The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Engine Shop Project 1959 235 Rebuild

LOL! Good one Jerry! I need a few laughs too every now and then. Looks like I got my first one! Bahahahahaha!

Added more erroneous information pertaining to how to drill the front timing plate for installation in a 47-55 truck. It being a 58-62 engine, there is no holes in the front plate. By the end of the day tomorrow, these numbers will be more exact. I should have the crank removed by then too. Gotta half arss everything just to keep in character! LOL! You guys are killing me!

WTF, why is it that being hard headed and foolish makes one an expert. I'm all for pinching a penny but in this hobby spending money on good tools goes a long way, and its easier than waiting for parts to show up.
So Deve, kudos for trying to help the diyers, but slow down and get it right before you climb on that soap box.

Waiting for the You Tube video

Don, not sure what you are referring to? The text has been changed to recommend the proper puller so that's not it. Please be more specific.

The problem with these articles is, you only have one chance to get it right. Did you want me to demonstrate the proper one on another engine somewhere to get the pictures right too?

Added a pretty detailed segment on how to drill those holes properly in the timing plate. Thanks to Dave for the exacting dimensions.

Also removed the crank and pistons. You just use a very large hammer to beat those pistons out right?

Few questions come to mind, maybe I could learn here instead of bugging the engine shop?

1) Does the cam retainer come with the new camshaft, or do I have to remove the old cam gear to get the old retainer out?

2) I have never done this part before.. I always leave the freeze plugs in. This time I thought it would be better to remove them and all plugs, etc myself. My plan to remove them is to drill a hole in them, slide hammer them out. Yes, no? Are there any journal caps, or anything I shouldn't take off?

Thanks!
http://devestechnet.com/Home/Project1959235

Deve, you'll have to pull the timing gear to get the retainer off.(I think its called a thrust plate) For the freeze plugs, since you have the engine out, I always use a flat blade screwdriver on the edge of the freeze plugs and hit it with a hammer. That will "flip" the freeze plug and then use the screwdriver to pop it out.

Edit: You probably know this but when you knock the pistons out with that big hammer, cut you a piece of rubber hose and slide on the rod cap bolts to keep the bolts from scarring the crankshaft....and be sure to number the rods and rod caps as well as main bearing caps. You da man.

EDIT #2...when you put the cam retainer back on be sure to add a small drop of lock-tire on those two bolts. They can, and will, sometimes work loose, even with lock star washers, and when they back out into the timing gear things go "pop". Just trying to help.

It's been a few years, so I wasn't sure about the cam retainer. Probably because the engine shop just did it for me. Same for the freeze plugs. If you use the orientation I did (set the engine on its head) the rods can't drop and scar the cylinders. Something to say for sure. Thanks!

Great advice!

I was joking about the big hammer. A ridge reamer is essential in doing this right. LOL!

Good on the correct puller. Pass on the drill bit, way to easy to drill through the water jacket by mistake. Read the factory service manual, then refine things for guys how to do things.

Added everything I can add about tearing down and preparing for the machine shop. I asked the questions, added the answers, and its all ready to be boxed up and sent off. The machine shop wants me to bring it all up next Monday. After looking at the valves, OMG!! It will be interesting to see if the head is any good, let alone the engine block. Looking forward to those answers for sure!

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Added rebuilding the Distributor. The Carb is next, but I am not sure how to proceed because MY focus is 47-55 but the engines we use are 54-62 so the Rochesters are different. I am thinking about making an adapter that goes on top of the newer style carb that allows us to put the older style air filters on them. What do you guys think?

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Were the drive gears the same on all five distributors?

What are the years of the 5 distributors?

Thanx Deve.

I have several of these distributors myself that need attention. They seem to build up like piles of skulls outside a conquered medieval city.

I have three of them that are 54-62. The other two are 216 distributors. Dave and Tim can iron this issue out better, but the gears on the two older ones are plated with a yellowish tint. The other three newer ones are tinted black. I have not had the chance to ask Dave since its on his blog about this issue or even read it myself. The problem with using 216 Distributors on a newer 235 is apparently the cam and steel differences between the cam and the gear on the Distributor. Somebody else chime in please! Would be nice to know where to purchase the newer gear?

Anyone having extra plastic pieces (the black phenolic) at the Dizzy's wire, I need 3 sets of them. The long screw and round nut too! Thanks!

Now that I have been able to create a 'HAT' for the newer style Rochester B so that I can use a 47-54 Air Filter Assembly, I am documenting the complete rebuild of the Rochester B carb. Rochester, in all of their wisdom, did not change the designation of their Carbs after 1954. They just changed the way the Air Filter Assembly is mounted and STILL called it a Rochester B.

