The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Paint and Body Shop Does it really take that long?

I haven't posted for a while, that nasty thing called work ties me up. I've got a question about body shops. Are they all super slow? I've got a 62 lwb fleetside with the original 261 and 4 spd. I redid everything from the ground up. It's a rolling, running chassis since 2/05. Dissassembly, cleaning, replacing & rebuilding, all the business to get to where I am took 2 years. The body shop has had just my cab for 4 months. Now, the guy is good and comes recommended, he is an older guy and does work with little or no bondo. His sidekick is 50 or so and a fine painter. The cab is in excellent shape w/ zero rust. They replaced a rocker at my request because it was crushed pretty bad. It's in primer except for the firewall now and the inside is finished. I say it lacks a couple of days, but they are always on something else. I anticipate spending $6k on all the bits and pieces for prep, body work, prime and paint. Other quotes I got were always much higher. Is this the price for them taking their time? Is this normal? I don't really want to go someplace else for fear of the frying pan to the fire effect, but I am really frustrated. At this rate, I'll be retired before it's finished! Comments or opinions on this would be greatly appreciated. I need some perspective. Thanks, Bill.

I set my retirement date as my completion date, so I'm still on schedule. Just kidding....

Others will chime in but from what I here the real money is in fast turn-around insurance (replacment) parts and restorations usually go to the end of the line. If they are good be patient and hang in there.

My .02 Buddy

you got it buddy, the bread and butter is in the two to five thousand dollar insurance jobs.restos are so time consuming and costly 95% of all resto jobs lose money, unless that is what you specialize in,unless you have a endless supply of cash this is how it is!be patient it will be worth it!

Bill:
Be patient it will all come around. My truck was in the body shop 2 1/2 years. I knew this guy was slow to start with and he broke his knee in the middle of the project which put it off 6 months, so stay with it you'll be glad you did.

George

yes, it does take that long when you deal w/ a shop like that [older dudes w/ real good reps working much cheaper than average] - the way they work is as said, pump the insurance jobs thru for the cash flow, use your resto work as a filler to take up the slack, and take pleasure in being the artists they really are - you get twice the time and energy on your job at half the price - sometimes they can put a half hour on yours while the paint cures on a job that's payin the freight, and yours is a freebie!

just stop by regular to check the progress w/o buggin them too much, and they won't put it waaay on the back burner - 4 months for a complete *excellent* job isn't long at all

Bill

It's nice see I can get the same quick replies here. Thanks for confirming what I feared: I knew going in that at time and materials,they would get to me when they could. On top of that, after the cab was in the shop I heard that the shop was notorious for being slow. And that's 4 months JUST for the cab, by the way... the rest of the truck will be handed over in bare metal with an acid coat. I just feel like my money spends like everyone else's so give me a few hours every week and I'd be outta there. It does look good though for as far as they've gone. I'll go with you guys and stay cool. Thanks, Bill.

The trouble I found, was that no one wanted to paint my truck, or even work on it for that matter. I have done all the work on it so far except for reseating the valves after I unseized it. I have decided to paint it myself now, it will be a learning expirience and I will be able to take pride in it (I hope ). Most body shops said they wouldn't do it, others said that they would have it for months, so that convinced me. Yeah, they are the professionals and do great work, time is to be expected. Good luck.

You need to hound them. I got so frustrated with the high cost and crappy work at body shops that I learned how to do it myself. Not everybody has the time though.

Just go in there a few times a week and nicely pester them about getting somewhere on your project. If they think there is no rush to finish it, they will use your cab for fill work which rarely happens with guys with a good reputation.
Scott

Confessions of a body shop owner.
By Brian Martin

“Anybody know of a good body shop in (enter your city name here)?”, “How do I get my body shop to work on my car?”, “My car is being held for ransom!”, or just simply “Body shop Blues”. I’m sure you have all seen topics similar to these posted. Gentlemen, my name is MARTINSR and I was one of those dirty rotten bastards that would keep your car ten times longer than I promised.

For the guy not doing his own body work or at least not all of it, he is at the mercy of the body shop. It is not a nice position to be in. In fact, it can go down as one of the low points in your life. I have seen horror stories that would make your hair stand on end. A long time customer of mine (he owned about 60 cars and usually had a few in shops around the area at all times) had a car that was held as evidence in a murder. Yep, it had blood splattered on it when one of the shops owners killed the other with a baseball bat!

