The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area The Tool Chest Double flare tools, what works best on stainless?

I have been having trouble finding a good flare tool for making double flares on stainless brake lines.

To start with (a few years ago now) I got an OTC Stinger brand flare kit, http://www.amazon.com/OTC-Stinger-Double-Flaring-Tool/dp/B000HTNO6G
and it worked fine for about 4 or 6 double flares in 3/16" stainless tube, then it lost its grip and would flare no more.
I forget who I bought it from, but they sold it to me understanding I was going to use it for stainless, and they said it would. They (or was it OTC?) sent me a replacement set at no cost, and it sits on my shelf unopened, as I don't expect it to work for long with stainless.

My next step was to buy a flare tool kit from the same folks I bought the coil of stainless line from, Inline Tube (won't deal with them again for several reasons unrelated to this discussion). They sold me Imperial kit number 93-FB as seen here http://www.imperial-tools.com/tools/flaring_swagingtools/flaringtools_03.html Imperial does not say it will work with stainless, Inline Tube says it will....
I have used it for a few dozen double flares in both 3/16" and 1/4", it works reasonably well. Although it is very hard to use, takes lots of force, all I can do to hold on to it and turn the handle. The "cone" rotated freely when new, as it should, it is now locked to the screw. I have split two of the 3/16" buttons, one lasted a while, one only lasted for one flare and busted on the next, I have one spare left. I understand they break because I use to much force, but I only use the force necessary to form the first step of the double flare in stainless, which happens to be more than the tool is designed for.

So, I have been looking for the past year or two for the best flare tool I can buy, as I have had it with this mickey mouse stuff.

I have a Kent more J-2185 set, like shown in my AD shop manual, but mine is for 37 degree. This style should work if I ever find the dies or clamp blocks, or a whole set in 45 degree. One significant down side is it needs about 3" of straight tube to make a flare, so flaring close to a bend is not possible like you can with the other types of flare tools.

Some of the ones I have looked at, and my thoughts:

Imperial production unit
http://www.imperial-tools.com/tools/flaring_swagingtools/flaringtools_07.html
Looks good, but not sold for use with stainless, and would be a several hundred dollar mistake to find out exactly why they don't say you can use it with stainless.

This one from Eastwood
http://www.eastwoodco.com/jump.jsp?itemID=18935&itemType=PRODUCT
They say it will work with stainless, and it is an "imported tool". I am hesitant to try it, would like to hear from someone who has used it first. If it were made in the US I would probably go ahead and try it..

The hydraulic type sold by many different folks, including Snap-On
http://www.eastwoodco.com/jump.jsp?itemID=14790&itemType=PRODUCT
I don't think they mention stainless, and I don't know any one who has one. I do think a less complete set can be bought if all you need is one type of flare.

I would like to know what kind of flare tool the folks like Classic Tube http://www.classictube.com/ use, as they do this every day all day, and can't afford to put up with poor quality tools, or ones not intended for stainless. I have to order some stuff from them tomorrow, I'll ask then.

Anyone have a flare tool they really like for use on stainless?

Grigg

I've never had to do any stainless, but I swear by my Snap-On hydraulic flareing tool. According to what I was told, it will amke any flare on any kind of tube.

Then I'll call my snap-on guy and see if he has one on the truck, and have a few scraps of stainless handy to try this week..
I sure hope it works good on stainless.

Grigg

Grigg, check your PM
Denny Graham
Sandwich, IL

I'd like to try a snap on..

I bought a Rigid and it is a POS..it is tossed in the back of my box

Best I can tell the hydraulic flare tool Snap-On sells is made by these folks.
http://www.mastercool.com/pages/flaring_tools.html
A kit like these can be found on ebay, not sure if the ebay ones are the same, or imported?

Only reason to buy from snap-on would be faster service, and possibly they warranty some parts of it if they break or wear out?

Denny suggested this one http://www.fedhillusa.com/
I remember reading about it as being a really good one, definitely worth a try.

Grigg

I read Dennys posting on the one he used. It looks like a very well made tool, and looks to give very nice flares.

Yikes!! For the price, it should make the flares and go fetch you a cold drink when it is done...

