The Stovebolt Site Forums The Parking Lot Big Bolts 6-lug Budd wheels

Grigg and I are working on a wheels tech tip and we'd like to know when GM started using the 6 lug pattern. Did it debut with the Task Force trucks?

Also, what year were tubeless tires first available -- anyone know?

Man, you think the engine color debate makes your head hurt -- try researching tires and wheels...


John

Started sometime, back in the 1920's, for Heavy Duty GMC's. I think it was 1956 for Chevrolet.

56 sounds right to me for 6 lug stud centered Budd wheels on Chevy, 2 ton then. Guessing that after 59 the same 6 lug pattern was then also used on 1.5 tons?

I think that 56 is also the first year for the optional tubeless tire.

Would be great to have an answer form someone who knows these details exactly, I am no expert on these "new" trucks.

Grigg

Hy guys, I really don't want to appear picky here, but if we're going to talk wheels, lets be specific. As Spanky said the six bolt pattern has been used by GM for years, the early six bolt wheels were Motor wheels, not Budd wheels. Motor wheels are hub piloted, Budds are stud piloted, and they use an inner and outer nut system for dual wheel retention, while Motor wheels use only one nut with a swiveling washer in all wheel positions. My Canadian parts books say that 56B was the first year/portion that six bolt Budds were offered on Chevy trucks. 56B was also the first year/portion that tubeless tires were offered on Chevy trucks, at least in Canada, hope that helps.

You guys are correct...1956 was the first year Chevrolet offered 22.5" tubeless tires. It was also the first year for the (6) 3/4" - 16 bolt on 8-3/4" circle Bud Wheels. These wheels were available in many widths and offsets for the 5000 Series and up trucks.

I don't know when or if Chevrolet ever put these 6 lug wheels on the 4000 Series 1-1/2 ton trucks, but if they did it was after 1959.

As a side note, 1957 was the first year Chevrolet used the Cast Spoked Hub which used the Dayton type wheel.


Mike B

Bruce -- We're working on that But look at any late model bread van or duallie pickup (even most semi trucks anymore) -- those are Budd wheels. Remember, of course, that Budd was a specific maker whose name has become synonymous with that wheel design.

Mike B -- Figured you'd be along to straighten us out. So did the 10-lug pattern die in '56 (with '55 being the last year for it?) So all 1.5 and 2-tons were (6) 3/4" - 16 bolt on 8-3/4" circle after that? Until when?

And when the Dayton wheels debuted in '57, on what trucks? 2-tons and up, or bigger than 2-ton?

3B -- Picky is great! If explaining differences between Budd and Motor wheels would help explain the differences between stud and hub piloted (and the corresponding differences in lug nuts and bolts) it will only make our tech tip better -- if you'd like to expand your explanation, that would be superb!

What we are trying to do is to capture knowledge on what the stock wheels and tires were for the Big Bolts and then work up a conversion chart for more modern tubeless wheels and tires as a guide for folks who want to upgrade their rubber.

We're also trying to cut through the hysteria over multi-piece wheels and explain the truth (i.e., locking ring & 3-piece wheels okay. 2-piece Center split not okay).

Many thanks for the help, guys! Keep it coming!

Mike -- my spider sense is telling me that you and I may be making our own pilgrimage to Jackson's before this is over ...

Regards,
John

I know that in 56 Chevy changed to tubeless on all trucks but proved to be ahead of the times and changed back in 60 both my 56 6100 and 57 6400 came factory with 6 on 8 3/4 X 22.5 wheels and 8.00X22.5 tires. These wheels are very popular on heavy duty delivery vans and military vehicles today.

PS I am not sure about the bolt pattern just the 22.5 tubeless thing. Oh and Grigg it wasn't an option that was the only way you could get them and people hated them, people are funny when it comes to change!!!!

No, the 10 lugs on 7.25" did not die in 56, appears as they were used until about 59.
Then revived in the late 70's or early 80's and used till 2005.