So, the HAT is documented, and working on the complete rebuild. Takes about a full day at my pace to clean all of the parts properly for rebuilding. It's about a day or two from being done and then I can move on to the next thing. Thats too far in the future for me to determine what it is! LOL!

http://devestechnet.com/Home/Project1959235

Anyone having extra plastic pieces (the black phenolic) at the Dizzy's wire, I need 3 sets of them. The long screw and round nut too! Thanks!

Carb is now completely documented. Please advise if I said anything wrong. Working on Intake and Exhaust next. LOTS wrong there to talk about!

http://devestechnet.com/Home/Project1959235

I added a few navigation aids to improve how to get around the document including a Live Table of Contents and alternate picture links.

Nice job Deve. I'm not even trying to keep up, but am really appreciative that you are taking the time to document the rebuild. I know lots of others will benefit over time.

Question - is it possible to get cylinder ridges out with a hone, or do you have to use the ridge reamer? Can't you just take the pistons out through the bottom when the crank is out and let the machine shop take care of the ridges?

I do not know for sure about taking the pistons out from below. I want to say no because there is something too close, but I could be wrong.

You have to use a ridge reamer but they are pretty cheap. A hone would take forever and you would run the chance of scaring the cylinders or taking too much off. Any auto parts store thats good has them. Good question. I hope someone who knows answers.

With the crank out it is possible to push the pistons and rods out the bottom provided there isn't much cylinder bore distortion from wear and heat. I agree with Deve. Use a ridge reamer.

The other advantage of the Ridge Reamer is Machine Shop time is money. If they have to do it, they will charge you for it. Think of this as a learning experience that will make it easier for you next time.

I have always been taught to take the pistons out from the top and all of the V8's and 6's I have done, I have never even tried to take them out from the bottom. Good question though.

There will be interference between the pistons and the main bearing webs so not all the pistons will come out the bottom unless you're willing to destroy them. 216 pistons will drop down far enough to install new rods from the bottom. 235's won't even expose the wrist pins before they hang up on the main webs. If there's enough ring ridge to keep the pistons from coming out the top you'll need to rebore the block- - - -trust me on this one! More than .005" of cylinder taper wear (which causes ring ridge) is too much to work with a re-ring job. A ridge reamer is cheap insurance if you're planning to reuse the pistons.
Jerry

Allen, you will learn easily how to use that Ridge Reamer.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/oes-27030?seid=srese1&gclid=CNjI3NCHwsQCFZSKaQodNWoAwg

That one is $40. The small bolt expands the reamer to the correct starting size. It only goes in one way. Then, the larger one is used to turn the reamer to strip away the ridge. There is a pad on the blade that scoots around the good part of the cylinder so that you can't go too far, although take it slow so you don't have to worry about it. I haven't looked, but I imagine there are YouTube videos on how that works.

Good luck and remember you aren't in this alone.

Thanks Deve for the link. I'm going to get it. There are lot's of special tools in the shop manual, think some are nice to have and some are required. Now believe the ridge reamer is in the required group. So I don't have to do this one tool at a time, what others on Shop Manual (48-53 version) page 6-46 (engine special tools), 6-80 (carb special tools)and 6-94 (clutch special tools) are required. If it's on your website, just point me in that direction. Thanks again.

You are doing just fine Allen. The clutch alignment tool that works best for me is the front shaft from that vintage transmission. I think Summit sells these shafts in plastic or something cheap. Might see if someone replies here and has a spare. Thats it for the clutch.

Before its over, things I havent mentioned in the article yet are a Piston Ring Compressor so that you can drop your pistons in the cylinders without damage, and a 3/8 drive and 1/2 drive torque wrench. Plastigage and assembly lube is also coming. Anyone else?

The ridge reamer pictured in the link has one little quirk that fooled me the first time I used one like that. Each time it's used for another cylinder, it must be turned CCW to the bottom of its travel. If not, it tops out after a couple of cylinders have been reamed. The cutter head climbs a VERY fine thread as it cuts, and if you don't reset it for each cylinder, it runs out of vertical travel quickly.
Jerry

So some more tools you will need but not expensive depending on where you go to get them..

Piston Ring Compressor
Piston Ring Groove Cleanout Tool (if you are reusing the pistons)
3/8" Drive Torque Wrench
1/2" Drive Torque Wrench

Assembly Lube and Plastigage when you get it back. Ask your machine shop to provide you with the Plastigage so you know its the right one.

