The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Engine Shop ZINC oil confusion ?

HI ALL,
OK... I read the article in Classic Truck about less zinc in motor oils being the cause of cam failures. Now several questions: It seems to me that the cam failures were on hot rodded engines or newly re-built high performance sixes...what about my old 1954 3100 235 built between 1955-57 it's stock engine with the Rodchester 1BBL. carb. and canister oil filter? All this talk of special /oils like Rotella for diesels in classic straight sixes? Now I'm araid to change my oil! ALSO, have any of you used Motorhead Hi-Z motor oil, "The very best for FLATT TAPPET engines". I have been told my year engine has Hydraulic lifters so what about the zinc rich oil for my truck..... will the cam flat spot without the zinc? Dosen't oil lubricate between the cam and lifters....what the heck do I NEED for a Sunday driver ....CONFUSED and proud of it, THANKS Steve

Steve,

You are a victim of 'hype'! Everything you stated above is true so you have answered your own question. For your engine, any oil will work fine. If you have hydraulic lifters, all the better...a shock absorber between lobe and valve spring.

If you ruin your motor by selecting the wrong grade of premium motor oil, I will personally come to Turbo-town (SF) and paint your house two coats of your favorite colour/color, as long as it isn't grey/gray!

Stuart

Atomarc...Hype is the word! I wish when a tech. article is written like the one I mentioned the author would streamline the information to which types of engines and cams failed and or what the failure was and the imperical evidence that proved the failure. They just rattle on and confuse the issue even more with their pseudo science. Just like oil addtives once you look into them you will find that many hurt engines and most are of no use at all just "hype". If you use an oil with all of the correct ASIC certifications that's all you need. If its a special engine perhaps you need a special oil and that is outside the realm of the average engine old or new. A little know fact is that the Chevron Oil Co. is the largest blender of oil and oil additives in the USA they have the largest test facilities in the world and blend oils for most of the major brands you see on the shelves today so its all comming from one company. For my 235 10-30wt and or 10-40wt is all "we" need. T/C Steve

I know an 84 year old mechanic - really knows his stuff. He always told me any named brand oil made today well do the job better than any oil they made when are stuff was new. I would agree with the post, just keep it clean and drive it. The old engines well hold up fine, Tom

But wait!, there's more to read:
Flat Tappet Cam Tech - Righting the Wrongs

Stuart: I am the author of the article you have characterized as "hype". Your timing is perfect because my house needs painting. Thanks for your offer! I am more than happy to provide the wiped cams for your review along with the tappets, which is what you have asked for so I'm ready to show them to you. Come on down - but don't forget your painter's pants.

You might want to proceed with caution in such offerings, unless of course your research into this topic has uncovered data that is contrary to that published by the AERA and all the other industry sources which I cited. I very carefully listed the sources of the information in an attempt to provide facts so you can do your own research. I invite you to help me publish a corrected article by showing me your facts so I can retract my "hype" statements.

In response to WhoMe's request "I wish when a tech. article is written like the one I mentioned the author would streamline the information to which types of engines and cams failed and or what the failure was and the empirical evidence that proved the failure. They just rattle on and confuse the issue even more with their pseudo science", well honestly I'm not sure where to begin there.

A good place would be for you to contact all of the sources I cited and review the very empirical data that you say is missing. I did exactly that - I not only cited the sources I gave details about the type and nature of these problems! Of course, one would need to read the whole article and then review the sources cited, but exactly what you ask for is there if you take the time to read it. WhoMe: are you looking for scientific answers, or just for something to attack behind the safe anonymity of the internet?

I respectfully point out that while atomarc expressed a strong negative opinion, he did not provide any factual details or data to support his view that my article is "hype". I think a review of the facts might make him reconsider his position. WhoMe, you ask for facts but quickly embrace the hype in this thread with absolutely no information. Which way do you really want it...facts or pseudo science? How much have YOU researched this topic before you jumped on the negative bandwagon?

I also find your comment "A little know fact is that the Chevron Oil Co. is the largest blender of oil and oil additives in the USA they have the largest test facilities in the world and blend oils for most of the major brands you see on the shelves today so its all comming from one company. For my 235 10-30wt and or 10-40wt is all "we" need." very interesting. Would you please provide the source of your data behind that statement you present as "a little know [SIC] fact"? When you say they are the largest blender of oil, is that gasoline engine motor oils or something else? We wouldn't want to advance any pseudo science here now would we?