Grigg, to help the "heads/dies" work a little better I always put a drop of oil on them so they turn a little easier. Then I blow the lines out good before installing. Just a thought that might help the "twisting" part.

Yep, I have been oiling the moving parts and the tube end.

Just tried to finish the brake lines on my truck, using the Imperial 93-FB, could not get even one double flare in 1/4" stainless, just pushed through the clamp bar.

It did make several nice 3/16" double flares in stainless, and on the second to last one it split my last button :mad:
I have officially had it with the imperial tool, up till now I figured I would put up with it for the rest of this job, but it just won't do it.

Now I am ready to buy an approximately $300 flaring tool, as I don't think anything less will last, so far they have not.

There are a few Mastercool hydraulic sets on ebay with a $285 buy it now. Those sets look identical to the Snap-On set that list for $433. http://buy1.snapon.com/catalog/item...6&store=snapon-store&dir=catalog

The Fedhill one is $330 and currently out of stock according to the web site. It looks similar (but not the same) to the Eastwood one, and probably better made.

I am leaning toward the Fedhill one, as Denny likes it, and has tried it with stainless tube.
The Mastercool hydraulic one may be good, but so far I don't know how well it works on stainless.

Grigg

nice to see those also do ISO bubble flares. That's handy.

Man those are pricey. But a good flaring tool is super handy.

Greg, sent a PM to ya

Did some research last night and today.

I got as far as deciding that the Mastercool hydraulic set http://www.mastercool.com/pages/flaring_tools.html and the Fedhill tool http://www.fedhillusa.com/ are the two very best choices for making perfect double flares in most any material, including stainless steel.

I called my Snap-On salesman and left a message, inquiring about the TF700, what he has to say about it, and if it is made by someone else, for what reasons should I buy it from him and not the original manufacturer. Have not talked to him yet, but I will see him Friday.

Called Mastercool asking about their part number 71475, the most complete kit they offer. Can be found new on ebay for about $285 delivered, Mastercool's list price is over $600. They don't sell to individuals, but did provide me with some semi local distributors. I asked if they sold to Snap-On, and yes they do, same tool. Also asked if it would flare stainless steel brake lines, and yes it will, but only soft stainless steel, which is the only kind sold for use as brake lines, no problem there.

Then I called Tim at Fedhill, and asked about his flaring tool and stainless steel brake tubing. He said it works great on stainless. I explained that his product had been recommended to me, that I also thought it looked like a great tool, and had my choices narrowed down to his and the hydraulic one from Mastercool. I asked his thoughts and opinions, understanding he would recommend his own. He said that the Mastercool hydraulic one was second in line to his, down sides to it being it occasionally makes a poor flare, while his always makes good ones. The Mastercool one will also wear out the hydraulic part, blow a seal, and supposedly it can not be repaired, but a new pump is needed. several of his customers have upgraded to his tool after wearing out several Mastercool units, and are quite happy. The Fedhill flare tool also makes flares faster than the Mastercool unit.

So, I ordered a new Fedhill flare tool, currently on back order for about 2 weeks. He is sending me a loaner (it has already shipped) so I can finish this job, and I will exchange it for the new one when it gets here.

I'll post once I try it, but I expect to be very pleased.

Grigg

Cool. Very cool of them to send you a loaner to fiish the job.

Grigg, there is no doubt in my mind that you could make one of those Fedhill flaring tools.

Thanks Cosmo,
A few years ago when I was getting stuff together to do my first stainless brake line job I considered the Fedhill flare tool, and at the time it was lots of money, and I also decided I could make one if I could see one in person....

Fast forward to now, It is still a fair amount of money, but I now understand and appreciate the value, which I did not back then. Being frustrated with several different lesser tools helped me see the light. Last night the thought crossed my mind about making one again, and I decided that for the money, if it does what it is supposed to, then it is worth it, and the time it would take me to make one is more valuable than the money they are asking for it.

Grigg

You don't need to double flare stainless, only steel lines.
Stainless is too soft to double flare and will only slit. Just do a single flare at what ever angle you need.
We single flared my dads 32 and everything worked, no leaks.

Thanks, but I will still be double flaring my stainless brake lines.

Stainless is harder, not softer, than regular steel, and that is why it is somewhat more difficult to bend and flare. I have yet to have a stainless line split.

