The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area General Truck Talk E-85 fuel in a bolt?

Hi gang, I've been gone for quite some time now. (that is a series of long stories...) Anyhow, I am pressed for time and didn't do a search for threads on this topic, but I was wondering... I am getting ready to build a still to make my own ethanol to run my little commuter putt-putt on and was wondering what would be involved in getting my 62 C-30 (261 with a Rochester B) to run on E-85? I assume replacing the valves would be a must, but what about the fuel system? Could I continue to use the Rochester B? Or would I have to figure out a way to go fuel injected or something else? I really Love that 261 and want to keep using it if possible. Feedback requested.
Thanks,
David

Hi!
I have zero experience with E-85, but a lot of time running straight alcohol engines. Alcohol has a MUCH lower specific gravity than gasoline. Since the 14.7:1 air/fuel ratio all engines need is figured by weight, not volume, you'll need to re-jet the carb for a lot more fuel flow. When my Dad started running the family race car on alcohol back in the early 1950's, Carter Carburetor reccomended we increase the cross-sectional area of the main jets X10, or approximately 3 times the gasoline jet diameter. That was for full-throttle work on a racing engine, but I'd guess a main jet diameter twice the gasoline jet size would put you in the ballpark for street use. I do know a Ford/Holley 2-barrel on a flathead V-8 runs too lean on alcohol, even with the jets removed. There is too much restriction in the internal passages of the carb. Stromberg 97 carbs had a less-restrictive fuel flow, and could be jetted rich enough to work on straight alky. I have no idea if your Rochester could be jetted rich enough without increasing the size of the fuel passages downstream of the main jet.
Jerry

Well first thing that you need to deal with is the fuel tank its self. Ethanol alcohol is an oxidizer so you'll need to either coat the inside of you existing tank or change to a stainless or plastic one. Next step would be to change the hard fuel lines to stainless. Now for your Rochester B it will need to be completely disassembled and hard anodized to keep it corrosion free and fitted with much larger jets. So all in all what you will have to do is protect the fuel system from the corrosive affects of the methanol and up size you jets that’s it. Save your old jets and keep some cab gaskets around then a quick jet change can have you running on gas again.

Would an aluminum tank work instead of a stainless steel one?

Aluminum oxidizes as well.

You'd need to anodize it.

I've looked into this a little bit so here's what I've found. The difference between alcohol and gas as far as specific gravity is 25-30% less for alcohol, so you need to increase your jet size about that. Eastman has a kit to coat the inside of the gas tank about $100. Because of the difference in specific gravity you will lose about that much in mileage. You can get back part of what you lose in mileage by increasing compression ratio. Tom Langdon told me that for every two points you raise your compression ratio (i.e. 8.0:1 to 10.0:1) you will get back 8% in power and 7% in efficiency (mpg). I've seen various numbers on the octane rating of E85, 103, 105... I computed the octane from numbers I got from Wikipedia and came up with 117. E85 is selling for about 20% less than regular gas in the midwest from what I've been told. Since you lose mpg running it, and consumer economics, I doubt that it will ever sell for more. If you raise your compression by four points you get back about half the difference. I've just about finished rebuilding a 292 short block with zero deck clearance, with the stock head I'll get 10.0:1 compression, with a 194 head I'll get 12.0:1.

I need more information on what the alcohol is going to try and eat. I've heard about the tank and gas lines and dissolving deposits in the fuel system. First I've heard about hard anodizing the carb. I've also heard comments about rubber fuel lines.

Larry

You will never get your money back in any kind of savings even if you get it to work. I highly recommend not wasting your time and money.
Just my 2 cents worth,
Scott

I can make the ethanol for right around a dollar a gallon and the distillation time is about 2 hours for 10 gallons. I am paying $3.65 a gallon for regular right now and it is still going up. I think it will not be long before it definitely WILL be worth it. I am just getting ready for that eventuality.
David

If money really had anything to do with it, I wouldn't be on this board. There's also a matter of 8% more power, which is all in the octane. Anytime the big oil companies get less of my $$$ that's also nice. Did I mention it also burns cooler so runs nice in a blown or turbo motor. :rolleyes:

Larry

Hey Kutz, can I stop by on my way to Portland and fill up?

If it works out, I am even seriosly considering buying a used generator and trying to run it on ethanol. It would truly be gratifying to see my electric meter running backwards! Anytime I can withold $$$ from oil or utility barons or tell OPEC where to put it, I am VERY happy!!!!