Grigg

Well my 64 has a slightly bigger 10 lug pattern than the earlier AD trucks at 8 3/4"s I think a 6 1/4 center and it was back to tubes then.

I've tried to stay out of this, because wheels, can get very difficult, & confusing. There were many different 20, & 22.5 inch wheels available for these G.M. Big bolts. For example: There were 3 piece, 20 X 5.0, 10 lug wheels, with 5 hand holes, & there were 2 piece, 20 X 5.0, wheels, with 8 hand holes. 20 X 6.0, 3 piece, 10 lug, 5 HH, & 20 X 6.0, 2 piece, 10 lug, 5 HH wheels. There was indeed a 2 piece, 10 lug, 20 X 6.0, 5 HH(GM prt. no. 2395276)wheel available, as far as 1970, from what I can tell. There was also a 2 piece, 6 lug, 20 X 6.5 wheel, 6HH(GM prt. no. 2395848)available, from 1960, at least to 1970. Daytons were first available on Heavy Duty Chevy Trucks, in 1957, but were available on Heavy Duty GMC's, as far back as the 1930's

Hey Guys;
My 1940 Chevy has 6 bolt stud piloted wheels 7.50 x 20. (one piece lock ring)manufactures were Firestone and Motorwheel. Of course this is on my Miltary 1 1/2 ton.


John

Yes, but not related to this 6 lug Budd question. Your wheels are also currently available in 22.5" tubeless, Accuride part number 28160.

Grigg

And that is the bolt pattern in question right, stud piloted, and same 8.75" bolt circle diameter? I think it is..

If so then it just got even more confusing.

Grigg

The 6 Bolt double nut bolt pattern probably started in 1956. Ford used it and some fleets wanted a standardized wheel for all of their trucks. It was made by Budd and had left hand threads on the left side of the truck and right hand threads on the right side.

Heavier trucks used the same nuts, but with a 10 stud configuration. It was used up until six or seven years ago. It relied on the stud and a rounded nut with recesses in the wheels to center the wheel on the hub. It was pretty much the standard on heavy trucks, but it required sixty pieces on each single axle truck and one hundred on a tandem axle and you couldn't interchange the parts from one side to the other. Took more time to change tires and wheels, particularly the inner dual.

About ten years ago, the hub piloted wheel was introduced and it is now what is used almost exclusively in the industry. It cut the parts down to 40 on a single axle truck and 60 on a tandem axle, and all of the parts were right hand threads, so you wouldn't cross thread them if you weren't careful. The hub piloting was better and the whole thing weighed less.

Dayton wheels were really a brand of cast spoke wheels with demountable rims. They were popular east of the Mississippi and you couldn't sell a truck west of the Mississippi if it had them. They took a really expert tire guy to get them on straight and in the west, we didn't have them. As they were heavier, they began to die out a number of years ago and you almost never see them in the west and, at least with General Motors, they're not even available anymore.

The 22.5 tubeless tires came out in 1956, but they weren't well received. Farmers said that they went flat from thorns to easily compared to tube tires. If I remember correctly, we began to see tube type tire begin to lose favor in the early 1990's and you can't get them anymore. My opinion is that the tires were greatly improved and the fact that they were lighter had an impact also.

Don't forget that General Motors offered a five and ten stud hub piloted front wheel, five studs on 5,000 Lb. Axles and 10 studs on 7,000 Lb. Axles and ten studs on the rear throughout most of this time. They were peculiar to General Motors, but weren't used on front axles larger than 7,000 Lb and rear axles larger than 17,000 Lb.

Hope that this sheds some light on the subject.

Lots of great info Steve and well written.

Thanks!

Mike B

Grigg,

Aren't John's military wheels a whole different can of worms, though?

