The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area General Truck Talk All or none original truck?

What makes a vehicle to be considered "original"? What parts can be changed/upgraded while keeping the vehicle considered "original"?

If there is a rear end gear ratio change, would that remove the originality of the truck or would that be considered an option change? What about brakes and seat belts?

After my Dad recently died, I acquired his 1954 1-ton dually (5-window cab) with dump bed (wheat truck) that runs good and has very little rust. The only thing not original right now it the alternator system (could be reverted to the generator pretty easily). After restoration I don't plan on using it for a hauler and would like to get better speeds out of it for car show travelling, while doing so safely. Is there any way to keep this truck to be considered original while gaining a little speed and safety? If a simple rear end gear change, seat belt addition, brake system safety upgrade would take the originality title off of the truck, then to me it makes sense to go all out and modify it even more with a better transmission, suspension, etc.
Any suggestions? I am mechanically inclined but this will be my first restore project.
Thank you.

There are many different interpretations of original. An original in my opinion still has everything it came from the factory with. When you change the tires, the brake shoes, points & plugs, etc., you no longer have an original vehicle. A repaint is definately not "original".

Some people think "restored to original specs" is the same as original. I disagree. Putting a generator back on your truck will not make it an original.

Wow, that's a pretty narrow view of "original". If that were the case not many, if any, older vehicles would be original if they ever had a tuneup, tire change, new fan belt, etc.
I agree with a repaint.

I always thought original was a vehicle not modified from it's factory form but would allow you to make necessary repairs over time.

Good God Granny,er Cletis.I suppose if you air up a flat tire,it is not original,cause it doesnt have the original air in one tire. I think you are carrying it a way too far.Now I am one of the older hot rodders on this site,but I still enjoy looking at original type trucks. If what you are saying is factual,there would be very very few original vehicles in existance today. Generators wear out over time paint becomes dull if the truck is used at all,tires wear out,etc. By your description a person would have to buy a new vehicle and keep it sealed in a vacuum bag for 50 years,to have an original vehicle.Pick up a copy of the Old car pricing guide,which gives a pretty fair description of different classes of old vehicles.For instance a true number one vehicle is as it came from the factory,and is not driven,it is trailered to car shows.But nowhere does it say a number one has to be completly original with every part or flake of paint it came from the factory with.Many of the number one trucks on display today were old farm trucks that were restored back to original condition.A good freind of mine who recently passed away had a 1957 Chevy convertible. This car was as close to a number one car as I have ever seen.When he sold it,it went for well over 100 grand.But heres the kicker it had a new top on it,new tires,and I imagine many new parts under the hood.However the major parts the engine,trans. rearend,etc, were all numbers matching to the car.I would imagine it was classified as a high number two.I doubt whether there is another 57 in the country that is in any better shape than that car. And when my freind owned it he drove it to shows,and cruisins.As for changing out a generator,doing a repaint,or putting new tires on a car or truck, that is pretty much just standard upkeep.

I don't think it's a narrow view of "original". It's just plain
fact...until someone changes the definition of the word.

I agree a car is only original one time. And only briefly until something is changed. I think using the term restored to original is a better term for most so called original cars.
Cleon

My idea of original is a vehicle that hasn't been modified with non factory/dealer items such as modern oil filters, modern performance engine parts, and modern anything else that was meant to be replaced every few thousand miles. It's different to me when you change out the engine, tranny, and rear end to something else, that's basically the heart of "original." Most anything else that can be replaced affects originality too. Some things you just can't help to replace because these were built to be used and be used hard. I guess it all depends on your idea of original.


The actual original is when the truck is done with at the assembly line, after that it's never going to be exactly as it was.

In my opinion a original truck would be as it was originally equipped from the factory. It should be carrying the original paint, interior and drive train. Normal wear and tear maintenance items re: plugs, points, belts, hoses ect would be expected to be replaced but with the original style part that was originally on the truck. The new term nowadays seems to be "barn-find" for vehicles that are located as originally used and then brought back to life with minor service/repair.

Don

I'm with Bruce and Cletis -- "Original" means just that -- original, nothing changed or altered from when it was rolled out of the factory.

There is a big difference between saying the truck is "original" and the truck is in "original configuration," or "restored to original configuration." As Scott Ward says, "It's only original once."