We had corrosion problems with the dirt tracker fuel system, but it was most likely caused by the 20% concentration Hydrogen Peroxide we were mixing with the alky for an oxidizer. The fuel tank was a stainless steel beer keg, as were the fuel lines all the way to the carburetor. If the carburetor was not run dry every time the engine was shut down, the fuel would eat holes in the float bowl within a couple of hours. The carburetor got rebuilt once a week, right before race time.

I've heard of the 10% concentration gasohol causing problems with ceretain types of rubber seals, fuel lines, and rubber diaphragms on mechanical fuel pumps. I believe E-85 would probably have similar problems, only more so.
Jerry

Here is another kink. It illegal to distill alcohol in the US. That is unless you have a permit from the government. If you are making ethanol for human consumption the tax is 14 dollars a gallon. If you are making it for fuel you still need a permit. However the tax is not as much, but you must document every gallon to make sure it goes into the fuel tank and not into a glass. I looked into this a few years ago, I decided that to do it legally was just too much of a PITA. Jimmie.

The thing to do is get together with friend’s family and neighbors and form a Co-Op it will take some work time and effort but in the light of today’s’ gas prices could be well worth it.
I am a very conservative fellow and think most of the alternative fuels are fooy hybrids get better fuel mileage in the city but give it up on the open road. Fact is I got better mileage with a 91 cavalier than my liberal friend gets with his new Toyota Prius. Electric cars are fine till you plug them into the wall to recharge using power generated by coal and that goes for hydrogen also when it uses huge amounts of electricity to produce the hydrogen. The idea of using plant based fuels is very exciting to me. Bio diesel and methanol alcohol burn cleaner than fossil fuels and can run in the vehicles we have now with little to no modifications and can help us reduce our dependence on foreign oil right now. Bio diesel I like it, it is in my opinion one of the most promising alternative fuels we have to date.
Methanol alcohol is another good choice in the past fossil fuels have been much cheaper to produce and use but the times are changing my friends. I can’t seem to find it right now but I seen a carburetor being advertised in one of the performance magazines that I read that will automatically change it fuel metering between E-85 and regular gas. I will try to find this add and post a link when I find it. As demand from we the people increases federal state and local laws will have to conform. Highway taxes will still have to be collected for our roads and there are many other legal matters to over come but it is well worth looking in to. I have a few friends that are successfully making their own bio-diesel now. So Oly Kutznsandz I wish you luck and urge you not to get discouraged. Our State Government has already taken the first step in squashing the home bio-diesel makers here and they have done it in the name of protecting the environment with a new law to stop light weight diesel vehicle sales come 2008. Protecting the environment I don’t think so protecting their highway tax that’s what they are doing. Hey environmentalist beware they are using you!

Hey Grant, I need to find some 3 inch type L copper pipe for the body of the distillation unit. You know anybody around here that might have some? (I'm in Rochester) I need about 6 feet of it.
David

I've been wondering about running e-85 myself. The local grain milling company is setting up a new plant just to mill corn for making E-85, plus there's going to be an E85 plant built nearby. I do know that the rubber components need to be compatible, that's not too hard to do, the flaps has hoses and O rings that are good for that. I did read a book some time back when I was in college (1990-91) that told how to convert to straight ethanol. I seem to recall that the author used either a ford or chrysler product with a small v8 and Holley 4bbl. What he did as far as jetting was to go up 4 sizes on the main jets. I don't recall whether there was anything done as far as replacing or lining the tank, or installing stainless lines, but it has been a while since I read the book.
I might see if I can take a look at the book sometime, if they'll let me in the library.

Not sure what type L is have you tried local hardware outlets?
Have you looked in to the legalities of distilling you own alcohol fuels? I would like to know for my self.
I haven’t found that add for the E-85 carb yet but I think it was in Hot Rod. Remember thinking it was too expensive but things like that always seem to come down in price as time roles on.

Here Grant,
check this site out and you will know about as much as I do. I bought the blueprints. If you want to take a look at them we can get together for a cup of coffee or something. I'll email you my phone #. From the research I have done, it looks like they have relaxed the laws a bit lately in an effort to encourage alternative fuels. You DO have to have a permit from the Bureau of Alchol, Tobacco and Firearms but the permit is free. You just have to go through the process and it can take a couple months. I think they require you to denature the alchohol to make it undrinkable, but that is fine with me. I just want to run my vehicles on it.
http://running_on_alcohol.tripod.com/id5.html
David

Oh, one other thing... I just got that aluminum tank last night and I was thinking it should be pretty simple to anodize the inside. Just pull out the send unit, fill the tank with electrolite and drop the anode in thru the opening for the send unit. That should protect it from the alcohol. Would a battery trickle charger work for a power source for anodizing? Hmmmmmm.....
David

I've been using electrolysis to remove rust from some of the parts I have. I have a garbage can filled with electrolyte and a 15 amp charger. It seems to work pretty well (bell housing and intake manifold) until the rods get dirty, it drops to 3 amps then. I tried 2 and 6 amps and it took for ever. You probably want more than a trickle (2 amp) charger. I'm not an expert, my 2 cents.

