The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Engine Shop Electronic Ignition, is it Really of any value????

Things been getting a bit slow around here lately, maybe it has something to do with the
holidays? So I thought I’d stir the pot up a bit, I’m sure this is going to bring out as much
opinion as who the Republicans are going to dangle in front of us next year.

Take a 1930’s, 40’s 50’s or 60’s Stovebolt with stock well tune ignition system as our
example. That 6v or 12v ignition system orta be perfectly adequate to light the fire under
it if it‘s in top notch condition. And once you set of the explosion all the ignition in the
world isn’t going to make any difference in the performance of that mixture. So, I don’t
think there is any debate as to the specific purpose of the ignition, that being just to light
the fire at the right time by jumping a spark across a gap. Accomplishing that purpose is
our spark plug, be it AC, Champion, Autolite, Bosh NKG and on and on, they are all
simply a vacuum tight electrical feed thru with a spark gap at the end.
The flame front in a Stovebolt is only going to move as fast as the fuel mixture will allow
it to. Some engines with a large bore and large combustion chamber such as a 360cu.in.
aircraft engine stuffed into four cylinders use dual ignition and fire off the mixture from
both sides of the cylinder to achieve complete combustion. Now if you could figure out a
way of adding a plug to the driver side of the Stovebolt to fire off the mixture from both
sides you may see a very small increase in performance, but of course that’s impossible
without redesigning the head.
Now if you take a modified, high revving, high compression, high performance engine,
then there may be a need for upgrading to a hotter electronic ignition if the engine isn’t
already equipped with one.
I often see threads and replies to thread making claims that converting to electronic
ignition and/or switching to a “Super Plug” increased the fuel mileage significantly, some
have claimed 25% improvements.
Sorry but I’d have to see the scientific proof of that before I’d buy it because that just
goes against all logical thinking in my book.
The last thing that will probably get tossed out on the table is reliability. Kept well tuned I
don’t think you can install a more reliable ignition system on a Stovebolt than it came
with. I’ve got two of them that have been reliable for well over half a century. Who could
ask for more.
Denny Graham
Sandwich, IL

Hi Denny, the pot is boiling. The Lycoming and Continental flat engines fire both Magnetos staggered, that is to say not simultaneously. So your flame front theory is confirmed. Also back in the late 30s the old CAA mandated 2 magnetos as a safety requirement and I think the upgrade to 2 mags made the extra performance just happen with the addition of the extra mag. The coil and point ignition on our old trucks/cars is all they had back then. The modern HEI without points to burn and go out of adjustment eliminates the need for the old fashioned tune ups every 8000/10000 miles. You remember those, points, plugs, rotor, distributor cap, plug wires, maybe coil adjust dwell, point gap etc, etc. I don't think Its a question of performance as much as not having to do tune ups. I drove my 96 Chevy 4.3 1/2 ton 230K and never changed a plug. Thats what HEI does. It keeps the maintenance down. I don't know that the performance is that much better than a well adjusted old fashioned points and plugs system. So you are 99.9% possibly, maybe, almost correct in your claim that HEI is no better. Some of us would rather cruise than tinker. I know you as you admitted to me would rather tinker than cruise. Did you ever sell that Pitts and get that hangar cleaned out? I am still coming to Sandwich for that cup of coffee. Too cold now, no heat in the sub, maybe in April? Is this the 21st century? Happy turkey day!

Weeds

I've heard that electronic ign is a major contributor to the longevity of engines these days since the timing remains the same as opposed to the points wearing and letting things get out of synch.
I know these engines were expected to be rebuilt every 60k or so back in the day so whats the difference between then and now with 200k being normal?
What do you guys think?

Uh, I'd say the increased longevity these days is due to a few things. One, most people don't overload their trucks anymore. Also, oil is much better these days, and of course we have pavement these days, not dusty old gravel.


I'll jump on Denny's bandwagon, and say I like points. I generally get about 8-10 thousand miles from a set, and I only check/ adjust them every 4000 miles, that's when the plugs need to be cleaned or replaced anyway. When you set new points, you set them "wide" so they wear in. I don't think a degree of timing change is the cause of much trouble, unless you are running a "racing" engine, and have the advance right on the ragged edge.

Points are simple, and setting them is fun.

Fun:
Charging a condenser in high school auto shop and strategically placing it on the ground for someone to find and pick up.
Sadistic rats we were...
I put an HEI in mine. I guess I've spoiled myself to the luxury of not tinkering... then again that tinkering and knowing how, is half the fun isn't it?
I may have to chew on this a while... GREAT TOPIC!
Jerry

As Ron Popeil said, "set it and forget it" (except, with an electronic ignition, Pertronix in my cases, you just install it and forget it).

