The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area General Truck Talk seat belts

i know chevy didn't start to factory install seatbelts till 1966 so one thing i was wonder so everything pre-'66 aren't required to have seatbelts by law? or is their some states that do require seatbelts even if the truck didn't come with them from factory? just watchin out for some of this to avoid getting a seatbelt ticket cause minnesota has the click it or ticket thing goin on and my luck i'd get a young cop that probly wouldn't believe me that the truck didn't come with seat belts
Nate

nate, I keep a copy of Ark law pertaining to this in my truck, here it is 71 & later trucks. brian

Yes,Seat belts also in New York.They are available.In addition,my '53 6500 wrecker(16000 GVW) requires a flare kit(modern style triangles)and a fire extinguisher.After July 06 anything over 10,000 lbs.GVW(ie.one ton pick-up)will require DOT numbers if used in business.I guess the state needs the bucks $$$$$

Chapter 169.686 Exemptions....

(1) a person driving a passenger vehicle in reverse;

(2) a person riding in a seat in which all the seating
positions equipped with safety belts are occupied by other
persons;

(3) a person who is in possession of a written certificate
from a licensed physician verifying that because of medical
unfitness or physical disability the person is unable to wear a
seat belt;

(4) a person who is actually engaged in work that requires
the person to alight from and reenter a motor vehicle at
frequent intervals and who, while engaged in that work, does not
drive or travel in that vehicle at a speed exceeding 25 miles
per hour;

(5) a rural mail carrier of the United States Postal
Service while in the performance of duties;

(6) a person driving or riding in a passenger vehicle
manufactured before January 1, 1965; and

(7) a person driving or riding in a pickup truck, as
defined in section 168.011, subdivision 29, while engaged in
normal farming work or activity.


MN State Laws

Type in a key word.

Traffic Laws are chapter 169, registration is 171 and 168.

I hope this helps.

46 IP

in clifornia you need to have seatbelts even if they did not come factory.

In the great state of Washington vehicles pre-72 are not required to have shoulder belts. As far as lap belts I am not sure what the law is. My 61 has lap belts, but I do not think that they are origional. Now that we have the "click it, or ticket" laws here I am not sure what the rules are about vehicles that came without seatbelts. I am pretty sure that lap belts are required for vehicles not origionally equipped with shoulder belts. For example I do not think that I could take the belts out of my 61 and be legal. But I am not 100% sure what the law is. I think that seatbelts are a good idea for any vehicle and I plan on fitting a set of shouder belts to the truck when I get my new seat. I think that I would rather have safety than anything in my old truck. Thinking of smacking my head on that wheel does not excite me, would rather not do that if I can help it.

here if it didnt come with seat belts, you dont have to have them. personaly i believe in them,and thats the one thing that will be in mine. no matter what. after crashing cars as a hobby, im a believer in them.

Most states have an exception for classic/antique vehicles that came from the factory without seatbelts. I like 64fleetside's idea of having a copy of the statute with you in case you run across a rookie cop that doesn't know better.

in Tx, if you have them in your truck, you are required to use them........Fred

The law here in VA doesn't require them if the vehicle did not come with them. Reguardless--I wouldn't be caught without them! I also give my grand chuildren rides in the truck and would not consider doing that without strapping them in.

In TN the law is pretty defined and requires lap/shoulder belts on all trucks begining with 1971.

I dont yet have belts in either of my trucks but it is one of the things on my WISH LIST. I strongly believe in them.

Hobert

According to the link that 46IP posted, seat belts were not required in Minnesota till the early 60's.
I also had one of our cops a couple years ago tell me that, as long as the truck did not come from the factory with them, then seat belts are not required.

thank yall for all the info but i was thinking about it long and hard and i figure i'd better install seatbelts in my truck just to give my ma peace of mind that and seatbelts have already saved my life once (rolled a 1988 Chevy K1500 3-5 times for those of you who didn't know) can't put a price on ones life i spose
Nate

One thing to consider when thinking of adding seatbelts to an older vehicle is the design.