While I try to keep an open mind with all opposing views, the preceding comments are quick to dismiss this problem but fall short of providing any facts to back up that opinion and view. Isn't that sort of thing what people refer to as hype?

The focus and central issue raised in the article is recent changes in gasoline engine oil formulations and how that is impacting vintage flat tappet engines. You spoke of the hydraulic lifter engine in a way that leads the person who started the post to believe because he has hydraulic lifters, his lifters are not flat tappets and he need not worry. Hydraulic lifters on his 235 are flat tappets - are they not? Please tell me how they are not - scientifically of course.

These engine oil formulation changes have all been within last 18-24 months and I wonder just how current an 84 year old mechanic is with American Petroleum Institute ratings and their respective changes in last few years. No disrespect to the individual, but one of these posts suggests that an 84 year old mechanic is more knowledgeable than the API, AERA, and other cited source, and that is a pretty amazing endorsement - but I'm sure the facts will be provided here to back up that view.

The purpose of the article was to raise awareness of changes in engine oil formulas that are affecting vintage engines adversely. If you are going to dismiss these chemical formula changes as "hype", then at least back it up with facts and data. I did on my article, so please show me your sources for your data.

If it was hype, the American Petroleum Institute, the AERA, Shell, Mobil, and HotRod Magazine all need to also hear from you so you can set them straight on this topic just as you have set straight the readers of the Stovebolt Page bulletin boards.

Good thing you guys are here to stop all this hype.

I will through in a cam and a lifter that was wiped smooth if you need more proof!

It took about 500 miles till the lobe was completely gone! The new cam and lifters with GM oil adative and Rotella for the break in, has over 8000 miles now and working great.

We now run over the counter oil (10-40)with GM adative in everything old, thanks to all the magazines "hype". Joe

I've been avoiding this one, seems there's many opinions on what's really happening with this issue. Plus, I got flamed royally on another site for simply relaying some info I found out, including questioning my abilities as a mechanic.
Now, I asked around, particularly, I asked the machinist that did my 235. he has well over 50 years doing machine work, and has seen more engines that I care to count. From what he told me, there's more to it than just an oil additive problem. Somewhare, tha cam manufacturers have gotten sloppy, be it not propely hardening the cams or incorrect lifters. There could be issues with incorrect installation in some cases, too. Valves set too tight will make a lobe go flat, as will exessive spring pressures. Not saying that anyone here has done that!
One thing I find odd is the suggestion of using deisel grade oil to protect flat tappets, seeing as virtually all deisels have used roller lifters since the '40s.
Now, I'm not saying anyone is wrong. I just believe that there's more to it than just the oil. As for myself, I'm sticking with Valvoline Super HPO 30 wt. I checked the Valvoline site, it seems to have a higher Zinc amount than other oils, and they haven't changed it for '07.

OldCarKook,

This was a poor choice of words on my part. It wasn't directed toward the article you authored..I haven't read this article, although after the severe lambasting, I tried to find it.

The original question in this thread was from a member that wanted to know if reduced amounts of zinc in modern motor oils would adversely affect the camshaft and lifters on his fifty year old engine and lead to catastrophic failure.

My limited research led me to believe that a well broken in engine of this age, running a stock camshaft and stock valve springs was not a candidate for the failures associated with reduced levels of zinc in motor oils. Isn't this true?

Applications in the high risk category are flat tappet equipped vehicles running non-stock performance cams and valve trains. Isn't this what the Hot Rod article indicates?

You have obviously done lots of research on this subject and I have done little.

I think most members of this site need to know that their old engines will be fine on a diet of any quality motor oil.

Stuart

Oldcarkook, I read the article and other threads, I got no problem admiting I am a novice and no mechanic. I also take about everything that old mechanic ever told me as the gospel. However he as been retired quite a while now and as I read this is recent stuff. After reading your info and the other articles, I think I will be looking for Rotella. Being a novice, I was just expressing my opinion and did not mean to give falting info to anyone. Anyway thanks for that info, Tom.

