I paid for the truck so:
-Do I really need to replace valves and guides?
-Can I tap in guides myself? (I have no press)
-Do hardened valve seats go on just the exhaust or both?

Maybe I should just re-ring and grind valves?

i would suspect that top speed on that truck is 45-50 tops
its gonna take you a long time to get 100k. i personally
would not drop 3 grand in a splash babbet engine. with .008
piston clearance i would have it honed reuse the pistons
grind the crank do the head and move on. balancing is not needed
on a low tec engine like this. i found a post 54 235 and rebuilt
it for mine a much better engine.

I'd check to see how much taper you have in your cylinder walls. I'd also check the head for cracks. You may want to just to just grind the seats, the idea of hardened seats has mixed results and if your going to drive your truck on a limited basis I think you could get by without hardened seats. Also, did you check for clearance on rods and mains? Your truck should have had shims in it and if the bearing surfaces are not scratched or scoured you may be able to adjust clearance and polish up the crankshaft. Look a bit closer and things may not be as bad as you first thought. These old engines are tough.

Use a pressure washer to get all of the oil and grime off. Then blow off with air, and spray everything with WD40. Now you can better inspect everything.

Anybody recommend the full rebuild?

This is just my opinion, but I would have a hard time spending a dime on a splash engine when good full pressure oilers are easily obtainable. I even have a spare in my barn. 216's were not good long haul engines to begin with, upgrade,
Scott

Most of the shops that I have talked to like to install bronze inserts in the guides. The sludge in the pan is pretty typical on one of these well used old engines.

My '46 has a '54 235 in it. It's a much more roadworthy engine, although it's obviously not original. Frankly, unless you're a purist, the only reason to rebuild the old splasher is for a correct restoration. If you're going to drive it, the upgrade will make a big difference. It's also nicer to have a bit more horsepower if you eventually change to a higher geared rear to get better road speed. As I get it, the '54 engine (or '53 Powerglide) is the holy grail - straight bolt in with no water pump change needed. If that's wrong I'm sure someone will correct me.

Good luck with your truck,

David Bush

I have a rebuilt 1954 and have previously owned 3 216 motored trucks, the 235 is a slick easy conversion and a much better long-term solution. I bought the motor and essentially a 3/4 complete 1954 3600 that was a languishing project for $1800 After selling off all the parts that came with it the motor ended up costing me $600.

While I appreciate the suggestion to upgrade, its hard to believe the 216 is that bad considering it was used from 1937 to 1953. Also my truck is registered by the engine number. What is specifically wrong with the 216, other than lack of power, which I am not to concerned about? Does it overheat on long drives? Does it burn out after 50,0000 miles? Does it burn a lot of oil? Is it unreliable?

If I use my original valves and guides (the stem clearance is within spec), skip hardened valve seats, and skip balancing, labor will be ~$800 with parts ~$1200. The head is light and easy to remove if the valves need attention later. Does $2000 seem more in line?

I don't think that the 216 deserves the bad rap its getting here. Sure pressurized 235's are a better motor and make more torque and horsepower. There are still many 216's on the road today and function just fine if used as they were designed. If you want your truck to haul big loads and go 70 mph down the freeway then the 216 would be a poor choice for you. If you want to have an engine in your truck to toy around with and don't mind driving the back roads and staying off the freeways the 216 will do just fine. You can drive your 216 all day at a reasonable speed and it will be just fine. All of the early engines and especially the ones that had cast iron pistons used some oil, I've heard that a quart in 300-500 miles isn't anything to be alarmed at.
If can contact a Wisconsin State trooper ask him to do a VIN check on your truck. Have the numbers on the engine cleaned off so he can easily see them. Then show him the VIN plate in the truck and he can fill out the paperwork so you can have the ID# changed on the title. I went through this with my '53 6400 and everything went just fine.

Good Luck

If this was mine and it was running, I would get the valves grounds with stock valve seats, keep the guides as is or replace only as needed. Power wash the block inside and out. Hone the cylinders myself, add new rings to the stock pistons, shim up the rods and crank bearings, and new gaskets and paint. I might change out the timing gears if they show wear so check the backlash before tearing it down.