The following is my generalization of restoration shops that I have owned, seen or worked at. There are exceptions to the rule. Please don’t beat me up if I have rolled your shop into the mix when you are an exception. But, if you do see yourself, I suggest you get down to your neighborhood junior college and take a course or two in business. One of the great myths is that we each think our business is so unique, we can’t learn from a “regular” business class. Well after much instruction and exposure to the business side of things I can tell you, business is BUSINESS. Whether you are running a liquor store, a cat house, or a body shop, they are all exactly the same. Sales are SALES, period.

So, we can agree a body shop is a business, being a good body man does not make you a good businessman. Restoration shops are usually owned by good body men, not good businessmen. It is very hard to make money doing restoration work, it is very easy to make money doing regular collision work. The business man makes his money doing collision work and tells all the customers with restoration work to go to Joe’s Body shop down the street, he does the restorations. Joe loves doing what he is doing, but seldom makes much money. He is an artist, a true master at his craft. Joe sees things as what they can “become”, not what they “are”. When Joe sees a car he doesn’t see the time it will take to make it the show winner he knows it will be, he only sees it as the show winner. I really don’t believe he means to lie to you when he says it will be done in a month, he is looking through rose colored glasses, his vision is altered. Like a woman forgets the pain of giving birth, so does Joe when he gazes upon the beautiful car he has carried for nine months (or longer). And when the next rust bucket rolls in, he has forgotten about the hundreds of hours needed, he only sees a luscious rose garden.

Like I said, few make a living at restoration or hot rod work. The biggies that you have heard of like Roy Brizio or Boyd Coddington all make money with other ventures, not the rod shop. The first time I visited Brizios shop this was very apparent. The rod shop is about 5000 square feet sitting in the middle of a 50,000 square foot building. The rest of the building is Brizios manufacturing business. It is all non auto related by the way. The rod shop is a hobby, I don’t doubt for a second he makes money, but it is a hobby none the less.

So when you go looking for a shop to do your car you have to remember this, you are most likely going to be dealing with an artist. If you think the business end of it is going to go smooth, think again. If you build yourself up and believe everything, you are in for a BIG let down. If you set yourself up for less than that you will be much better off. I suggest getting ready for MUCH, MUCH less and then you will be happy when it only takes five months instead of the ten you got ready for. If he said one month and that is what you are planning, by the time five months rolls around you are ready to kill someone.

These are HUGE generalizations but I have found a few signs that may help you in picking out a shop. If nothing else they will help you understand who you are dealing with.

1. If there is more than one car sitting in the shop covered with dust, this may be a bad sign. If you have been around body shops much you know that dust build up is like the rings in a tree, you can tell by the layers and colors how many YEARS it has been sitting. If there is a car that is being used for storage of misc. boxes and things, bad sign. My brother used to joke that I should bolt a vise on the fender of the car, at least I could get some use out of it! Coyly ask “Cool car, is that yours?” if he says “Naw, it’s a customers”, BAD SIGN. If there are ten stalls in the shop and six have dust covered cars in them, RUN. I shouldn’t have to tell you this one, but if there are guys hanging around with beers in their hands, RUN.


2. How many stalls does he have? I have found that the real restoration/rod shops seem to have only room to have three or four cars at a time. If you only had room to work on three cars, you are going to be darn certain they get out so you can have room for the next. One of the most successful custom shops I have ever seen was a little four stall shop in Pittsburgh California. It is the famous (well at least on the west coast) DeRosa and son Customs. Frank has been around since the fifties making show winning cars. He and his son Frank Jr. do the same today and do it FAST. They run a neat, little and clean shop. If you have seen the 2001 DuPont calendar they did the “Cadster”. It was only in the shop for a few weeks. By the way, it doesn’t have DuPont primers on it like the calendar says, Martin Senour primer was used.

3. Does he look at your car like they do at the McPaint shops, you know, all jobs all colors the same price? If he doesn’t take a good long look at the car taking notes, he has no clue what he is doing. He is looking at the car with those rose colored glasses. Every single panel should be examined and noted for the amount of hours needed. If he just looks over the car without doing this he is surely going to be WAY off. If he is way off on how much he is charging you, what incentive does he have to work on it?


So let’s say you have a shop you would like to bring it to, you really need to case the joint. Turn into a stalker and keep an eye on the shop. You know for months that you are going to need a body shop. Watch the shops for months. Drive by during business hours and see if they are actually open. Many of these guys (remember they are not good businessmen) take their open sign as sort of a guide line. If it says 8:00 to 5:00 it is more like 9:15 to 2:00 then 4:25 to 7:00, they can’t get your car done like that. See if any cars leave. If you go by there and see the same cars sitting there and many little jobs going in and out, BAD SIGN. I have to tell you, those little money making collision jobs are dang hard to turn away. If I had a million hour job sitting there and it was the 28th of the month I am going to set it aside for the $800.00 job I can do in two days to pay the rent.