OldCarKook,

When these old engines were shipped from the factory in the '40's and '50's, their crankcases were full of unsophisticated non-detergent oil. Although I haven't done the required research, I will bet this oil contained no zinc. If you are running a hopped up 302 with full race cam and double valve springs, this zinc thing becomes a very important issue.

When someone tells 'Joe Stovebolt' the lumpstick in his 216 is going to go flat unless he grabs some Shell Rotella motor oil, they are doing him a dis-service by spreading misleading information.

Stuart

hmmm - I'm kinda with Longbox Bill, Stuart and WhoMe - seems that the folks who've had problems they attribute to the oil formula change have fresh engines, with who-knows-what cam/valve assemblies, NOT folks with high mileage original engines that keep chuggin along regardless of even getting oil changes, and the folks making the fuss over it are the hi-po crowd stressing the design for greatest fuel consumption

my 235 had 50,000 original miles when I got it, after another 35,000 I put on it, still runs fine - the 58 with a rebuilt 283 [stock except for overbore] is also running fine ..... if it takes as little as 500 miles to ruin a cam I musta got one made of kryptonite or something

Bill

WHO, ME ? posted a few, reasonable questions about an article in Vintage Truck Magazine. That "TECH TIPS" article includes references to multiple engine rebuilders, and engine rebuilders associations, and oil manufacturers.

The article did refer to "soupped up engines" but it also referred to potential problems with " . . ANY flat tappet engines." (J & M machine of Southborough, MA). A flat tappet engine can be any engine that has mechanical or hydraulic flat tappets.

The J&M quote above was in reference to a Technical Bulletin issued by "The Automotive Engine Rebuilders Association (AERA), and the whole quote is "The bulletin cautioned its member rebuilders to use diesel engine oils plus break-in additives for the initial break-in on any flat tappet engines." Read the on-line article linked-to by BlueBolt, above, for additional information.

Significant changes have recently (last several years) taken place in the most formulations of non-diesel engine oils (to meet emission standards and to not cause harm to emmissions-related sensors). Soon, more changes in formulations will most likely occur and the Zinc (ZDDP) content will become low to non-existent even in diesel oils.

The conclusion of Rob English's Tech Tip was a suggestion to use ZDDP-containing oils, if possible, and to add GM's Camshaft and Lifter Prelube at every oil change (GM part number 12345501). Seems reasonable to me. Thank you for the information and advice, Rob.

I will always listen to 84 year old mechanics about the old days, but I take with a grain of salt the old boys' opinions-about and knowledge-about modern products and problems (unless they are up-to-date on the products and problems). Oh yeah, I think it is a good idea to read a technical article before criticizing it's contents and the merits of the information provided.

Tim

is the article refered to by who me in classic truck magazine the same as the article in the current issue of vintage truck magazine?

kb3: Yes, the subject article is in the current issue of Vintage Truck.

I'm not looking to start a debate here and in fact the first words of my article are "I don't want to open a flood-gate of opinions about engine oils and what works best for what engines, but I do want to caution readers that recent changes in engine oil formulas potentially have a significant affect on vintage engines."

My hackles definitely go up a bit when dismissive remarks about my work are advanced without any supporting facts. I spent many months doing the research and this topic was discussed at length on our oldGMCtrucks boards, the Inliners boards, and in the engine rebuilding community. This was not a topic which simply fell out of the BS tree one day and I printed it.

The point of my article was to raise awareness that "things have changed" in oil forumulas so be careful. I didn't suggest that others change from what they've done, but I did point out that I chose to make a change to diesel formulated oils on my gasoline engines after years of brand loyalty and flawless performance using Castrol GTX. Others for whom I have tremendous respect have not made any adjustments to their oil choices in their flat tappet engines. It is a personal issue and oil loyalty is second only to old truck brand loyalty.

I also point out, as tclederman correctly did, that all the data I collected (particularly that from the AERA) focused on break-in periods as the time frame for these problems and they only suggest use of these protocols during break-in. I personally have chosen to run with diesel oils and additives beyond break-in on all my motors (not just vintage). It is my opinion that if the reduction in these important lubricant additivies is sufficient to wipe a cam in 500 miles during the initial break-in phase, then I can't see how it could not still contribute to excessive wear beyond the break-in period.

Lastly, Mike Aldrich who is an engine builder that is the most knowledgeable engine guy that I have access to, told me to run diesel oils only full time. I do what Mike says since he builds my motors.

