The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Engine Shop Shorten steering shaft and column

I"m sort, fat with long arms. I don't fit behind the steering wheel of my 54 6100 comfortably. I'm considering cutting about six inches out of the steering column and shaft. Have any of you out there done this? Is it prqctical? What do I need to be careful of? Thanks Redcoat :p

No big deal, but some work.
If you have a 3 on the tree you also have to shorten the shift rod.

I did a conversion toa later Saginaw box on the 41 and connected both, the Saginaw shaft and the shortened stering shaft with a sleeve.

[img]http://www.thesavoy.de/assets/images/complete.jpg[/img]

You also may give Buffalo Enterprices a call, he always got a cure for those kind a things.

25625 Dahl Road, Arlington, WA, 98223
(360) 652-7684

Frank

The column from a 58-59 is two or three inches shorter, iirc. Problem is finding one.

Fred - the 57-59 columns are shorter than the 55/6, but I'd expect the steering boxes to be different than the AD, so it's still a cut job - as Stovebold says, it's not too big a deal to cut your original, just pick a spot, cut out as much as you want, re-weld shaft and jacket perfectly straight, change shift lever to suit and hope it still clears the dash ok, you won't bang yer kneees on the wheel using the pedals, or skin yer knuckles on the gauge bezels - note that the wheel will be repositioned downward more than forward

hmmm now that I picture it, seems it oughta be easier to change the steering wheel or the seat ..... or lose some weight

buddy of mine here cut the shaft and jacket off a TF and replaced it w/ the shaft and jacket from a 67 to get the auto shift on the column and the later, smaller dia wheel - worked fine, but the next guy took it out and threw it away cuz his mechanic told him welding the steering gear was illegal!

Bill

If welding on a steering shaft isn't illegal, it should be. It's slightly safer to do a sleeve and rivet coupling, or something similar, but I've seen some real disasters on the dirt track from welded steering worm shafts. If a part from a later-model steering column with the double-D-shaped tube could be fabricated, that would be the best possible fix. Trusting a simple butt weld with steering duties is a little bit foolhardy.
Jerry

Shortening the steering shaft will also lower the wheel,might be too close to your legs to get in and out of the truck easily.
Welded steering shafts are no problem if you V the ends to get good weld penetration and .There isn't really much twisting force on the shaft if you think about it you apply what,maybe 25 lbs maxiumum rotating effort nine inches from the shaft on these old trucks? Did you ever steer a vehicle with a Vice Grips when the wheel was removed? The real load is on the steering linkage due to the gearing of the steering box.
I welded the shaft on my 37 many years ago,it ain't broke yet

i am a proffensional welder. done it for more than 20 yrs. i've got more certifications than i can remember. i trust my welds & i'd still rather not depend on a welded steering shaft. if it's done at all it should be done by a proffessional & then stress relieved ( heated to high temp & then cooled slowly to relieve stress). after something is welded you have dissimilar metals connected togther with different amounts of hardness. these places act as stress points. good place for a crack to form even if the weld penetration is 100%. especially on something like a shaft.
if you're an amatuer welder DON'T DO THIS!!!
robert.

I would want to V the ends of the joint good and add a sleeve over it. Split the sleeve and weld the ends and the split. I usually tig weld everything, steering shaft or not. If the shaft has to slide through a bushing, in some cases the bushing might have to go on first before welding the sleeve on. Done right, it would work just fine. Done poorly, things could get ugly fast on the road!

I remember reading about a Formula 1 driver (I think his name was Arton Senna) dying because his welded steering shaft broke while he was going through a turn at 190 mph. He had the crew cut and weld the shaft to make the car more comfortable for him. He hit the wall; then a piece of the suspension went through his body and killed him.

Now I don't think any of us will ever be going 190 mph in our trucks--unless we drive off of the Grand Canyon --but I still think it would be better to get a tilt column and adjust it for your comfort, even if it does cost a lot more money.