Steve -- Yeah, thanks for that info. It corroborates the anecdotal info we've collected so far. That's interesting info about the Daytons. I tend to respectfullt disagree about them needing an expert tire guy to put them on right. I'm no expert and when I had my '73 IH Loadstar 1800 dump truck, I did it many times myself -- I learned to jack the truck up just enough that the tire could rotate freely. I then set an empty coffee can (or similar item) on the ground next to the tire. I then spun the tire slowly, noting where it rotated closer to the can, and where it rotated away. By tightening a lug here and loosening a lug there as I rotated the tire, I never had a problem getting it on straight.

I think Westerners are a bunch of sissy boys who couldn't handle a manly wheel and tire set up ....

Just kidding!

Regards,
John

John M,
I thought John G's wheels were the same bolt circle? Where is he, and does he have a tape measure???
I do remember them being true Budd wheels with the inner and outer nuts.

Steve,
Good info, although to be picky, hub piloted wheels have been around a very long time, much more than 10 years.
Could it be that big trucks started moving away form traditional stud-centered Budd wheels about then, and started favoring the hub-centered wheels that are so popular today?

Also, about Dayton wheels, they too seem to be not so popular any more, although all the shipping container trailers I see still run them, even some obviously new trailers.
I was told they still use the Dayton's because they are stronger, they will stand up better than a Budd wheel to a container being lowered to fast, the Dayton's will take the shock of a hard landing better.

Grigg

I didn't see any mention on torques, but my service manual for 56 GMC says 450 ft-lbs. Don't that sound like fun?
I was lucky when cleaning out the truck, I found a lug wrench under the seat. I just have to wonder how it was used.

The Medium, & Heavy Duty Chevy, & GMC Truck Parts Catalogs(group no. 5.803), for the years in question, should have most all this information.

Thanks Spanky. Can I borrow yours? Or can you scan that part for us? It would be a big help.


And about the switch to tubeless, I am getting conflicting reports -- one source, who has access to a vast library of old truck literature, is telling me GM went tubeless in '55, with tubed tires being optional (and preferred). You guys are telling me '56. Can somebody cite a specific reference for me to settle it?

We'll get this sorted out. But this rabbit hole goes pretty deep!

Thanks,

John

I hate to get picky to, but when you say GM, do you mean GMC or Chevrolet? Big differences in wheels between the two, or as Ive found out when I got my GMC COE...

Grigg'
I will measure the bolt circle the next time I am in the shop.

John

I just got out my 1957 Chevrolet Master Parts Catalog and it confirms that the 22.5" wheels and the 6 hole Budd Mounting system both showed up on the 56 Chevrolet 2 Ton. The 1 1/2 Ton continued with the 10 hole with 5 Studs on the front.

Also, Grigg brought forth the idea that hub piloted wheels were older than he felt I implied. I agree, but we didn't call them that. The largest axle they were available on was a 7,000 Lb. and the 17,000 Lb. rear axle.

Finally, with regard to the cast spoke or Dayton Wheels, there are a lot of areas in the west that can be 75 or 100 miles away from help and we didn't have cell phones in that day. I can't imagine changing a Dayton Wheel in a blizzard at -15 degrees.

I was a Chevrolet dealer in about 1981 or 1982 and a factory guy called me and asked it I could take a C65 truck that a dealer who was a friend of mine had ordered, but who had run out of credit. He was a pretty good truck guy and I took it. When it came in, it had Budds on the rear and Daytons on the front. I had to order another truck with the opposite mountings to make 2 trucks that had the same wheels. It took a long time to sell the truck with Daytons.

In about 1988 or 89, I ordered a school bus chassis for a customer and mistakenly ordered it with Daytons. We didn't catch it until the bus body was mounted and in Denver. The problem was that School Bus Regulations in Colorado absolutely outlawed the Dayton wheels. I had sold my dealership by then and put off telling my boss what I had done. The next day, I got a call from the bus body guy. A school district in Nebraska had totalled out a school bus and it was their only bus. They needed on right now. I got in the bus and took off for Nebraska and got there about 7:30 PM, met with the school board and delivered the bus that night. Probably the luckiest thing that ever happened to me. We ordered another one for the first customer and came home in a car. I guess I didn't mention that Daytons were legal in Nebraska. Also. I never told the boss, either.