My drift on all of this is "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure". But that doesn't mean others need to follow suit or listen to anything Chicken Little is squawking about.

Now, about that new paint job on my house...it's not gray and I don't want gray. [img]http://www.oldgmctrucks.com/smilies/poke.gif[/img] [img]http://www.oldgmctrucks.com/smilies/icon_smile_big.gif[/img]

I read the article and was considering the change to 15-40 diesel oil even though my engines are not fresh rebuilts. There is a new Diesel rating CJ4 for the low emission 2007 engines which is supposed to be backward compatible though more expensive than the ci oils. i will keep watching this thread for more input.

WhoMe: I read the article in Classic Truck about less zinc in motor oils being the cause of cam failures - what about my old 1954 3100 235 built between 1955-57?

OKK: all the data I collected ... focused on break-in periods as the time frame for these problems and they only suggest use of these protocols during break-in

HotRod Magazine: What's the average hot rodder to do?
If you are building up the engine from scratch and intend to run flat tappets, adjust your build specs and technique accordingly .... For you GM guys, there's also the real GM or ACDelco solution.

my read of the HotRod article [back when this situation was first discussed here] told me the cam problems applied to high performance builds, and/or particularly with aftermarket parts made offshore [like JoeHs?]

sounds like Stuarts response was aimed at the original question [old, mass produced, original runners], the articles are aimed at fresh builds .... I'll stick with OEM parts .... and cheap oil

Bill

Tim,

I have never seen the article in question, had no idea who wrote it, and was not making reference to it specifically when I made my comments. Your right about doing research on a subject before opening your mouth, I usually try to do this..you know that!

For Rob English, I apologize for making apparent light of your sound article, that wasn't my intent. I won't be able to paint your house until I am on parole next month...will that be soon enough?

Stuart

As I said the last time we started flinging feces about this subject, I use Rotella T in my engine, because it has the "old" levels of ZDDP in it.

It may well be money wasted.

But what's $10 for oil twice a year versus a new cam, and the time spent dismantling and repairing an engine? I know that my time is worth quite a bit of money, and the time I'd spend tearing down my 216 would get very expensive indeed.

For me, the (perceived) cost to benefit ratio is dramatically skewed in the direction of the slightly more expensive oil. If you're confident that you won't suffer any engine damage, then run whatever you like.

Since you asked, I can only assume that you aren't.

Brendan,

It's great that you are using oil with lots of ZDDP in it. Why would you want to use oil with "old" levels of ZDDP in it. Did the factory fill oil in "Old Number Seven" have lots of ZDDP in it when it went through that critical break-in period. This is the BS that drives me nuts and gets me in deep dookey with the Kook and Dr. Lederman.

Nowhere in those technical articles does it imply that a 1946 216 ci engine will suffer from using conventional gas engine oils. I will bet that two weeks ago you had never even heard of ZDDP, I know I hadn't...it sounds like a venereal disease!

If you choose to use Rotella T, wonderful, but when you lead all your fellow bolters to believe that their engine will suffer instantaneous rectal implosion if they don't use something similar, you are spreading misinformation.

Stuart

Our trouble with the cam was from a break in and not a well used engine. We had medium strength valve springs and Rhoads lifters. The spring seat pressure was not that high so we never thought much about it. About the time the car came back, the first of many articals came out about the oils. There was a question about cheap off shore made cam blanks and lifters. We talked with Rhoads and were assured the lifters were good, so that left the cam and oil. The cam grinder also felt confident the cam was good but they had a lot of complaints about them going flat. It seems they were finding out about the oils at the same time everyone else was.

Heres a bit of information they passed along, most cams fail within the first minute or two. If they live through that, they most likely live a long life. Thats why its so important to have everything ready when you first start a new engine. You will wipe off all break in lube with in the first one or two revolutons, so the type of oil really matters now. With out the zinc and other additives, the cam isn't protected like it once was. Ours was most likely a combination of a questionable finish on a cam lobe and the oil. We will never know for sure, but the since we changed to the diesel oil and GM addative, we haven't had any problems, and every one we talk with has seen the same success.