If they don’t allow you to walk around and check the place out, be wary. Look at the paint dept, does he have a booth? Is there junk and open cans all over? Is there many different brands of paint? This is usually not a good sign, he buys anything he can get his hands on. This is many times the sign of a “junior chemist”, they guy that mixes products and doesn’t follow tech sheets.

If you have decided that this is the shop you want to go to, help the poor guy. You “suggest” to him how you want to go about the money part. This is the ONLY way you should do it believe me. Don’t EVER give him a deposit and leave the car (at least not more than a tiny amount of the estimate, say 5%). This is darn near a guarantee that your car will be sitting for weeks or MONTHS while he uses that money to buy parts for a high profit collision job or simply pay a long standing bill. Which then leaves your car sitting there with no incentive to work on it.

Here is what you need to do. Tell him that you want to do only ONE of the things on your car, at a time. You want to get a price for all of them maybe so you know what it is headed, but do only one at a time. You will pay him for one step at a time. Not because you don’t trust him, but because YOU are bad with money and that YOU don’t want to leave him hanging after the car is done with no money to pick it up.

This way it is more like he is in control and made the decision. Then you negotiate the time it will take for each step. Let’s say you have patch panels to do on the front fenders. You agree that he will have them done at the end of the week, and that they will cost $200.00. He has something to work for, he knows he will get the money and he actually does it. You go see him on Friday see the work done and give him the $200.00. Then you pick another thing to do. Just as if you were doing these things at home, break them down into bite sized pieces so he can swallow them. If you go in there and find that he hasn’t done it or he has done poor work, you can then say “I am sorry to yank your chain, I don’t have any more money, I just lost my job” and take the car, no body owes a thing. If he does not want to do this, you really need to start rethinking your choice of a shop. Either this or variation of this should be fine with him. If it is not, something is wrong.

If he really wanted to make money he would be doing this. The first restoration job I ever did where I really felt I made money was done just this way. It was a little ’58 Bug eye Sprite. I had decided that something had to be done or I would fall into the same trap as before with a car sitting forever. One of the first shops I ever worked at was a full on restoration shop. It broke the rule and was pretty big, with four full time employees. Every car had a time card assigned to it. When you worked on the car, you punched in. Then each month (these were HUGE frame off restorations on 30’s and 40’s vintage Fords) the owner would receive a bill with the times worked. If they couldn’t pay, the car left, period. The guy made money and I finally got smart (after about 12 years in business) and followed his lead. I put a sign on this Bug Eye and would post the hours I spent on it. I told the guy to come by each week. Now, when the guy came in and saw only two hours were spent, he was not very happy. That was a heck of an incentive for me right there I will tell you that! It worked great, I actually got paid for every minute I worked, unlike most restoration projects. And he actually got the car back in close to what I said. It was still late, but not ten times as late as I had done before.

Another thing I highly recommend is to take plenty of photos of the car, really detailed photos. When you drop the car off leave him a copy of them. Letting him know you have a copy. Not threatening like “I am doing this so I can prove you lied to me” more like “I can’t wait to see how different it is and you can have these before shots to show future customers”. Which is true, it is just not the only reason you are doing it. If he is doing a full on restoration for you, I HIGHLY recommend parts like chrome and interior be taken home after he removes them so they don’t get stolen or damaged. You need to have a very close relationship with the shop, if these visits make the guy edgy, you really need to find another shop.

If you have the attitude that you are genuinely interested in how this work is done, not how he will do YOUR car, but just in general. You will find that he will be much more likely to “show off” his talents than if you go in there like an untrusting customer.

Along with these photos you want a VERY detailed work order. Run like the wind if he has no work order. Still run if he has a work order that says “fix dents and rust” as the repairs being done. RUN, I say. You need to have a fully detailed work order, not for legal reasons (wink, wink) but for your own records to show the wife where all the money went. The “wife” is a great way to get things done. You need to come look to see what is done because the wife wants to see. Bring her in there, she has an excuse, she knows nothing right? So you bring her in to see what magic this guy is doing to your car so she can understand why it costs so much. Bring a friend when you drop the car off, be sure he hears everything that is said. Let him or her help you make the decision on leaving it there. Sometimes YOU too can be looking through rose colored glasses. If someone else says they have a bad feeling, LISTEN to them.

