The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Engine Shop Rebuild or Crate?

I've just started a build and I'm planning to go the hot rod/rat rod direction. My question is whether you guys think it's better to get an engine and have it rebuilt or pick up a crate engine?
-I live in Canada, which is likely to bump the price of a crate up.
-The truck is only going to be an occasional driver.
-I would be getting the engine rebuilt by someone else as I don't have the skills to do it myself.
-I'm not planning to have any crazy amounts of power just something fun to drive that can occasionally make clouds of burnt rubber

Thanks for your advice!

If you buy a crate engine, you won't have anything special. If you have one built, you could have something really special.

you'll spend lots more rebuilding, crate motors are a bargain, and warranted to boot, save the money for other aspects of the build

Bill

Gm makes some nice crates. Cheap also.

With all the information and parts readily available I can't see how a crate motor makes any sense unless you have way more money than time.

The 235/261 formula is pretty much set.. pick the level of performance you want, buy the parts, bolt them on. Not sure what a re builder can do other than charge your for labor that you can provide for free.

I read a few crate motor warranty's and I'm really not impressed. Rousch crate motors will not warranty a motor sent to Canada, and most repairs will require shipment back to them. This seems to be standard in the 2-3 policies I read. Most have a 12mo/12,000 mile warranty (4 months of regular driving or 1 year as a trailer queen? Really?)

Some places wanted a block as a core (at your shipping expense).

I'd pass on a crate motor.... shipping and being in Canada seem to be the biggest hurdles.... I live in the USA and unless I wanted something exotic (like a supercharger) I'd do it myself... and save 50-60% off a crate motor.

farber, you might attend to the original question, for starters he's not looking for a Chevy 6 for his GMC hot/rat rod, and he stated he "doesn't have the skills to do it" himself - you also appear to have no idea that crate engines in Canada are sourced from Canada, including from any local GM dealer or even most FLAPS, not shipped from some USA source ... unless you can get a good core nearly free, and find a builder who's charging 1/2 the going shop rates and not putting any markup on parts he needs to buy, a crate engine will be 1/2-2/3 the price

Bill

has anyone determined what engine he is planning on using? It seems like he might be talking about a small block.

the last small block that i built i had over 1200 in just machine work and parts

Leonard's right. I putting together a mild 350 for my 58 GMC and doing all the labor myself, already pasted the $1200 mark.Larry

He never said what engine config he wanted... I6 or V6/8. So there's that.

OP knows that being in Canada will increase the cost, I agreed. So there's that, also.

I specifically stated that I read the warranty for Roush racing.. so their specific terms would be, well, specific to them. So there's that, too.

The key point, is "Thanks for your advice!" My advice is a crate motor is throwing money away when you don't need to. If you can't bolt a motor together, then you really need to question your ability to make a high performance anything. Yeah, I know, I'm a mean person, but if you want to make a cake, you gotta know how to bake.

I can't imagine not putting my grubby paws over every part of anything I build/own/drive. Its just not MY TRUCK until I have touched, measured, inspected, repaired or replaced every part that needs it. I mean inside differentials, motors, transfer cases, transmissions, doors, wheels, brake lines, generators, you name it.

Again, that's my advice, as the OP asked for.

the real reason I think he might be looking into a V8 is the "occasional clouds of burnt rubber" statement. Which as far as I know isn't generally a characteristic associated with these old engines.

Go to a local GM dealer and price a crate engine.Base your cost from there.You are not in the sticks.Money exchange is not much of a factor,if you buy in Canada.

Jwicker, I would go with a crate engine if I were choosing between getting a shop to rebuild it and the crate. Go to GM, get some prices on their different engines, and go from there. I think you'll find that for an engine with a warranty, their prices are very fair.

I think that he is thinking spot on. A crate motor in his circumstances makes alot of sense. Many of the most successful people in the world have done it by using their head, not being up to their elbows in grease. Just sayin.....

2500 for a 250hp small block is cheap. Their fast burn 383 is a smoking deal and it's 400hp. Even summit and jegs have their own crates for cheap. Turn key ready to cruise.

GM crate engine are warrantied by G.M. dealers, that being said I would advise you talk to the service manager at you local dealer before you purchase to get a feel if they will work w/ you. Some make a fuss over warranty on them esp. if you bought it somewhere else.

I bought a GM Goodwrench engine for my '56 about 7 years ago and have put over 20,000 trouble free miles on it. No need for warranty claims.

I have put in well over a hundred Goodwrench engines & the only failure was a burnt ex. valve on a 292 many years ago. I don't even consider the warranty.
Watch out for imitations. The original "crate" engine was the Target Master parts program from GM. Later the name was changed to Goodwrench. Many companies are wraping wood around a rebuilt engine & calling it a crate engine.
I have built a lot of engines myself but the first thing I do when I get another truck is order a Goodwrench engine for it.

...... I use to have to put my hands onto everything I worked on, built, and way back when I even thought I had to put my hands on every thing my friends built to "help" them.

....then I got older and wiser. Depending on circumstances its just hard to do it all yourself so if you can get hooked up with the right people, the ones that do it EVERY day, you'll come out ahead in the end.
....even the big boys don't do it all. They sub stuff to those that do it EVERY day. Save time, labor and skinned knuckles.

George, I'm with you.

Get a crate, then put old valve covers on it and malook like an older smallblock.