As for your 50 year old engine, I doubt you well ever see a cam go flat with stock 60 to 70 pound valve springs. A good race spring is in the 120 pound seat pressure with over 300 pound at full lift! Rpm also plays a big roll in how the parts wear, and again, your 2500 rpm engine is not going to wear out many parts.

What Oldcarkook and the other writers are tring to get across is that things are changing and you need to be aware of it. It may not effect you now, but in the future it might.
I run 5-30 synthetic oil in my 250 so the Rhoads lifters will bleed down right. The valve springs are not strong enough to hold the lifters open so they work like the are suppose to with standard weight oil. I don't worry about the cam or lifters because I know they are not being over loaded. I did how ever use diesel oil for the break in.

Joe

OK...OK...it was a great article! I was just ponting out that it was not very clear in its intent. IF the article had been written in non- tech. speak maybe I would have gotten something out of it other than more confusion and more pseudo science. If the article was so helpful why are we all using diffrent oils..... because we all have diffrent beliefs and the article did nothing to dispel any of them FOR ME. Rotella with all the fancy stuff is not for older gas engines check the Shell Rotella site. Here it is with the bark on..older engines 47-55 any standard brand oil that is on the shelf with all the certs is the correct oil to use. Figure it out, its not a "classic" with a racing cam nor with a 350 engine with headers. CLASSIC = STOCK....stick with a major brand oil and that's all you need to know. OR...I guess all of the lubrication engineers at the major oil companies are all wrong and people with cams that fail are all right....get a grip lad. Steve

I was opening a fresh rebuild 235 today with a f...ed cam just because of that.

I recomended Rotella and the propper 20min@2000 rpm cam break in procedure as I do always.

The wise guy used some fancy 20-40 synthetic oil in a fancy bottle of a mayor brand.

He primed the engine and started it but let it idle for 20 minutes to fiddle with the carb and ignition.

Now after 2 months he comes to me and BOOOOHOOOO my cam is bad.

What do we learn?

1. Listen to your engine builder

2. Things arent the way they used to be - oil is one of them

3. Mayor brand oil engineers design modern oils for modern cars - not for flat tapped dinosaurs.

4. if you got a flat tapped dinosaur - use sae 30 dinosaur oil with a good additive and do your cam break in procedure.

my ct2, Frank

Aug 28th, 06, 08:49 PM
The following is a response from Valvoline to an email I sent back in April.

The consensus in the industry is that the current chemical limits of the GF-4/SM category is still sufficient to protect all "street" engines, including older flat tappet foller engines. The engine tests required for a GF-4/SM products is just as severe as the older, higher ZDDP allowed category. For the special applications (aggressive cams, high HP racing motors, ... etc) where the customer needs more ZDDP protection, our NON-GF-4 products still contain the higher levels (such as VR-1 and "not street legal" racing). Valvoline conventional motor oils are still perfectly fine for the older flat tappet applications and will be completely safe for protection........ I just saw this and had to post it....you guys with the fancy cams are the ones in trouble? This kinda of takes the red right off our collective lollypops and them old guys "was" right again!....THANKS, Steve

Valvoline is right, there oils will work fine in old engines, but from I have learned, breaking a new engine, you better have oil with protection in it! That means diesel oil and or Gm break in lube. Joe

yeppers Steve, us 'old guys' don't need fancy cams, red lollipops or expensive oily stuff, we just know how to treat the old girls

Bill

A little something i found on the Crane site. They don't say anything about oil type after break in, though there's good info on breaking in and other causes of cam failure'
http://www.cranecams.com/?show=faq&id=1

HEY you guys/gals.. what about a happy middle of the road approach. Lets say we with flat tappets can/could use a product like Cranes Super Lube Break-in Concentrate part number 99004-1 "zinc rich" with each oil change. The company states that it is to be used during break-in periods. Can it be used at every oil change? I'll send them a RFI unless one of you already has the answer?...We are ALL just trying to the best for our trucks....Steve

But wait there is even more....Some people say that the new API SM / ILSAC GF4 oils will not protect my
older flat tappet / foller valve train set up. They also say you have
removed all the zinc or zddp from your oils.