I'm not confident that just dropping a belt and shoulder seatbelt alone in an old truck makes you any safer.. and in some situations could probably do more harm than good.

Passenger restraint is more than just the belt.. it's the overall design of the passenger compartment, in conjunction with the belt that makes it safe.

For instance, in the 1950 1/2 ton I had, the bottom portion of the seat was pretty easy to slide forward. In a front end collision, there is no doubt in my mind that the seat would slide forward.

A '3 point' restraint system (lap and shoulder belt) would keep my body from moving forward, but it wouldn't prevent the seat my butt was on from sliding forward.

Other things to consider would be that most old truck steering columns do not collapse, so in a high speed front impact, you're getting shish-kabobbed weither you have a seatbelt on or not.

More modern vehicles have shock absorbing front and rear bumpers, so if you do get rear ended (or hit something head on) the bumper mounts absorb some degree if the impact. This not only helps reduce the damage to your vehicle, but it also helps keep your body from taking the full brunt of the impact against the seatbelt.

Glass is another concern.. most folks have plain old laminated glass.. that stuff is just regular house window glass with a layer of lamination on both sides.. when it breaks, it breaks in long jagged shards.

I find it interesting that so many folks, in the name of 'saftey' will go to great lengths and expense to move the fuel tank out of the cab, and put in seat belts, yet ignore the three largest dangers in one of those old trucks.. the steering column, the glass, and the 'c channel' frame.

I don't say that to pick on folks who move tanks and put in seatbelts.. I say it simply because it would be tragic.. even deadly to assume that just because you've got some 1978 Pinto seatbelts in your truck, and moved the gas tank to under the bed that it's now somehow 'safer'.

so are you saying its better off without seatbelts or what? its going in a 1964 chevy pickup i know the whole ordeal with the newer cars crunching so its not you who takes the hit and all that so i guess now its not really a concern of legal or not cause thats figured out now i spose is it a good idea
Nate

What is unsafe about a "C" frame profile?
Smitty

Not so much "unsafe" as it is less resilliant to side impact.. which is why saftey consious rodders "box" the frame rails.

My personal position on the subject of saftey in an old bolt is to drive at the speed the vehicle was intended and built to go, and within the limits of the design.

For instance, lets take a 1950 1/2 ton pickup and have a 2002 Dodge Ram 3/4 ton truck 't-bone' it on the driver side at about 45MPH.

No crumple zones, nothing between you an the oncomming truck but that thin little door and a c-channel frame.

You do NOT wanna be strapped in place in the drivers seat in that sort of impact.. because you'll be dead. Getting flung across the bench seat onto the passenger side is gunna hurt, but better than getting held in place while your crushed.

Same truck.. head on collision.. you have a driver in oncomming traffic veer left of center and hit you from about the middle of the grill over to the drivers side headlight. You're doing 50, they're doing 65.

Seatbelt keeps you strapped to the seat, but the bottom portion of the seat slides out from under you, your body drops, and the shoulder strap ends up crushing your throat just before it snaps your neck.. that is, if the steering column dosen't go thru you first.

These old trucks were never designed to be safe.. safety wasn't much of a concern when they were built.. and the flimsy bumpers certianly weren't designed to withstand or absorb any significant impact.

Im saying, in my opinion, that I can think of no senerio where a seatbelt alone in an old truck will play a significant role in saving your life.. and in certian senerios, like side impacts, it might actually REDUCE your chance of survival.

Cabs in these trucks aren't the strongest, either.. in a situation where the truck were to roll more than once, i'd guess the roof would get mashed down like somebody stepping on an aluminum can.. in that senerio, I probably wouldn't wanna be strapped in an upright position, either.. especially not if you consider the giant shards of laminated glass you'd have flying around.

See if you can find some accident scene photos from the 40's and early 50's.. it's nasty stuff.. and I don't think just slapping a seatbelt in would help a whole lot, since again.. a seatbelt is just one component of an entire system of occupant safety.