BlueChev, that's my point, exactly! I, too am certified to weld just about anything but the crack of dawn. Betting your life on a single weld in a steering component is irresponsible. If you don't care about your own life, have a little consideration for those of us who have to share the road with you!
Jerry

Hot Rod,if you are a certified welder,you know welding a lightly loaded steering shaft is not inviting danger.Vehicles have thousands of welds,some very highly stressed and often very rusty.
That Formula driver was killed by a broken steering shaft,and 1000 times as many crashed when some other suspension or steering component broke or a tire blew or a rod came through the block spraying oil on the tires then the oil caught fire from the hot exhaust,the car hit the wall,a wheel cam off,flew into the stands beheading 3 young Chrisitan misionaries while they preached to the drunken crowd.
Driving down the freeway at 70 mph in an old drum braked vehicle is far more dangerous than the suspension modifications done by "hot rodders",bad brakes,limp shocks,dirty windshields,wheelstanding punks on crotch rockets,drunken and drugged driver,sleepy truck drivers,senile old ladies,drivers playing with Remco Pocket Pussys,all these things cause accidents,it's a dangerous place on the road,50,000 die every year from the above causes.How many were killed by some backyard hack like me welding his steering shaft?
I going out right now,gonna drive my drum braked 51 truck at 70 mph and talk on the cell phone while adjusting the radio,cool,here comes a family minivan,ok shaft,BREAK NOW!!

couldn't have said it better Tony!

Bill

Tony, if you and your arrogance survive long enough to see a tenth of the gory wrecks I've had to recover, maybe you'll develop the maturity to appreciate my point of view. The one that really got my attention was a picture, though, not an on-the-scene observation. A broken weld on a steering shaft in 1956 put my friend into the inside fence of a converted trotter track at the Nashville, Tennessee state fairgrounds. The top rail of the fence was two 2X4 boards nailed together. They penetrated his chest, and went 10 feet out of the rear window of a 1933 Ford 3-window coupe.

For a 10-year-old boy, that was a very disturbing sight, even as a front-page picture of the Nashville Tennesseean newspaper!

Now, do you want to make some more smarta$$ comments?
:mad: :mad: :mad:
Jerry

tony & red58, please warn me 1st when your out on the road so i don't have to be out there with you. joking about safety & steering shaft breakage isn't funny. it's immature & pathetic.
robert.

awww comeon guy's!! lighten up!!!!
a properly welded steering worm shaft isn't any more likely to break than all the hokey car front clips so many folks put under these trucks using HomeDepot welders and seat of the pants engineering, not to mention all the other rear axle, frame, suspension, and brake mods that are regularly discussed here - I can tell you that home welded frames ARE illegal, and immensely more apt to be a safety problem if for no other reason than the truck will usually be way over powered [like that 33 Ford no doubt was], and the folks drivin them will be feelin they've got a super safe "updated" truck they can go 80 in

the biggest 'safety issue' in the scene you paint HRL, is runnin a rod on a track w/ a 2x4 guard rail, and if safety is your primary concern, why be advising young folks on how to hop up vehicles? isn't it young folks who account for the majority of fatal accidents? did you get into racing because it's "safe"?

the guy who rebuilt the steering I mentioned is at least as qualified a welder as any of you welders here, and has been doing this work for 45 years, as well as having a shop that's a licensed inspection station - there's safe ways of doing things and there's the way the person who'd ask the kinda question that started this thread [no offense Redcoat] might do it - you'll notice I didn't actually recommend he do it, but said it was possible, and other changes might be preferable, and that's far from pathetic, which I'd say is more applicable to the "professional" welders responses here, Robert

Bill

Hot Rod,proper welds don't break ,especially if you really consider the situation like I said previously.The steering column shaft on these old trucks is 3/4 inch low tech mild steel.Put a torque wrench on the steering wheel nut like I did and observe the reading when turning the wrench while parked,that would be my 37 Chevy pu with radial tires.The torque won't break a 3/8 common bolt.V groving the shaft joint,the weld overlapping onto the shaft,it wouldn't break if the load was 3 times what I measured.
Your reference to me endangering the lives of other motorists was the first smart [censored] remark.10 year olds have nothing to do with my welded steering shaft.Me arrogant? sometimes,I spent a lifetime in big construction,often working at heights that make guys puke,my life dependent on a single fastner welded in the wind on a rainy day by a iron worker who had a fight with his girlfriend the night before.This has nothing to do with steering shafts,but it makes me sound more important.
And with reference to "Scotty" from Startrek who just died......"Coptin,Coptin,she can't take much morrrre of this abuse,The Dylithium convertors are overheating,and the steerin shaft weld has broken.