Narrow? You bet Completely original trucks are rare and special, and should be treated as such.


John

Until you have worked for a dealership and have seen the condition that new vehicles come in, I done think you can pin down the word original. They come in dinged, scrstched, missing parts, and just plain screwed up. It is the dealership's responsibilty to make it sale ready. There are set procedures for refinishing any damage during the pre-delivery inspection. I believe that if a vehicle has been refinished using the same materials and systems that were available at the time that it rolled off the assembly line, it has not lost much originality. In later cars, I have seen people decode inspection paint daubs, reproduce paper tags that were hung around the rear axles, check every component for julian calendar date coding and basically build a full sized model car. My opinion is that this is bad overkill. The bottom line is make the truck to where it has the most sentimental value to you and forget what other people say when they tell you someyhing is not original. The harshest critics are those that lack the nuts to attempt a project themselves. It's yours. finish it so that you know that it would make your grandad smile and be proud.

AMEN!!!

Okay difference from #1 "Original" and #2 "Matching Numbers"

#1.. Going to be extremely hard to find and will be a museum peice if found. I would not even drive it. This means tires, batteries, belts etc. Never have seen one, wonder if Barret Jackson even has sold one?


#2 Very desireable means original engine, body, frame and anything else tied to the VIN. Can mean the engine has been modified, body has been painted etc.

Many collectors and judges are very strict about the official rules and guidelines that define the word original, and rightfully so. They have to defend that definition, as it is the benchmark, or foundation of the entire collectible market.

That is what is best about this site and it's members. For most of us, we like them all.

John

Some of the best advice ever received was "don't trust anyone that uses the words "always" and "never"

I have heard from experts and believe that I have seen instances where they were mistaken at one time or another.

Even if you found that "timepiece" that had the original belts, hoses, and air in the tires, how would you know that it was indeed original? Or do you have to take someone's word for it that no parts has been changed?

The "experts" can't even agree on what the correct engine color or shade is. What makes a person think that they could identify if a wheel bearing was the factory supplied bearing or if it had been changed when the truck was two years old?

Speak with enough authority in your voice, and enough people will believe you that you will make a good show and can be considered an expert also by some people.

If they didn't even have the record keeping to determine what percentage of trucks had any given option, what documentation could ther possibly be to absolute;y determine a truck's originality?

Original as it came from the factory can only happen once in a vehicles life. That is when it is new and never driven.
At our car show we classify an original an a vehicle that is cared for and maintained an it was originally built. We consider original upholstery, and the car can not have been repainted over 35 percent of the body. It still has to have original style wheels and hubcaps.
My 1964 Chevrolet Impala still has the original seat covers which are starting to get a little worn in spots. If I would replace them with original style seat covers that would reclassify it as a restored to original even if that was all that was done. Otherwise it has been maintained with original parts and not modified from the original specs.
That is the great part of this hobby, what appeals to one may not to the next person but there is room for all of us. A lot of the satisfaction you get from an old truck or car is what you do to it yourself, whether it is to keep it the way it was built or not. I like an original vehicle myself, but others like to change them .
Jim

Original?
How far do we go to determine what is original? Are we really talking about air in the tires? Pleease! Worthy of note, would it be not any of the AD trucks that rolled off the line in 52? Or what about the 47? Was not it the original AD? Perhaps it could have been the prototype that was the true original. No better yet, lets type-cast the original to the engineer’s whom assembled it on paper prior to production, or lastly, original; Give it to the first artist whom scratched it out on a napkin. I think we would be more likely to find an artist first rendering of a production series than a 1947 Chevrolet truck with the original air in the tires.

Well lets see here. My 55 has a 350 cu in Chevy V/8 nicely built,attached to a 700R4 tranny. It also has an M2 frontend and an updated rear suspension. Also Chrome Corvette Ralley Wheels,with oversize tire on the rear.And oh my God it is actually painted with John Deere Yellow enamel.Or how about my 1965 1/2 ton shortbed,with a 500 cu in Caddy motor and a 400 Turbo tranny and Mopar paint.I wouldnt trade either one of them for an original truck,cause they are updated just the way I like them.Oh yeah I almost forgot,the 55 still has the original rearend in it,However the 65 does not,it is a rearend from a 1957 Chevy car.Like I posted earlier I do enjoy looking at the so called original trucks,however I am glad that someone else owns them.