I'm not saying don't put a seatbelt in your truck.. i'm just saying don't let it lull you into a false sence of security.

so in your opinion what else would you add in addition of seatbelts? for this 64 its getting put on a 4x4 frame and i'm going to make custom bumpers for it to cover up the gap the body lift will make and plan on making it out of some heavy C-channel and make make the front one able to have a winch mounted to it, if i can figure out how to do it
Nate

Nate,

I would add the belts. Think of it this way...would you go to Valley Fair and ride the wild thing without a seatbelt?

As in your case, you were "saved by the belt". My grandpa had a 1959 Apache on his chest for a half an hour....luckily it did not kill him. I understand what F46 is saying about vehicle design, but I would go with belts. My 46 will get them during this rebuild.

I don't care if people wear em or not....but I have seen a lot of people who walk away from some pretty nasty stuff because they wore their belt.

As far as the side impact crashes go, I have seen people killed and kill others by bouncing off passengers...you become a 200 lb feed sack flying around in your truck...if you clobber your sweetheart while flying across the cab....she will be toast...

If you look at the newer vehicles, they have softer materials mounted where people will make impact. some of this we can change in the old trucks, but some not.

Also, one thing to keep in mind in a crash, the law of gross tonnage prevails...if you go up against anything but a semi, you will probably win the war of weight...

46 In Progress you do have a point i know when i rolled my dad's truck that one of my parents biggest fears was if Sonya (my girlfriend at the time) was with me or not and if she was she probly would have been killed because the passenger side was smashed down alot more then the driver
Nate
p.s. since your kinda close to wear i live i'd like to see your 46 one of these days would be fun to talk with a fellow bolter in person

this is from the washington state patrols questions and answers on their web site. "I have an older vehicle. Is it required to have a seat belt?"

Every vehicle manufactured or assembled after January 1, 1965, shall be equipped with at least two lap-type safety belt assemblies for use in the front seating positions.

Every passenger car manufactured or assembled after January 1, 1968, shall be equipped with a lap-type safety belt assembly for each permanent passenger seating position.

Every passenger car manufactured or assembled after January 1, 1968, shall be equipped with at least two shoulder harness-type safety belt assemblies for use in the front seating positions.

Every pickup manufactured or assembled after January 1, 1972, shall be equipped with safety belts.

Rule of thumb: If your vehicle was originally equipped with safety belts, they must be in good working order and must be used.
so the old trucks are grandfathered and it's your call . (in WA that is ) Brice

Along with things like the steering column and non-laminated safety glass I have concerns with the door latches. One of mine was worn so much that each time I hit a bump it would pop open. I had a friend rebuild it by welding and grinding and filing it and although it is like new it is still not as secure a design as a modern latch unit.

The old design cars is why old school stock cars had to have roll cages installed, glass removed, and doors welded shut.. not to mention having the fuel tank put INSIDE the passenger compartment.

olblu49 brings up another weak spot in the old trucks.. the door latches.. in the older trucks like the '46.. the door latch isn't a whole lot different than what you use on doors in your house.

Have a look in a modern car, or even cars made as early as the mid to late 60's.. padded dash boards.. padded steering wheels, lots of padding and plastic to help protect your head from cracking open.

A week ago I was at a tow truck yard, and a gal came in to get some stuff out of her mid 90's full size GMC suburban.. the whole side was bashed in, the frame was bent and in general the truck looked like a big U or a C (depending on which way you looked at it) the tow truck guy said when he arrived at the scene, the truck was laying on the drivers side door.

What hit this big ole full size suburban hard enough to cave in one side and flip it over on it's side, you might ask?

A 1991 Ford Tempo.

I don't know for certian, but my guess is a full size GMC Suburban probably outweighs a Ford Tempo.. I don't know that either vehicle walked away from that confrontation a 'winner'.. lucilly the occupants of both vehicles survived to tell the tale.

IMO, the best thing you can do to keep safe is to drive defensively.. keep your eyes moving, leave yourself an out, aim high in steering, make sure they see you.. most 'accidents' that happen daily in the U.S. really aren't accidents at all.. just cases of folks not paying attention or being careless.

Nate,

As recall, you are from Windom?

I don't get out that way much anymore..I had family in New Ulm...but everyone has passed on or moved on...