The oil industry per ILSAC had to only decrease the levels of ZDDP (Zinc)
in certain viscosity to meet new emission standards. The ILSAC rated oils
still have an average of .085 levels of zinc. Testing has shown on standard
OEM set ups that used mild camshafts will still get plenty of protection
from the new rated oils. There is an exception when it comes to extreme
aftermarket applications. If you have a high performance solid lifter set
up with an aggressive cam then you will need to use a quality Racing Oil or
Fleet Oil for break in and normal usage. These oils have an increased level
of Zinc that will range from .14 to .16 and will provide plenty of
protection.


To: VWEBMAIL@Ashland
cc:

Subject: Site feedback from Valvoline.com


The following person submitted a question or comment via the Contact us
form of type Ask Valvoline
First Name: Steven

I can't say for other additives/break in lubes, but the Chevrolet Performance Manual says not to use EOS as a regular use additive after break in as it can cause pre-ignition, mainly due to the calcium and barium in it.

As most of you know I have lost 3 350 chevy engins in last 3 years. Firts origional engine when I got it droped valve. Oil problem I don't know. Do valves get lubed by oil? HUUMMMM. Second engine is a remanufactures motor from a supposally good rebuilder. Cam goes flat. Is this a luberacation problem? HUUMMMM. Same motor new cam 3 months later HOLE wore thru the rocker. Did I say HOLE thru rocker? What lubs rockers? Would you say lube problem? HUUMMM. Same engine new rocker 6 months later, droped valve distroyed motor. Would you say lub problem? What lubs valve guides? You guy's say what you want.I HAVE the expearance with oil problems and I think lack of ZDDP has caused my problems. Oh yea, did I say NO MORE PENNZOIL 30W after 20+ years. I'm talking to them about R&R of my motor. I'll keep you informed.

RESPONSE FROM CRANE CAMS FROM: JERRY CLAY, Lead Performance Consulant

RE: Super Lube 99003-1"it is recommended for break -in, it's not necessary after that". The break-in procedure has also changed. The engine needs to be run between 1500 and 3000RPM for 30 minutes. We recommend that you mark the pushrod, leave the valve cover loose, and when the engine starts, remove the valve cover and verify that all the pushrods are rotating and just as importantly they' re all rotating at about the same speed. Break in oils Shell Rotella T, Delo 400, Mobile Delvac, Pennzoil GT performance racing oil, Joe Gibbs Racing BR, and Brad Penn break-in oil. As for the three diesels oils listed any will do as long as they are not for new API CJ-4 category for late model diesels". [email protected]

Converced with a rebuilber of race moters today, We flat tappet motor guy's better be where. If your not using oil with ZDDDP, buy a lottery ticket...

Looks like Castrol sees a market as a consequence of the zinc "controversy". Check out the footnote - damaging to catalytic converters.

This might be marketing hype but it will appeal to old car owners who are willing to pay a little more for insurance. I wonder if it will cost more than the Rotella formulation that contains zinc? I also wonder how long it will take for the companies who replied above to come up with their own (high-priced) zinc formulations?

So from all I've been reading here, since I am not a mechanic on modern day automobiles, am I to assume that there are no longer any engines being produced that have flat tappet cams and that all engines being made today are roller tappet????
Denny Graham
Sandwich, IL

I prefer straight grade over multi-grades and synthetics on the early 6s.

Right now - it's cheapest to simply add STP red bottle additive to your trusted regular oil brand.

I stocked up on last year's Rotella T SAE30 with CF rating.
By the time it's gone, I'm sure there will be other zinc additive products available.
Some major brands probably will repackage their regular oil with zinc for flat tappet engines.

With so much demand, some marketing guys will figure it out.

Here is a link to a discussion of this very topic on another forum for those wishing to read other's viewpoints

http://www.chevytalk.org/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/166639/

Doug

Well, for me, I rather err on the side of safety. When finishing the 261 rebuild, I used GM EOS for all internal lube issues. Then when breaking in the cam, I filled the crankcase with the rest of the EOS, Valvoline 30 wt (which contains more zinc according to their website) and Lucasoil. Think I'll use up the rest of the Valvoline on the next oil change and possibly switch to the Syntec oil. Looks interesting. Have always used Castrol GTX 20/50 in all my engines of later vintage and have never had a failure of any sort.

Here is what my dad and I decided to run.
http://www.bradpennracing.com/

Turns out a whole lot of dyno shops are using it as well.

http://www.lnengineering.com/oil.html

More oil reading and a good chart of addatives to study.

Joe