I have single flared my 3/8" fuel lines, but they are JIC/AN/37 degree flares, and I am using the proper fittings, tube nuts, and tube sleeves, these tube sleeves provide additional support to a single flared line to reduce the likelihood of cracking the flare off.

I think to be legal brake lines need to be double flared when used with 45 degree fittings. And even if I legally don't have to, I am more comfortable doing it that way, and they are my brakes.

Thanks,
Grigg

Yes, a single flare will work but they have more of a tendency to split at the tube end where the metal is stretched or thinned out and the double flare fittings are designed to be used with the extra thickness. In most cases the flare nuts will bottom out before the single layer of tubing is compresses. With a double flare the edge of the bell is supported by the metal that is being folded in at the end of the tube. The end of the tube remains the same size and actually gets compressed a tad smaller than it was thus eliminating the splitting. Another advantage is that the double flare complies to the shape of the seat better when it is made up (the first time).

A mistake that a lot of people make when forming a double flare is to compress it too much. This is difficult to control with most of the flaring tools unless there is a stop built into the tool. You want a little give in the fold so that it will conform to the seat when you tightened it down. Something to remember when using SS lines is that the flare is already somewhat harder because of the forming operation than a mild steel flare. It’s much harder than the brass seat so once you compress the folds in the double flare in all probability the portion that is now yielding is the cone in the brass fitting.

As distasteful as some might find this, these types of joints (metal-to-metal) are really designed to be a one-time shot. This is why there are so many complaints of leaks after the joint is broken and then you try to reseal it. If they were made to take apart and reassemble then they would use metal seats with soft rubber or plastic seals. I might mention that there are metal-to-metal joints that are made for reassembly but they use very soft generally expensive materials for the seal. One exception to this is the banjo fittings that use a soft copper seal that can be annealed and reused several times.

I’ll try to give you an analogy I once heard on the subject of which is harder; it’s sort of like asking, "Which tastes better, Chinese food or Japanese food?" It’s just too general of a subject to be answered directly. Stainless is not necessarily harder or softer than steel but it does get tougher once you start to form it. Austenitic stainless steel, usually type 304 is what is generally used for SS brake lines and it tends to work harden more than mild steel. This is where the problem comes in with forming the double flare. If you take the same size samples of SS and mild steel and bend them it takes more force to bend the SS especially as it begins to work harden. Mild steel and SS generally start out in the same Brinell scale at around 120-140 HB but the SS will test much higher after moderate cold working.
Denny Graham
Sandwich, IL

Got the loaner Fedhill flare tool today, and tried it a few times on 3/16 and 1/4 stainless line, works easy, makes decent flares, and does not appear to be destroying itself like the lesser flare tools I have used on stainless did.

I'll know more in a few days after I have used it some more, but so far so good.

Grigg

Taint tryin’ to criticize ya Grigg, but if the flares are only decent as you say with the Fedhill tool, then it might be in the way your prepping the end.
I burned up probably 20 or 30 feet of tubing, making a flare, cutting off the sample and re-flaring it when I first got the tool just to verify that it was going to do what was promised. I’ve made literally hundreds of flares in both steel and SS 3/16, 1/4, 5/16 and have not had one single failure or marginal flare. Each one looked as good as the pre-flared tubing from the auto parts stores.
Rather than crush the tubing with a tubing cutter, I cut my tubes with a fine hacksaw blade. I then touch and rotate the end of the tube to square it up on a bench grinder that I have an 8"x1” 3m deburring wheel mounted on. I lightly de-burr the inside corner with an Exacto knife to remove any sharp corners.
Denny Graham
Sandwich, IL

No, not a criticism, that is exactly what I did. I did not prep them perfectly, and that is why I did not say any more.
For just a quick try with minimal prep, it does a decent job on the few scraps I had laying around.
I expect it will do a great job once I have time to play with it, and take more care in the prep.

I'll give it a real try sometime this week and report back.

Grigg

I used the Imperial Flare-Pro I got from McMaster-Carr for around $230. I was able to double-flare the stainless tube I got from Inline Tube with no problems. (Inline says their tubing is annealed, so it's soft enough to work.)