If you are ever in the south metro, let me know and you can stop in. My 46 is not much to look at right now...just a huge pile of parts all over the garage. The chassis and all associated parts are back from the powder coater. I am just getting started putting some of the major parts back together...go figure tho..warmest January on record followed by all of this cold stuff!! I need some warm weather...the wife does not take too kindly to having the front of a 46 being put back together in her basement..

no not windom i'm from winthrop just 20 min. north of new ulm hey even though its not together its still something to look at "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" ya i know ain't this weather nuts? january was all nice then feburary is colder then all heck its insane i can understand the puttin stuff together in the house i'm doing bodywork on my 70's bedsides in my moms dinning room/kitchen
Nate

This interesting sub-section is contained in the Florida Statutes pertaining to seat belt usage. Would anyone care to tell me what it means for a truck originally manufactured without seat belts?

Does this mean that I can't have passengers in the front seat?

I think that's a legal way of saying that if the truck only came from the factory with 2 belts then the person sitting in the middle wouldn't be required to wear one.

Dave - what if the truck came from the factory with no belts installed? That's my question.

Thanks,

Don

Here in Lidköping, Sweden, a few years back, a guy driving an Apache pickup was hit making a turn at fairly low speed. He had no belt on, the door came open, he fell out and was run over by his own truck. Now he's up there with his own set of wings. The simplest 2-point seatbelt would have kept him in the cab. I would never drive my kids around in my own truck without them having belts on, and so I have come also to understand why my wife isn't so happy if I go without, either. It's definitly an individual choice, but I don't feel a seatbelt is too great an infringement of my personal freedom.
Karl

The benefits of even only a lap belt far outweigh the consequences of NO belts at all..

My belts are bolted to the frame and a piece of angle iron in the center... i hadnt thought about the seat itself sliding forward tho, so I'm going to see how i can restrain it..

I certainly have no aversion to wearing seat belts and it's about as automatic as turning the ignition key to put them on. One of the first things on my list this week is to secure some lap belts in my truck. Anyone who has already done this is a '41 '46 series is sure welcome to chime in and share their experience.

My steering wheel has obviously seen some serious trauma, and I've often wondered if it was cracked as a result of a body blow. Lap belts wouldn't have helped there but may have when the Viejo truck was t-boned on the right side someday long ago. There's some evidence on the inside of the passenger side door that suggest a good smacking.

In no way do I support driving without seat belts but I will share one of my own teenage experiences. You be the judge.

At the tender age of 16 me and a buddy of mine were returning to the East coast of Florida from Mobile, Alabama. I was driving a 1964 VW, which had a 9' Hawaii Noserider surfboard strapped to the top and about 25 pounds of fresh gulf shrimp on ice in the back seat. My buddy was in the passenger seat. We were headed south, being somewhere up near Perry, Florida at the time. I was concerned about the condition of the shrimp and turned around to lift the lid on the cooler to check their condition. At that moment I felt the car leaving the road and immediately redirected my attention to far weighter matters. By this time it was obvious that I couldn't just whip the car back on the road as we would risk a roll over. Also, I knew enough not to slam on the breaks while transiting down a grassy slope as again the result would not be what I was looking for. What I did see at the bottom of the sloping highway was a large cement culvert kind of dead ahead and a barbed wire post fence outboard of that and paralleling the highway. I decided to "thread the needle" by going between the culvert and fence and a l m o s t made it. Unfortunately, the left front quarter smacked the inert mass of the culvert and it quickly became obvious that the litte bug with us inside was in for a wild ride.

Upon hitting the culvert the VW upended and tail in the air did one of those Olympic style flips with a couple of twist thrown in for extra points. On the first twist I was ejected out of the drivers seat and somehow passed by my buddy still sitting in the passenger seat. I continued on past and either went through the passenger window or door, I don't know which. I'm sure I bounced and tumbled on the ground but remember seeing the car do another spectacular bounce into the air with a twist for more points and then saw my friend come flying out. His uncontrolled ejection appeared just like a surfboard bailing out of a closing wave. He seemed to go straight up while spinning and then straight down to a lifeless lump on the ground. I think the car did a few more tricks in the air before coming to rest in a broken heap.