Mine is an almost not quite but darn close non original with a few original parts left.

We have a Oldsmobile reunion every year in Lansing where cars from across the U.S. show up. You would be surprised how many cars with original paint, all checked and cracked that show up.
They wouldn't think of new paint.

My point is this, take your paint example, If a person was given the same resources that the factory workers had, how could you tell original paint from only 40 year old paint that had been done using same materials and style of workmanship without taking that paint off to see what was underneath? I have been to those car shows and it is amazing how many people see a crappy cracked paint and imediately announce "look, it has the original paint".

I believe a couple of posts up got the closest by using the words "original style"

Not trying to take anything away from anybody, and not wanting to namw any names, but there is one well known "historian" that you will hear some people almost refer to as a God while others will tell you he is a moron. A well known book that many use as reference to restore their old truck has as many untruths as real information.

How do you prove or disprove an original car by the definition given? take that 35% paint rule, who determines the difference between 34% and 36%?

I like an original style car or truck as much as anyone but truth is, when it all comes down to it, it is your word against someone elses.

So the upshot of all these strong statements - as I read it, Skybum(GREAT handle, by the way) - is that if you intend to drive it, change out the gear ratio and keep the alternator. Pull off the 17" widowmakers, vacuum-seal 'em or something, and install some 16" (or 19" or wotever) radials and drive the old gal or sell her to someone who will! Put seat belts in it if you must, but the brakes are just fine on my '51 because they're up to spec: I had to pull 'er down fast again last week for another cellphone-equipped lamebrain, and nobody got hurt. Double the curb weight and I have to pay more attention, to be sure, but as a professional trucker I can attest to the fact that my '51 is as original as it can be, and as upgraded as it must be to keep working hard. Which was the whole idea, once upon a time.
picture
Oh, and I'd swap them mirrors out for something that works in today's traffic, too. Can't beat the widest-possible fields of vision.

Uh-oh. Screwed the pic posting up again.

To be really honest about it, there is no such thing as a surviving "original" vehicle from the '50's with us today. Restored to original is as close as we can come. A vehicle that has had a fender straightened using bondo (how terrible) and painted with the manufacturer's specified paint number using everything as close to those items available when it was manufactured is still "modified". Every vehicle of that age has had a tune up or flat tire fixed and filled with "new air", so in the strict definition is not original. What's all this B.S. about anyway, we all have our vehicles (whether truck, car, bicycle or whatever) done to our own taste. If you want to keep your vehicle in as near as possible to the original look, that's fine, if you want to change anything about it that's fine too. The bottom line is enjoy your Stovebolt any way you want, it's yours!

I love my 52... It's NOT original.. far from it, but it's fun and it make me and those who see her smile. I did my best to make it look like something from 1952.. An ol' timer came up to me and said "It looks like it rolled off the factory floor.", to which his buddy said "Naw.. they didn't look that good."

Not sure what my point is, except I am glad we have all types out there sharing there love for these trucks and preserving a piece of history.

I agree with the literal defintion of original, but I have also been guilty of calling Old Buck original.

I once heard of a guy who cut wood for 40 years using the same axe; he only changed the handle three times and the head twice.

I'm not quite that guy, but previous owner's and I have changed a few things over the years to keep Old Buck rollin' down the road.

just my .02, Dave
P.S. I love this site, Thanks!

I would agree with all items that aren't expected to be replaced with regular scheduled maintanance as per the original owners/ maint manual. If it was designed to be replaced due to wear and tear,ie tires, plugs, etc, then I believe it can be replaced without losing the title of "original". I'm not sure where you would draw the line otherwise. Gas in tank, oil, air in tires?

[quote=Greg_H]They come in dinged, scrstched, missing parts, and just plain screwed up. quote]

Great! That makes all my trucks original

Bruce

In MY mind the term orginal is as it came equiped....
tires- OE size options - orginal after mkt - modified
maint items - designed to fit the application- orginal enough
drum brakes original
disk brakes - modified
generator org, alt modified
Etc...Etc...
safety/roadablity/$$$$$/Personal choices determine our final product.
Bottom line unless you are looking to make a trailer queen there are going to be a few mods somewhere.
Its your truck...be like Burger King, have it your way.
Just my .02
Brad

Opinions are like......