When removing the head, remove the bolts in the pattern described in the Shop Manual (not the old truck one, the Engine one) or go here:

http://devestechnet.com/Home/HeadTorque

There will be alot more to the article on how to use Plastigage, how to align the crank/cam gears, static timing, etc as I get to it. My engine shop said the end of the month but I am not holding my breath. He's very busy.

The only clutch tool you need that I know of is the alignment tool. This gets everything lined up so you aren't fighting reinstalling of the transmission. I went to a yard and got the front trans spindle off a junk transmission. I haven't researched it, but I heard somewhere Summit has plastic versions. Worth checking in to.

Added a few things today. Spent the last few days working on the engines sheet metal and misc parts. There are changes under the heading: While the Engine is at the Shop... and added pricing and part numbers in the Parts List just below that, then near the end under: Intake and Exhaust Manifold Assembly to the end, more stuff.

If you guys would please recommend the best tools or versions of a tool to us, we can put that in the text instead of something I looked up real quick. I view this as a StoveBolt effort and do not have all the answers myself, so please chime in.

http://devestechnet.com/Home/Project1959235

You may have an opinion on using the original hardware (nuts and bolts). Or how to prepare the sheet metal different than how I did it. Thanks!

Added the sheet metal final pics, some info on why you need to know what flywheel you have, and more pricing info in the parts list. The parts list is pretty key to helping people understand the cost of a rebuild give or take.

http://devestechnet.com/Home/Project1959235

The pictures from the Motor Machine Shop are trickling in. I am so appreciative of Jim taking the time to take pictures of the steps.

The engine will be using a Points Distributor during its initial breakin, but once I am sure everything is perfect, I am using this engine for testing an intriguing HEI system that uses the stock dizzy. Problem is where to put the module. Since all four hookups are either to the coil or the distributor, I pulled up a chair and just sat there looking at my 261 for awhile and this is what I came up with. Please tell me what you really think. I made it the size it is just in case I decided to Gut a Delco-Remy Regulator Box and mount that over the module. Not sure yet.

The short writeup about it is near the bottom here:
http://devestechnet.com/Home/Project1959235

or here is a pic:

http://devestechnet.com/Images/Restorations/1950B/D50b06091lg.jpg

The entire HEI system discussion is at forums.devestechnet.com in the Think Tank Engine area.

Deve,

Looks good to me!

As a side note, you do know the 261's were not painted Gray, they were Green or Yellow.

Mike B

I know Mike, there were alot of colors for engines, but in 1950, the engine paint was gray for 1/2 ton trucks. Since the one I have is going into a 1950 truck, it gets 1950 paint. I do not have a good handle on all the engine colors. Wish I did.

Here is an old article on 1912-1966 Chevrolet engine paint colors.

Tim, thank you for that info!
Jerry

Yes thanks again Tim, but I wish I knew what they are calling Blue Gray as opposed to Gray. When ordering from Bill Hirsch, who I feel is probably one of the best resources, I get a TAD darker Gray than Duplicolor 7272 Ford Gray. The HEI plate I was just talking about.. the picture shows the difference. The plate is 7272 against the engine which is Bill Hirsch.

Deve,

I have heard about there being 50 shades of grey/gray.

No one knows the shade/shades used on 216 and early 235s; and, the shade/shades used on later 235s.

My belief (not confirm-able and not refutable) is that the darker blue-gray was more commonly used on low-pressure engines and the lighter (Ford-like) gray was more commonly used on the later high-pressure engines (except the green shown for some years' high-pressure Trademaster 235s at the link I posted above).

No one has proof regarding the shades of grey/gray.

Deve, been looking for updates. What up?

I have been purposely leaving the engine shop alone because I know how busy he was when I took it there. I will hopefully get an update early next week. I am very anxious myself. Nothing left to do to prepare for the return! He would get it done much quicker if it was a daily driver, but he knows it's not.

Have you taken yours to the engine shop?

Not yet Deve. All my workbenches are covered with a mud buggy engine that my son's bent a rod in. Had to send the crank off to get a replacement. So I don't have any space to put parts. I did get the little Giant pressure washer pump you recommended in last week and ready to fire up the new HF pressure washer. Bulk kerosene is hard to find down here, and I refuse to pay $18/gallon at HD. So looking for some economical kerosene to load it up with. I jumped the gun, and thought I saw where you engine was back. No worries.

Added a few minor things today including putting together the thermostat housing and adding the vac advance to the distributor.

Waiting ummm patiently for the return of the engine from the shop. He is taking pictures as he goes and he is swamped right now, so I am not bothering him too much. VERY anxious to get it back tho.

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