Do as much of the work as you can because your labor is free!

Joe

theres nothing wrong with the 216 its just not as good as the later motors i added hei ignition 12v and a holly webber carb to my 235 for my 46 i want to be able to jump in fire up and go with out working on the truck first. i would check with your local machine shop on the parts i bought pistons rings new cam cam gear gaskets
and oil pump for 800.00 all name brand stuff. philip

After cleaning it up, I found that some of the rod bearings look like this, and one of the mains look like this. I scrubbed out the block with gasoline and hosed out the water jacket with hot water.

if that were an insert bearing i would say no but babbit is
is a lead alloy very soft the oil does all of the work they can be
smoothed up and re shimed to the proper clearance. philip

Those photos are a bit dark but it looks to me like the babbitt on the rod has dropouts. You don't really want to put it together like that. Mine looked very similar and I had the rods machined to take inserts. I am happy with my 216 and it doesn't burn oil. I bought aliminum pistons on Ebay. The compression rings are locate a litle lower than on the original cast iron pistons, probably for strength. That means that the top ring does not go as high as the maximum wear area.

The 216 served well for many years and was used in some pretty heavy trucks. The 235 version was almost identical during those years and they were used in even larger trucks. The full pressure 235 was a more modern engine. The 1954 235s generated around 120 hp I believe and by 1960 they were up around 140 hp. However, as stated about, the 1954 motor is the easiest to substitue.

wow , lots of negative opinions on this.

My 216 is being rebuilt now and the rebuilder said the babbited bearings actually are a plus on the splash oilers. (no bearing thinning)
I like that my crank still has the nob for a hand crank.

Possibly you could get a 235 cheap including shipping ,then rebuild that cheaper.

After many suggestions to the contrary,I decided to rebuild this engine ,figuring if it lasted 60 years (at least 40-50 running)
it can't be that bad.
Hey it's your truck,do what you want.

but as it says,I'm just a hacker

Of course you can make decent 216 for $3-$4K, but you can make a very nice, better engine for a whole lot less.

It's your truck and money, do it the way you want,
Scott

How is a 235 cheaper? The design is virtually the same, with the main difference pressure oiled rods. The parts cost minimally less and the labor would be the same, as far as I can see.

Really, about the only glaring fault with the 216 is the babbit bearings. It is true there were probably millions of them built, and under the right conditions they would work for a long time. It is just that the precision bearings with the full pressure oiling is so much more trouble free, especially if running a little more rpm, such as you would be doing with today's speed limits.

to answer the question of how is it cheaper the parts are cheaper
but also a little honing and shiming does not give you the same thing as grinding the crank and new precision bearings. if all you are after is a good running truck not trying to win any shows
why put an inferior engine in it when for the same or less you can have a gray painted i6 stovebolt engine that you arent worried about the bearings every time you run it hard. wood cook stoves worked but my wife dont want one.philip

Are the replacement bearings not any better? I would be using insert bearings on the rods.

I didn't say 235, I said "better" engine. A full pressure has bearings, which anyone can replace. A machinist needs to rebabbet or cut in bearings on the 216's and early 235's. Longevity also adds up when you need to redo a 216 more often just because of it's design. Also, finding and good post 54 235 or 261 in running condition is rather easy. Some are even already rebuilt, I see them listed all the time. I'm not knocking your plans but you did ask for opinions. I've got a fleet of AD trucks and you couldn't give me a 216 to use. Just my opinion. You also have to remember that your shop gave you an estimate. Rarely,if ever, does anyone come in anywhere close to an estimate. What happens if the head or block is cracked or the crank is junk? Then there's the extras like tune parts, clutch parts, etc. Now the price is getting close to a 400hp crate engine and all you have to show for it is a stock 216.
Good luck and I hope your engine is in good shape and lasts a very long time,
Scott

Thanks very much for the advice. I'll tell you guys how it all turns out when I'm done.