The end of the steering coupler on my 64 was orignally only swedged to keep it in place. When I cut it down for power steering, I re-swedged it the best I could, then welded both upper & lower with a Millermatic 175. Never thought about it again until this thread. Brian

I thought I would try to give Redcoat another type of answer. The steering wheel was a little too close for me in my 57 stepside. So I bought a 15" wood Grant steering wheel. It gave me a few more inches, which made a BIG difference in comfort. The smaller wheel requires a little more effort, but it's not so bad.

Hey thanks for all the help! I've got an extra shaft, so maybe I'll try it out to see how it fits. If welding is such a risk how about all those rag joints? How can a rag join be better than a weld? You got to be kidding! Redcoat

Actually, the only time I've ever seen a steering column fail on the road was due to a broken rag joint on a Ford PU. A friend of mine was driving his daily driver and was turning off the interstate onto an offramp when the rag joint let go and he slowly coasted to a stop without using the brakes too hard in case they would pull it one way or another. Steering wheel would spin circles in his hands. This was a factory stock truck, not hotrodded or modified in any way. To tell you the truth, if it had been on one of his "hobby" trucks I think he would've noticed the rag joint failing way before it gave out. His daily driver doesn't get the maintainence or attention the old trucks do.

I wouldn't feel comfortable welding on a steering arm or pitman arm even if they are forged steel, but a steering column shaft or tie rod that has been properly shortened and reinforced by a competent welder wouldn't bother me. The steering and pitman arms receive too much leverage when the truck hits a bump or curb for my tastes.

If you hotrodders are worried about modified front end parts, you surely aren't using any of the aftermarket kits and parts out there, are you? Much of the FatMan's stuff scares me to death, especially the dropped spindles and steering arms for early Mopar cars. Most of the Mustang II crossmembers made(except Heidt's) give me the creeps too. Monoleafs make me wonder what happens when the 1 leaf breaks. Half the disc brakes and master cylinder mounting kits on the market look like they were trying to conserve on steel when they made them, the other half is pretty good. I guess you get what you pay for, if something seems cheap, there may be a reason.

If you don't feel comfortable with your welding abilities, you shouldn't tackle chassis work, or hire the welding part of the job out. And for sure don't use a 1956 welder like HRLincoln mentioned, there are much better welders made for these jobs nowdays.

Did anyone see the Boyd Coddington show that was about the Rat Rod build competion between Boyd and half of his shop? The magazine editor that was following along covering the roadtrip in his own hotrod lost his steering. It wasn't a weld that failed, it was a Borgensen joint that came apart. Supposedly, this was the correct, high dollar way to build your steering links. I think that was the first time that I've actually seen a vehicle loose it's steering and I've never heard of or seen a weld break causing an accident.
Just my 2 cents and I'm not getting into a [censored] match, just an observance,
Scott

There was a posting, quite a while back about an AD steering box where the worm section fractured and failed. I would really like to know more about that one.

Redcoat - The reason rag joints are used is vibration. The steering parts usually fail because of fatigue caused by the vibration. That's also the reason welding these parts is not recommended. Any time you make a weld you are creating a whole bunch of minute cracks. In most cases the cracks will never cause problems.

If you mention welding to an engineer that does nothing but fatigue analysis, you will get a new definition of the word NO.

Why not contact bordgeson, they have all kind of u joints and connectors if you tell them what you want to do they will advise you on the the best and safest way to do it ,old navy 51.........

hello redcoat. i am a welder too! if i welded your shaft back together,you would probably never have a problem with it, but i am not in phoenix right now, so move your seat back a few inches.

I think one of the first responses seemed the most practical and easiest. Have the seat back thinned out a couple of inches. See if that doesn't give you a comfort level first before the metal surgery.