Skybum, I suggest getting your hands on a better rear end ratio. Tom of TC's Truck Parts has a few center sections that will work. Keep the alternator, swap the wheels for something a little more friendly and drive it. Dear ole Dad will be smiling from up above knowing that the truck is bringing you joy. As far as original, I am with Greg H. Having friends that worked at a GM dealer in the body shop, their greatest customer is GM's transit vendor. about 90% of the vehicles that arrive at most dealers need something replaced, repaired, cleaned, corrected, etc. So if that is the case, the term "original" only applies to the end of the assembly line prior to the TAA section of the plant (Test And Adjust)

Well, I have seen a couple in museums that are suppose to be documeneted as original...as in straight from the factory. I honestly believe that there are some out there....they may not be our specific truck ect but I do believe some exist. They may have to be jump started but there's a few out there.
Now I know we can't believe all we see or read...but for example there is a truck in the Old CArs weekly now that is suppose to have only 56 or 86 miles...I think it was a two digit number as I have not read the complete article yet.
Some folks that have these vehicles will change the tires or battery for show and then put them back in the truck.

That said, I like to go to shows and see cars and trucks with original torn seats, dings, dents, just all around original patina. One of the best I've ever seen was an old truck at a local show which this OLD man had that belonged to his dad who bought it new. I think it was 1923, but not sure now, and it had tags from the 30's nailed in the floor and other places. It was neat to listen to the old guy about him remembering when his dad nailed them down and why. WOW

I'm sure we all have similar stories and that is what it's all about. I think we can all appreciate all "levels" of originality, or restorations. I like them original but I don't have deep pockets so I use what I have, or can get or barter for and at least SAVE a PIECE of history although it may be only a piece.
Isn't this place marvelous!!

This is my opinion on what these definitions mean. We all have an opinion, some are more truer than others. The following is how I approach a truck and I am not looking to show it or have it judged.

Original: As from the factory. No modifications or replaced parts. Does not necessarily mean in pristine condition or show worthy. (Rare to find a thirty year old vehicle in this shape) Sometimes referred to as a Survivor.

In Original Condition: O.E.M. Parts used in repair or replacement. Original paint, tires, hoses and misc. Some parts may have been replaced. No or minimal modifications ie: exhaust, non stock radio etc.

It's when you start talking restoration is where I have a hard time explaining. Is it restored to original specifications using only NOS parts and will it rate more than 95 points with the judging standards?

Most of the Restorations are done to the owners specifications and they include parts from other year vehicles. They may have the original type radio, but is it the specific year radio? The tires are from a different manufacturer and they are mounted on rims that have been powder coated etc.

There are few on this board that can afford a Concourse truck, either restored or a true Survivor. And from what I have seen inn the last few years, there are a number of trucks that are being sold at the B/J Auctions that are what they say they are.

I once found a 1954 Chrysler New Yorker with under eleven thousand miles on it. It was original down to the spare tire. It had been stored for over forty years in a garage. The problem was that the garage roof had collapsed and was sitting on the cars roof, the windows were partially opened and the mildew had destroyed the interior. It was probably one of the lowest miles New Yorker around, but it was only good for parts or an expensive restoration project.

Jay Leno found a 1930 Deusenburg in New York, it had been stored in this commercial garage since 1931. Unfortunately he has to restore it because of the way it had been stored.

Like others say, there are those that take this too seriously and spend $$$ on making sure that each replacement bolt was exactly as it was from the factory, they even try and match the numbers on the headlight lenses (Model A Fords) and this wasn't even done in the factory.

My Suburban will look original, but it will be far from it.

With all this talk about "original", I'm surprised no one has brought up the word "correct". That could open up another whole can of worms!
I suppose if you restored it to "original", then everything would be "correct".
But then, are you allowed to use reproduction parts? In my mind, to be completely "original", one should only use NOS parts.
How many hairs do you want to split? Now I know why I don't get too worked up about that kind of nonsense. Get it running, and get it looking halfway decent, and that's good enough for me!
But, if that's your thing, go for it. It's your truck.