Larry

Hey Larry what do you use for electrolyte? I’ve hear of guys using a heavy baking soda solution. And is it pos or neg to the part? I would like to try it on a few things my self.

I wonder if there is a way you could use an old arc welder for the power supply? Then as the rods get dirty you could just turn up the amperage more...?
David

HevyHauler, I use Arm & Hammer - Washing Soda, you can find it at some grocery stores. Neg to the rusted meta and pos to the sacrificial rods. I use old bed frame for the rods, I've also heard of people using rebar. The folks at the Old Wood Working Machinery web site have quite a few posts on it owwm.org. There maybe something here as well.

David, I think the welder would be overkill, though you probably could. I just pull the rods out, wire brush them off, and the amps are back up. It usually takes about a week for them to get dirty. There seems to be a correlation between the size of what you are removing rust from and the number of rods as to how long it takes them to get dirty.

I've also found out there is more than one type of rust. Rust from road salt is nasty and takes longer.

Larry

Oly,

How do you plan to dry the ethanol/water azeotrope? Use it as is?

Can you get the $0.50/gallon (or is it $0.51) subsidy from the feds or is that just for corn ethanol?

electrolytic de-rusting tech tip - and a good page on it with pictures .... it is washing soda, NOT baking soda, and it doesn't take high amps to work

but you guys kinda hijacked this thread! :hammering:

Bill

Hey thanx Bill that was great. Now back to the subject at hand.

Good thread, David, I'll be interested in hearing how the project goes. This past winter we heated our house with corn for the first time. Since I'll be buying corn in bulk for our stove anyway, I've been thinking about building a small still and experimenting with homemade ethanol in my tank. If it does happen (lots of other projects with higher priority ) I figured I would start by just adding 10% ethanol at each fill-up rather than trying to convert immediately to E85. Keep us up to date.

Don't forget to change out your mechanical fuel pump. You don't want a crankcase full of alcohol.

Good point 4onthefloor.
I have found the E-85 carb that I was talking about. It is looks like a Holley and is made by Quick Fuel Technology.
( www.quickfueltechnology.com )

Quick Fuel is geared more to racing and has both E-85 and alcohol carbs. There is a 500 cfm circle track 2 brl. in the costom carbs

Hey Wally,
I am just getting started on my research and don't even know what ethanol/water azeotrope is...could you enlighten me? Also, I didn't even know there was an ethanol subsidy in existence...I shall have to look into that. If it is 50 cents/gallon that would bring my production cost down to around 50 to 55 cents per gallon. I plan on using feed corn and there are a lot of dairy farms around here where I can sell the corn after I use it for ethanol. I have already talked to some of them and they are interested in it. I have a small pasture that I am growing potatoes in right now, but next year I may grow sugar beets instead for fuel production.
David

Hey Jeff,
The link I included up above (05/20/2007 11:41 AM)is where I get most of my info. If you are interested in building a still, that is the place to check out. There are also links to bulletin boards and such too so there is a huge wealth of info there.
David

Hey Grant,
I couldn't find the 500 CFM carb at that site. The lowest I could find was 750.
David

You can make pretty good tasting ethanol out of potatoes, too.

The Running on Alcohol website has a section on removing the last bit of water (you can't distill ethanol to 100%) from the ethanol.

How Pure Do You Want It?

David, try this it will go directly to the 500 cfm 2brl. http://www.quickfueltechnology.com/home_2.htm
Or not? Ok first click on Specialty Carberators then from there custom class carberators.

Dig deeper in to the web site you have been using David it has got all the info you need to convert your truck and even converting late model EFIs. I could spend all year in there and still not see it all.

Hi Gang,
I just ran across this site (moments ago) and have not had a chance to really look at it, but wanted to share it with any of you who may be interested.
Have a great holiday!
David

http://www.fullflexint.com/

Oh, btw...in answer to Jeff's question above about the ethanol/water azeotrope, I did some more research and found they use a product called 'zeolite' which is a molecular 'filter' that collects all the water out of the 180 or 190 proof ethanol and converts it to 200 proof. Then you can use a regular filter to remove it from the liquid and dry the zeolite on the backyard grill and re-use it indefinitely. Also, it is a very inexpensive product.
David