I have taken out the seat back and replaced it with a piece of 3/4 plywood. That gives me just the right driving position but it's terribly uncomfortable. I drive it every day. I have to haul about a 1000 gals. of water for our household use every day. It's 6 miles down hill to the stand pipe and 6 miles up hill to the house. The last mile is a dirt road that really bumpy. I'm getting to old to put up with that stuff. Maybe I could just cut the shaft in the middle and put in a rag joint. Redcoat

Redcoat,
At the Syr Nationals this year I parked next to a man with a 54 Chevy 1/2 ton who cut down his orig chevy steering wheel so his stomach could fit behind the wheel. He found a smaller outer wheel he liked, cut up the orig steering wheel, rewelded, epoxied and painted. Real nice, looks stock til you realize its smaller. He had the orig solid front axel however had put in the needle bearings in the front end. Steered nice he said.

If you weld the shaft AND add the rag joint it should be pretty safe.

Rag joints are used to correct for minor misalignment between the steering box and column when they are SEPERATE units, with the box mounted to the frame and the column mounted to the body. The steering box and column in Redcoat's '54 are 1 piece. That is, the steering column is a 1-piece shaft from the steering wheel all the way down to the worm gear. If you cut the column and seperate the box and column to add a rag joint for some reason, you will need to add a seal at the top of the box to keep the dirt and water out, a bushing at the bottom of the column to support the steering shaft at that end, and mount the steering column much stronger than it is now. Right now the steering column gets most of it's support from being an integral part of the steering box and only needs a clamp at the dashboard to support it at that end. You can take the body off an AD truck and still steer the chassis with the box and column only bolted to the frame. Once you cut the column and shaft away from the steering box and seperate them, the column will need to be mounted better to have any strength.

Redcoat,
You said you had a spare shaft? Stop by a few machine shops in your area and ask how much to re-cut the spline. That way there's no welding or any other fabricating involved.

Curt B.

There you go Curt. Finally someone's thinking!

I have worked on steetsweepers in the past & they had controls on both sides from the manufacturer. On the Rt. side was the add-on st. wheel, it had about a 18" column & then a 90 deg. gearbox & came out with a shaft that went across the cab into a similar gearbox set into the Lt. column which then went down to the actual frame mounted truck box. This whole monkey-motion rig was assembled using ROLL-PINS thru holes drilled in the shafts.
This was on the big 5-ton FMC & Elgin built units. I remember well because I used to have to remove this mess to work in the dog-house area between the two seats.
Never, ever heard of a steering breakage. Everything else, including frames & spring hangers, but never a roll-pin. They had bus size st.wheels & took a gorilla to turn, but never broke. Doug

Hey 52pu,
What do your mean about needle bearings in the front end? Sounds interesting.

Needle bearings instead of kingpin bushings.

Hey! I'm not just some old fat slob. I'm an old power lifter, I've been lifting wights since '56. Think of a 5'10 250lb long armed line backer who rung a lot of bells, who squats 600 lbs and benches 320. I'm just an old jock, high school football coach still pushin weights with the kids. My nearest neighbor down the road is a machinist with all the tools in his garage. I'll talk to him about cuttin splines in the shaft. Thanks Redcoat

If the splines prove a challenge for him you could see what he says about running a square or hex broach thru the wheel and milling flats on the shaft to match. I looked at the seat,wheel, and column on my 52 and thought that guy must have awful skinny legs to make that modification work though. I think you'll definitely need a smaller wheel. Good luck.

Curt B.

www.flamingriver.com offers a spring loaded adjustable shaft. not cheap but worth a look. ron

Sounds like taking out the box and shaft and shortening it at the top and then re-splining it to mount the steering wheel is by far the best idea!

How about cutting the shaft near the box and putting in a rag joint attached to a tilt column with the original steering wheel?

Just had to throw in my "steering failure" story. My brother was driving a 55 2nd series on the farm (circa 1970) when the wheel went slack in his hands.

A tie rod fell off, and the old bolt drifted gently into the bar ditch, did a slow roll and landed wheels down. Thank goodness my brother held on and did not get tossed out.

Low speed + a tough old 'bolt + guardian angels working overtime = no one hurt and the 'bolt returned to service.