My buddy was lying face down and not moving, the car was on it's side engine still running, my surfboard was broke in half, and there were 25 pounds of jumbo gulf shrimp strewn on the side of the highway in the outskirts of a slash pine forest town named Perry. I managed to get up and go over to my friend thinking for sure that he was dead. Miraculously he was only knocked out and slowly came to wondering what the hell happened. It turned out that he only had a 4 inch cut on his knee, that took a few stitches to mend, and I, although bruised and sore, didn't have a mark on me.

The car was another story. All four wheels were either broken off or barely hanging on by brake lines and such. The doors where sprung and the top of the car had been crushed down so far that it broke the steering wheel off. What would the result have been had we been "restrained?" Who knows?

Somehow, although many cars had passed us by previously, a Florida State Trooper saw us and stopped. When he got out of his car the site he saw is one I'm sure he'll never forget... two surfer looking dudes picking up shrimp off the ground strewn with car parts, clothes, and a broken surfboard. Tipping his hat and adjusting his shades he asked "What you boys doing?" Me, not feeling too good about the situation and knowing that the day was only going to get worse when my father arrived, answered "picking up shrimp, what's it look like?" Smokey wasn't amused and wrote me a ticket for failure to have control of the vehicle.

When my father and mother arrived about 3 hours later my buddy and I were sitting in a restaurant having a steak dinner celebrating life in general. My father was not amused at our antics and proceeded to go rather ballistic. I suggested that we take a ride to the impound yard and take a look at the car before he started wailing into me. We did. He took a look and gave us both a hug as there was on way on God's earth that we should have been standing there breathing. The impound guy gave my dad $35 for the car and we did make it home with about 10 pounds of so of shrimp which my mom fried up as she could do so well.

Travis.

Here is part of the California seatbelt law...

(f) Every owner of a motor vehicle, including every owner or
operator of a taxicab, as defined in Section 27908, or a limousine
for hire, operated on a highway shall maintain safety belts in good
working order for the use of occupants of the vehicle. The safety
belts shall conform to motor vehicle safety standards established by
the United States Department of Transportation. This subdivision
does not, however, require installation or maintenance of safety
belts where not required by the laws of the United States applicable
to the vehicle at the time of its initial sale.

The way I read this, you aren't required to have seatbelts if it wasn't the law when the vehicle was first sold.

I'm with you RustyRod. I have been a paramedic for 16 years and have worked on countless critical MVA's involving all kinds of different vehicles. It's true that older vehicles are not built to todays safety standards. They do not absorb impact energy nearly as well, thus a much greater amount of that energy makes it to the passenger compartment, potentially hurting you. And that is the reason you should install and wear them.

There are 3 impacts in a collision:
1) The impact of the vehicle to whatever it's hitting.
2) The impact of your body to the interior of the passenger compartment.
3) The impact of your internal organs, including your brain,against the inside of your body.

Any increase in 2&3 above will multiply the injuries you receive. Reducing your movement in the passenger area in an accident is the whole idea of wearing seat belts. This is what saves lives! Are there isolated incidents where seat belts contributed to injuries? Yes. But, they are few and far between.

A great amount of thought needs to go into how you install them, though. As fumblin46 suggests, your attachment points are critical and movement of the seat in relation to those need to well though out.

This is what I'm gonna do with the 57 I just bought. Regardless of what the law says I can or don't have to do, I will install lap and shoulder harnesses, strenghten the weak areas and use them.
My 2cents.

I think every jurisdiction has an exception for older vehicles. If a vehicle did not come with them from the factory, which all did by law after a certain date ( late 60's to early 70's) you don't have to retrofit your vehicle and will be legal without them. Common sense ( and lots of statistics) say seat belts save lives. I would NOT drive or ride in any vehicle without at least lap belts, nor would I allow any passenger to ride without being belted up. If only one person in a vehicle is not belted and you are in a collision then that person will be flying around inside the vehicle doing lots of damage to them and others.