I do not know and I do not care if my trucks have a hotter spark or better gas mileage. I do think they start more quickly with the Pertronix in than with the points in, but this is not based on "scientific" evidence.

Yes, I have read about other truckers' Pertronix-failures but, after 13 years, I have not experienced any failures (two sets, 6v and 12v Pertronix on 235s and 261). I'll probably put a 6v positive-ground Pertronix unit on my 54/55 GMC 270 engine next summer.

I carry a back-up distributor with points/condenser as an insurance policy (it will work in all my GM trucks).

There is nothing wrong with using points/condenser.

Well I love to tinker, and that being said, I easily go 10,000 miles on my truck without tinkering with the points, plugs or condenser. Runs great, starts great.

The reason I like having an old truck is because it IS old. I just like lookin' at the old stuff and thinking about how well it really does work. So no HEI for me.

On my antique tractors, I have magnetos. Now there is a really reliable ignition source. I know a number of antique tractor pullers who have switched back to magnetos from electronic ignition because they are reliable, simple and cheap.

Just because it's old doesn't mean it's no good. Speaking of myself here LOL.

Kurt

Sinced I'm tired of getting raked over the coals by self-appointed experts, I'll express my opinion once, and let everybody else hash this one out.

Yes, electronic ignition is better.

Jerry

What he said x2...!!!

x3

Interesting thread. I agree that oil and oil filters contribute the lions share of the difference in longevity but this was about points.
I can't see where properly maintained points would be a factor but there was the rub. Maintained.
What happens when the timing is off from worn out points (you know, the pitted been way to long kind you might of found in your engine that first meeting under the black berries) and maybe some valve lash off from similar neglect and the kid hops in playing Parnelli Jones? (Not that that would ever happen to anyone here...)
How much damage gets done on the first fifteen hundred miles past change time?
I'm just asking cause Denny threw it out and I can't see much difference other than one needs tinkered with regularly and one is a bit of a gamble as far as replacement cost may go, so I was looking for something to REALLY justify one or the other. Cause as I see it it comes down to one's personality type as much as anything else.
One guy tinkers while another guy drives then when the tinker guy is out driving he stops to help the guy who was driving when he breaks down. Oh Wait. That was back in the day...

(For full transparency I run Pertronix with a points back up)

At the risk of being redundant, I'll say x3. And for the reasons most have said - it's not performance (per se) it's reliability and driveability. Mine had HEI from the previous owner but started after sitting for over six months, it idles smoothly and starts on the first crank every time. I had an older Porsche and when I switched to electronic ignition, it idled smoother and revved smoother. If you truly enjoy doing your own tune-ups, including setting point gaps and dwell, feel free to have fun. If you're looking for care-free driving, electronic is the way to go.

Don't get bashful on us, Hotrod. I've found your "opinions" to be both useful and highly and substantially factual.

Told ya I wanted to stir the pot up, guess it worked!

Denny G.

Denny, you rascal you.

Weeds

I read an article a while ago where they showed some data on the nature of the conventional spark through various rpm levels and conditions. It turns out that the points ignition spark is a big compromise but it gets the job done. I notice on my friends V12, it has a dual point setup, each set serving six cylinders. I can only assume that generating spark at higher RPMs for twelve cylinders is beyond the capability of one set of points.

I seem to bring out the worst in any electronic ignition system. After walking a few times with failures on newer vehicles, I carried new ignition modules in the glove box and the necessary tools to change them (screwdriver).

Because of these experiences, I REMOVED the HEI from my performance street car and replaced it with points and condensor and they work fine to a 7000 RPM redline.

But go ahead and convert to the electronics. That means more original points and condensors left for me

But a "word to the wise":

If you convert to the popular "points elimination device", upgrade to an alternator at the same time. And if you have a Pertronix installed, and have "carburetor" issues; try putting back the points and condensor BEFORE you rebuild the carburetor.

The real reason for the invention of cell phones .........................to call the tow truck!!!

Jon.

Since I'm trying to make this choice right now with engine being rebuilt, I'll throw this out. I'm leaning toward staying with the points and condensor setup because for the $$ for the HEI set I could buy about 3 lifetimes worth of tune ups. Plus I'm one who likes to tinker.

So, then, use points/condenser.

I have run both and both worked very well. I have HEI in now and like the way it starts and idles, both of which it does better. As far as running down the road, no real difference, at least from what I can tell. I still have the points set up, don't think I would ever use it again, the HEI is fool proof as far as I am concerned, and since I have to live with it, that all that matter to me.

Joe

TO ME IT'S THE BEST THING SINCE A SHIRT POCKET..