If you're going to spend money on a 216, get the rods converted to insert-type bearings. The major problem with the splash-oiler engines is the tendency for them to beat the rod bearings out and develop a rod knock at anything other than very low speeds with the engine lugging. By machining the rods to accept insert-type bearings, the lower end gets more reliable, and when it's time for a bearing replacement there's no fitting or shimming involved. The oiling system stays the same, with the dippers and oil squirters, so the lower end still has to be set up by someone who knows what he's doing. There's an alignment jig that's used to aim the oil squirter nozzles so they direct oil right into the rod dippers at highway speed.

The extra displacement and the full-pressure rod oiling and insert bearings of the 55-up 235 is the main advantage to the upgrade to a later-model engine. The 235 also tolerates power upgrade modifications much better than the babbit-pounder engine.
Jerry

Since the cost of rebuilding a 216 is approximately the same as a 235 but the result being nearly twice the horsepower that makes it sound cheaper to me.

Jerry,
Have you ever seen/used one of these?

http://cgi.ebay.com/WINONA-IN-THE-CONNECTING-ROD-BABBITT-BORING-BAR-MOD-BB_W0QQitemZ110332780874QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item110332780874&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1205%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318%7C301%3A0%7C293%3A2%7C294%3A50

Interesting machine! I saw one very similar to that in use at an automotive machine shop on Okinawa when I was stationed there in the early 1970's. It's designed to rough-machine a poured-bearing rod before the scrape-fitting operation is begun. That's fine for Model T Ford rods and others that have the Babbit poured in place, but stovebolt rods used a different manufacturing process to spin a thin layer of Babbit into the rod. Regular rebabbiting methods don't work well on Chevy rods. The spin-pouring equipment went obsolete many years ago, which is why machining for insert bearings is the way to go now.
Jerry

Just my opinion, I would only rebuild the 216 if it was going in a 100% stock restoration and if you was going to show it. If the plan is to just putt around in it, clean everything, hone the cylinders check and reuse the pistons with new rings, check the crank and bearings do what is needed and the same with the head.
This could be a relatively cheap overhaul?
The 216 is not a bad engine for what it is.
We recently finished a total rebuild on a 261 (54 1'st series) thats in my brothers 51 half ton. All machine work was done and all new parts were used. Dual carbs, fenton headers, mild cam, 235 head, electonic ignition. Motor runs great and pulls hard in all four gears. This was the first stovebolt inline six I have rebuilt.
My experience is in V8's.
I have to say I am very impressed with this motor.
Good luck in whatever you decide to do.

Sure a unique item. Even more amazing I found the instruction manual for it on sale online at an automotive place!


http://www.beautomotivemachine.com/servlet/the-345/Van-Norman-INTHEROD-Instruction/Detail

I was foolish and did not follow your advice. I had the engine completely redone with all new wearing parts including hardened exhaust seats, valve guides, aluminum pistons and water pump, and all the normal machine work. I did have a little trouble getting the right parts; chevs sent me 1940 valves, a faulty oil line, and one of there rod bolts was stripped. When I sent for a new rod bolt, they sent me an ordinary grade five cap screw. However after $1450 parts and and $1000 labor (which I didn't think was too bad), I brought the engine home to assemble. Bad idea assembling it on Friday the 13th. Nothing fit. I brought it back to the machine shop. After 3 sets of main bearings, it was found that EGGE had had manufacturing problems and was not making the mains with the right dimensions so that the crankshaft journals were being pinched near the parting line. Then, with confidence lost, I had the shop install the rods and pistons. Rods were bored out to the wrong diameter and the shop had to re-bore them. An additional $1400. And I still need a new master cylinder and assorted small parts before it will be road-worthy. Next time I should take Murphy's law into account, but I cannot say I was not warned. I hope it actually runs now, I've had it for 6 years (since I was 15) and never heard it run.

i do machine work for a living and while not auto who ever
charged you 1400 to bore 6 rods should be sent to prison.
do not deal with these people any more they are crooks.
you need to go to the drag strip or local hot rod club and find out who is doing most of the engine work in your area. you could buy the stuff from jim carters cheaper than that.

Sorry, I wasn't clear. That was for working out the main bearing problem, the rod problem, and assembling the thing. I does seem expensive, though, but this is Madison, where my mother once had a place replace 3 seals, which were barely leaking, for $700, when I was out of town.