Now are there any more smart remarks about Daytons? I guess you can understand my antipathy.

John,

Chevrolet first offered 22.5" tubeless tires on 1956 model trucks which were offered for sale in late 1955. I have tons of info confirming this, such as...1956 Service Bulletins, 1956 Service Selector book, 1956 Specification book, Parts Books and a 1955 Second Series Specification book showing only 20" tube type as being offered.

Trust me on this one

Mike B

Mike -- A ha! That explains my confusion over the '55-'56 time frame. Thanks! And am I correct in stating that the 22.5" tubeless were standard, with the tubed ones being optional (and preferred, as it turned out)?

It's not that I don't trust you ... but are your documents notarized & certified true???


Steve Ley -- Sorry to be such a chowder brain, but I'm not sure I understand your comment on the 5-lug versus 10-lug ratings:

Front axles on AD trucks came either as 5-lug, 5,000 lb axles or 10-lug, 7,000 lb axles? I don't think I've ever seen a 10-lug front axle on an AD truck (not disputing you, just a comment that a 10-lug front axle must be a rarity).

Rear axles were 10 lugs, but could range in rated weight from 7,000 to 17,000 lbs?

Is that what you meant? I want to be sure I get it right so that the article is accurate and clear on that part.

Thanks,
John

John as far as I can tell for the AD chevy trucks, the axles had 5 lugs and either had (a) a 5 bolt cap covering the bearing nut for the standard axle or (b) a 6 bolt cap for the heavy duty front axle. This is the information covered in the Chevrolet Master Parts book.

John,

You are correct...tubeless tires were "standard" on all 1956 Chevrolet trucks, tube type tires were optional.

Trust me on this one...

Mike B

Sorry if I wasn't clear. The front axles using the 8.75" bolt circle were available in both 5,000 Lb. and 7,000 Lb. capacities. The 5,000 Lb. Axle had 5 studs and the 7,000 Lb had 10 studs. The 7,000 Lb. Axle was optional on the C60 and standard on the C70 trucks.

The rear axles were 15,000 Lb. and 17,000 Lb. and the 17,000 Lb. Axle was optional on the C60 and standard on the C70. In the early 70's, I believe there were several years when the C50 was rated the same as the old C60 and the C60 was rated as the old C70. This ended when they figured out that users thought that the C50 was a lighter truck than the Ford F600.

We also had some problems with the fact that Ford and International used a 17,500 Lb. Axle, while we had only a 17,000 Axle. There were times that a literal interpretation of a spec could force us to quote an 18,500 Lb. Axle and become uncompetitive.

The hubs were what were different and there were different hubs with the 5 and 6 and 10 studs for the front axles with the different ratings and for the rear hubs with the different ratings.

Hope this helps to make sense.

Steve,

I think it would help a lot if you could tell us what year truck you're quoting specs for. I think John's asking about AD trucks from 47-55 and your talking about 1970's (I think???).

Mike B

You're right Mike. What I'm referring to is the fact that, while the six bolt Budd mounting started in 1956, it carried forward until quite recently. I'll get references tomorrow for the years that we're talking about.

A local linen company here has some trucks that where purchased new last year that use these wheels in 22.5s.and Anthony uses them on the front of their sweeper trucks also in 22.5 but these are a solid disk no hand holes just one small hole for the valvestem.

Grant, by "these wheels" do you mean 22.5" stud piloted 6 lug Budd wheels?
Around here lots of UPS trucks run them with 9R22.5 tires.

Grigg

Yes Grigg that is what I mean the millitary uses a lot of them too but mostly in tube type