CAN YOU LIVE WITHOUT IT..SURE...BUT WHY??
CHEAP..EASY...RELIABLE

O, someone said Pertronix, That should stir the pot. I know that get them going. Well I switch from point to the Pertronix and let me tell you, there was no difference. Other then I no longer have to adjust the point it has the same power. I would convert to HEI if your looking for more power. Pertronix works great but as a stock reolacement you will get no more power.

My comment, i have a mini HEI.

I changed mine to hei because i learned how to wrench on my 80s chevy's so it's what i know. But, as far as cost, I paid $50 for my brand new setup two years ago and I have had no trouble so if you want to run it, shop around a bit. I never touched the points in my truck and never had any trouble while running them though

Well, I think I succeeded partly, that is at least in getting the pot is simmering. Thought
I’d wait a while before stepping in again, but from most of the replies it appears that I
failed in getting my original intent across, either because of the heading I put on it or in
the way I worded it.
The original intent of the thread was to take aim at what I conceder myth as far as
electronic conversion and special spark plugs increasing fuel mileage when used as a
replacement in a stock Stovebolt Six.
It was not to say that SS electronic ignition or systems controlled by an engine ECU with
multiple coils were inferior to the Kettering system of ignition. Nor was it to say that the
Kettering system was not an obsolete system compared to the modern electronic systems.
It’s obvious to anyone with an ounce of common sense (even a self appointed expert like
me) that a system with more components will require more maintenance. And with more
components to fail will not be as reliable as the ignition systems that have evolved over
the hundred years since it’s invention. There is no sense in getting into the theory of
inductance here but the bottom line is that a high-tension spark gets weaker in proportion
to the rpm, because it takes ‘T‘ amount of time for the field to build in any particular coil.
As the engine speed increases a single coil simply doesn‘t have enough time to fully
saturate. However, that really isn‘t a significant factor in an engine that rarely exceeds
3,000 rpm which is what I was aiming at and a well tuned stock ignition system in a
Stovebolts is certainly up to the task.
So, it’s Fuel Mileage guys. Whether or not these SS systems and super plugs contributed
to better fuel mileage in a Stovebolt six, that was supposed to be the focus.
Ya’ll have a good Thanksgiving,
Denny Graham
Sandwich, IL

I guess in many ways I'm ignorant on things. But I can't see changing from one type spark plug to another giving a "significant" boost in either power or mileage.

I can see where the HEI ignition would / could give a hotter spark, but on these old stovebolt engines that are stock I can't see where that is a great advantage except for reliability. But if the points are properly maintained, you shouldn't have reliability problems anyway.

Perhaps there are some videos out there floating around that show the old style spark plugs firing vs a newer "better" plug. It would have to be slowed down considerably to be able to see the differences (if any) of the firing capabilities of the two types of plugs.

But in fire academy we learned about what is called "Limits of Flamability". If the fuel to air ratio is too lean, it won't burn (or at least not very well) and likely wouldn't run an engine, if the mixture is too rich, it won't fire very well either. And with gasoline the air fuel mixture is pretty narrow window on what will burn correctly and what won't. Whether is is delivered by carb, or injector that mixture can only be so lean before it either won't run, or won't run very well.

Claims of 30 + mpg with a 216 or 235 just seem far fetched to me. My VW Passat does well to get 30+ mpg and it's 4 cylinders in a car that's a fair amount lighter than these stovebolts.

I can see a good tune up bringing the mileage up a little, but I just can't see 25% better just by changing plugs to a different style. But again, I'm fairly ignorant on these things. Maybe someone knows a secret I don't.

I can say from actual personal experience that a GM HEI will give better fuel mileage on a stone stock 78k mile '64 C10 running a 230/3 speed than a properly tuned points setup. I got close to 1 MPG improvement. I did regap the (same)plugs to .045 & was able to lean the idle out & still get it smooth. Old truck got 15 MPG consistently, HEI got it up to 15.9. I never tried any high dollar plugs-I use basic Autolites.

I know the 230 is not the same design as a 235, I know the newer dizzy prolly had a different curve(was robbed from 75 C10). I feel the leaner idle had much to do w/the mileage improvement. This was averaged over several tanks, same pump used always, odo was checked against GPS & found to be spot on.

HEI = electric windows
POINTS = roll your own windows
I prefer to hassle with other maintenance issues than points, plugs, etc.. (Suum cuique)

If a points ign. misses once out of 700 times and an electronic misses once every 7000 you'll get a bit better mileage. Mileage just doesn't belong in the same sentence with. Stovebolt. Now if someone would start making 3:90 gears again.

I believe HEI and wide gap plugs were designed to ignite a leaner mixture.
On a 235 that is running a little on the lean side HEI may help performance and fuel mileage a little.