I thought I would throw this into the mix. There are "original" vehicles out there. My family is friends with another family whose elder father is a lawyer. He was contacted a number of years ago to dispose of a local farmers belongings. He was hired to clean up catalog, and sell everything. After cleaning up several out buildings, he sold the hay in the barn. Under the hay was a model T ford truck. The story he got was that when the farmer became successful he was pressured to buy one of those new fangled skunk wagons. So he did. He drove it a while, and didn't like the smell, the way it handled, and just about everythig else about the truck. So he drove it into the barn and parked it. Never to be moved for 6 or 7 decades. When he sold the truck it had 73 original mikes on the odometer, and the original tires on it. They rolled it out of the barn with out a completly flat tire on it. I cannot vouch for the story, it was just something related to me while talking about old cars.

Thanks for all of the responses. I was/am conflicted with keeping the truck as, lets just say stock, as possible. I don't think I'd have much enjoyment driving that way. Most of my driving would be in town and as a every day cruiser. That thing would be a pain to drive in stop and go town traffic. I would like to restore it in some fashion or other, but what the end product configuration would be, I'm still not sure. I think I'll keep it in the dually configuration but am researching the P30 front and rear axle swap at a minimum. Maybe even the cummins 4TB diesel too. I don't know though.
I know I'll catch a lot of flak for that heavy of a modification, but the exterior would still look mostly stockish. I figured if it wasn't stock or original then what would it matter how much it was modified. I don't want to sell it because it has sentimental value.
Here's the truck, as some may have seen it before.
Fatweed's truck
My dad is/was "fatweed" and that's the good 'ol 54 1 ton that is now in my hands. Dad passed away this fall from cancer and he was glad that he found the truck a good place to call home before someone pushed out into the hedge row to rot. He said he didn't really care what I did with it, but I know he liked it just the way it was.

I have heard many stories over the years. I remember a Mopar guy that had a seven and a half mile Hemi Cuda body. The story was that the car was given to a factory sponsored drag race team strictly for the driveline. Another story was a 69 Dodge Daytona that a dealer ordered, had the foresight to spot as a future collectable, never even did the dealer pre-delivery inspection, and just packed away in a spare room for 30 years. Do I believe the stories? Not really but again, one person's word against another. They make great stories real or not. A friend of my dad's has an unrestored 59 Chevy that belonged to his aunt and uncle. It was stashed away for years, has original paint and he took the funky bubble plastic seat covers off of it that were so popular back then to protect original interior. The cars do exist to one form or another. If you found a time capsule car or truck that had been parked and untouched, truth is, it would most likely be un driveable at this point. Make yourself happy with your Grandfathert's truck, tell your kids stories about him and his truck, they will pass it down and alter the stories a bit, and it will give many people great joy for generations to come.

Another thought, went to the ATHS show in Hutchinson KS this year. They had a building with several GM sponsored restorations. The GM Heritage division or something like that. While they were all very nice looking, It was amazing to hear "people in the know" that could pick apart tons of details, incorrect parts, and reproduction parts that did not live up to the original standards. My point on this one is, "If the original manufacturer doesn't have the resources to find and restore one to as close to perfection as possible, how tough could it be for the un-sponsored enthusiast?"

In my book, enjoyable, and driveable far exceeds original.

Trailer them, or drive them, but most of all enjoy them.

John

Anyone remember the time capsule new '57 Plymouth Belvedere last year. They had Boyd Coddington pull it out of the vault in the ground. Wasn't much left of it, but it was all original!

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=121306
http://telstarlogistics.typepad.com/telstarlogistics/2007/06/well_now_its_of.html
http://www.flickr.com/photos/batesline/sets/72157600369994474/

I would go complete 6B driveline from a Dodge pickup. While the 4B may be neat, and you can get up to about 170hp from it, it still shakes like a dog passing a peach pit. If you plan on doing a diesel conversion in the future, I would wait for the LDD V8 to come out in the 2010 Dodge 1/2 ton trucks. 4400RPM and up to 425hp from a 5 liter light duty diesel (Automotive)

Scott

That would sure be nice but I would have to sell a few of my organs on the black market in order to afford something like that. I wonder why a while back diesel fuel was cheaper than gasoline, but now it's quite the opposite?