There are few things that can compare with returning to a shop to find the place is locked tight and the mail is piling up on the floor where the carrier has dropped it through the slot. I have seen it, it really happens. The good news is it is rare, just take your time and find a shop where you feel comfortable.

Yeah, but he started it by trying to spray enamel over a clear coat without sanding first. What could I do?

THANKS MATINSR, i am close to the point i have to decide about a shop and your post is very helpful. i already have run into the put aside attitude when i take my truck in for work. they do other jobs and let mine set. being semi-retired i have time to haunt them. i talked to a guy at work who works part-time at a body shop and he already has warned me that if they take my truck it will be second choice to work on if they get an insurance job. thanks again for taking time to post.my other problem i don,t want to spend thousands of dollar for paint on a truck that i wiil use as a truck. but i know shops depend on theitr jobs for advertising and don't want to do a cheap job. ron

Was going to suggest you do a search for MARTINSR but see he has chimed in already. Brian is a no BS guy and will tell it like it is. He has posted several articles here that everyone doing a resto should read and heed. Thanks again Brian for the help you gave during my body/paint trials.

MARTINSR,
Priceless. Excellent advice, both from a business AND interpersonal skills perspective. Thank you once again for your thoughtful advice and willingness to share it.

When I started my truck restoration, an older, more experienced restorer told me to determine the exact cost of the restoration and the length of time it would take (one year/$10K) and then multiply my figures times 3. He was very close--almost 3 years, $27K. I originally thought the time projection could possibly be correct, but as I was planning to do alot of the work myself, the cost seemed out of line. Surprise, surprise.

MARTINSR speaks the truth, I have a buddy(known him 30 yrs) who is a bodyman & paints, does great work if he will ever do anything. Takes years to get him to do anything if he does it at all,I guess its the paint fumes. Most folks get tired of waiting & take their stuff back home & find someone else. He cries all the time about "not having enough money to pay bills"(single income fam) yet won't do what he is trained & can do. Brian

great post MARTINSR, Lots of info for us amateurs, But we are getting to expect that from you. I've been getting nuggets of truth for a few years. Thank you, Thank you bud

Well I guess I hit a gold mine of opinions on this topic. Fortunately, I took most of MARTINSR's advice before I was able to read it. I would have really felt bad otherwise. I am paying as I go for work done and checking in once or twice a week. I check the bill tally every month and have even used the wife as a motivator to get done... "My wife is all over me about how that truck is still not done!" He has only 4 stalls and my cab is the only thing with dust on it!! The shop is generally a mess but with only two guys, there's not much time for clean up. I have even offered my mechanic services or grunt work for free!! He's too proud though, I think. I'm going to keep on keepin on. Once the cab gets back I can stay busy for a month while he starts taking his time with the fenders and doors. Thanks again for the support

It's just like Click and Clack say:
LOOK for a boat parked in the back parking lot of the shop and you're goin'a PAY and waits your turn, then pay again.
4 years it took for a guy to paint my motorcycle headlight shells. and he still charged me full rate. AMF to him and i found a great painter now.

I used MARTINSRs advice in my Introduction to Psychology course I was teaching this morning. My kids didn't really know why they were required to take a psychology course when they were majoring in business.

I talked about the points brought up in MARTINSRs post. Brian, your story and advice made everything crystal clear to them. Thanks again for sharing it - my kids got a lot out of it. There is no substitute for experience!

If yer gunna own an old truck you had better learn how to do basic body / paint work. Running back to the body shop every time you get a scratch, dent or rust pokes through is Hell. Forget about it. Besides, you get great satisfaction telling people that you did the work yourself. I had one guy ask me who painted my truck. I said, "I did". He said, "how did you get it so smooth". The answer to that is rather complex, but I did tell him that I did ALL the work, on my front lawn. Talk about added degree of difficulty.... So gitcherself a good compressor and gun and start werkin!

Thanks for the kind words everyone. I know this article has saved a few guys from the heartache that a bad shop can cause. As long as it has done that, I am happy. But to learn that it was used in a school room, that is overwhelming. Kimberly, thank you so much for the honor.

Brian

Brian, great practical advice! And you're right, business IS business, no matter what business you're in. The fact of the matter is that many (if not most) craftsmen and craftswomen who are outstanding at their craft are not good business people. You've illustrated that nicely.

Peg/John: I'd suggest that Brian's article go into Tech Tips for future reference!

I second Larry's motion.