Grigg, Ive been watching this post for awhile because Im getting ready to do some double flaring myself, Im also installing stainless brake lines on my 51 and I wish afford the Fedhill flare tool but I cant, so I got the Imperial kit number 93-FB you first mentioned then I prepped the ends just like Denny said :
"Rather than crush the tubing with a tubing cutter, I cut my tubes with a fine hacksaw blade. I then touch and rotate the end of the tube to square it up on a bench grinder. I lightly de-burr the inside corner with an Exacto knife to remove any sharp corners."
I then cleaned it up a bit with a hand file and oiled all the moving parts as described earlier.

And I don't know if I just lucked out or what... but they turned out awesome ! "Each one looked as good as the pre-flared tubing from the auto parts stores.
Im very.. very.. pleased

Thanks everyone for the advice
Todd

Glad it worked for you Todd. The Imperial tool is not a bad tool, I just found it won't repeatedly flare stainless, worked great for a while, then not so great, then not at all.

I just shipped the loaner Fedhill flare tool back, and my new one should pass it in the mail. I still have some brake lines to make, and some 5/16" stainless fuel lines for a friend, I'll report back when I am done.

On another note, the folks at Fedhill sell a copper nickle alloy brake tubing that will never rust, and is reasonably soft, I have some 3/16" that they sent as a sample with the flare tool, and I then ordered 12' of 1/4" tube. I'll try the new stuff on some really tricky short lines I need to make, I think it will be really nice to work with. A few years ago I thought the is copper nickle stuff was really expensive, but I don't think so any more, not sure if the price dropped, the price of stainless went up, or if I just realize it's value?

Grigg

Thanks Grigg, It sounds like you'll be using the Fedhill flare tool a lot, all I needed the Imperial tool was for a few double flares that I was doing for my truck and that would probably be it.

Im a HVAC Tech so I can always use a good flaring block but Ive never came across anything that needed a double flare until now, In fact Ive never made one until now

This weekend on "Trucks" they was using one of the hydraulic flaring sets... HOW COOL IS THAT ! Man... If i could get enough use out of one of those I would get one in a minute ! But I'll probably never have a need for one because my truck is done
(is the copper nickle alloy brake tubing chrome ?)

Keep us posted on the outcome

Thanks again
Todd

I have used the hydraulic type tool with great success. I deburr the inside of the tubing after cutting with a regular tubing cutter by using a countersink. works great and gives perfect double flares.

Andy

I finished making the last few 1/4" brake lines on my truck, used the FedHill flare tool to do it.

The flares came out just perfect, and no problems making the flare in stainless, but there is no way around it, it takes a lot of force to form the stainless.

I made two short lines, less than 6", out of the copper/nickel alloy brake line sold by FedHill, it flares very easy, and bends even easier. It was much less work to make those two lines in the alloy than in stainless. I was able to bend it about to shape with my tube bender, and just by hand tweak it to fit. If I had done the lines in stainless it would have to be just about perfect when I was done with the bender, as it is hard to tweak a short stainless line by hand.

The copper/nickel alloy brake line looks just like what it is, not quite as red as copper, and not as silver as nickel, just in between. It can be polished, but will resemble copper more than stainless.

I will be using more of this line in the future, as it is easy to work, and just as trouble free as stainless. For long simple lines I'll probably still use stainless, as the cost is less.

One downside to using the FedHill flare tool is the length required to clamp the line in the tool is longer than a traditional type flare tool (this is why it works so well when flaring difficult materials though), and as a result a bend can't be right near the end of the line. With 1/4" line a standard tube nut, and my tight radius 1/4" tube bender I can get 1.75" from end of line to outside of a 90+ degree bend using the FedHill flare tool. With my traditional type bender I can get significantly less distance.
To overcome this small problem I need to buy a pair of tube bending pliers like these http://cgi.ebay.com/Brake-Line-Bend...dZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1638Q2em118Q2el1247 They allow bends even tighter to the end than what I could get away with with the old type flare tool.

I went ahead and bought the dies and clamp blocks to double flare 5/16" and 3/8" tube, but have not tried them yet, I imagine that to do stainless the wall thickness needs to be pretty thin. I'll do some 5/16" stainless in a few weeks, I'll know then. And I have some thin wall 3/8" I can try too.

Grigg