I noticed that you didn't address the OP's statement that he would have someone else do the rebuilding. If you personally found yourself in a situation where you lost use of your 'grubby paws', would you pay a machine shop to build an engine or would you buy a crate engine?

I would recommend a crate engine as well. A few years back I was looking into a new engine for my mustang, and at that time all the big 3 had several editions of their popular engines, Brand new with factory warranty. Assuming of course he is after something other than the old 216/235 era. Does anyone assemble straight 6 crate engines? Imagine this fellas glee when he returns to the forum and sees this lively debate where everyone has made assumptions and even made his decisions for him.

I have gone the route of the FLAPS rebuilt with warranty that wasn't much difference in price than a new GM crate, but at the time a couple hundred bucks saved seemed big and the warranties were similar. I installed it myself with a friend and had my mechanic do the final tuneup and inspection for warranty purposes. 2 years later I am glad I did as a blocked cooling passage in one head finally caused a crack that filled on cylinder with coolant and hydro-locked the engine. The FLAPS don't warranty rebuilds, the re-builder does. It took the threat of going to small claims court by the mechanic to get the FLAPS to force the supplier to honor the warranty. A GM crate is honored by GM and can be installed by any of their certified mechanics, not just the dealerships. That is the route I went on my next engine.
IF you have a good salvage yard close by you may also consider a takeout engine.

Get a crate motor….
For example:

I recently saw a sale at JEGs for a 230 HP 350 for $1300 and change with FREE shipping. Perfect for guys who don't want or can't do the work themselves.

Maybe, Have it sent to a friend at the border …?

At that price ANY warranty is a bonus.
As others have stated you'll have
1200+ in machine/valve train/head work Before you start throwing parts at it.

my 2 cents

mike

I'm not sure if the GM crate warranty up here is different than the US, but in Canada you don't need a certified installer to install a GM crate motor. You can install it yourself as long as you bring it back to them to set the timing, then the warranty is valid.

Wow, thanks a bunch guys. I didn't expect that much of a response so soon hahaha. To try and add a little context and answer some questions I'll add the following:
The reason that I want to stay away from rebuilding an engine myself is that I don't have the knowledge to do it myself. I consider myself pretty could with my hands and a reasonably intelligent person but as part of that I understand my limitations. This would be one of those
I'm not sure what I'd like for an engine yet and am open to some more thoughts on that front as well. I'm definitely looking for more than the stock engine would give me but at the same time I do plan on driving it on the streets so I don't need to go too crazy. That fast burn 383 sounds like a strong candidate.
It sounds like my best option here is a crate. From the sounds of it I "may" be able to get a better deal on a rebuild but unless I happen to find someone doing it on the cheap it'll be comparable to a crate.
My pipe dream is to keep a three speed column shift on the truck just for looks and something a little unique. I'm not sure that I'd be able to find a three speed tranny to handle something like that.
Hollow65 where did you find that 383? www.chevrolet.com?

Once again thanks for your opinions.

Summit racing has 41 options from different suppliers. The 425hp 383 is $4800.00

It would be cool to keep a straight 6... (I love the looks of them and its my personal preference) Here's a few crate L6's

http://www.summitracing.com/search/...s/part-type/crate-engines/engine-type/l6

Go to GM Performance Parts, and look through the choices there. Once you find ones you like, copy down the part numbers and go to your GM dealer and they can give you cost and availability details.

You'll most likely want to look at the Small Block engines.

I know guys that have used the original steering column, but modified it to shift the automatic transmission (rather easy to do), so you would have the look of the three-on-the-tree but have a modern, reliable transmission. This would be my route.

Also, you might be able to find someone rebuild it cheaper, but once it's in your possession you're pretty much on your own if anything happens to it. Plus if you're not familiar with the shop you're taking a gamble there as well.

Most of the crate engines are long blocks, that means unless you already have one, you'll need manifolds, carbs/alts, distributors etc etc etc.

From what I gathered the OP really isn't looking for 400+hp

Getting 300HP out of an I6 is very doable and nowhere near what the total cost of a long block route would be.

Why by this motor:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/hpe-hp67/overview/

That's gonna cost $4500 (remember, its only a long block, you need LOTS of parts to make it a motor) then try and fit it to your frame....

A mildly warmed over V8 will kill this motor, and cost 1/2 - 1/3 rd the price.

Nothing anyone has posted has shown where doing it yourself if NOT going to cost less. I'm not sure what machining you guys think needs done to get a block ready... most of it is inspection (flux/pressure test head/block, measure journals/crank clean) and that costs less than $300 (I have receipts to prove it ) Even boring out cylinders (less that $180 for 6 holes).

My total costs to have an unknown block ready for assembly, and having it bored to +.020 was less than $800 (there were some other items like polish the crank, surface the flywheel etc in that $800 cost).

Rebuild kit was $750. I'm at $1500.

And know for the 'secret'. Most of the EASY performance you will ever get from a motor is from swapping the INTAKE AND EXHAUST MANIFOLDS and change the cam. That will get OP exactly what he wants, for less than $2500, installed, turn the key and drive away.

Fenton intakes are $200 in ebay, exhausts are $300. A 261 cam can be specified in the rebuild kit, might add $200.

I'm not saying either way is right, but cost wise, a crate motor (remember most are not turnkey engines.... they are long blocks and will require a lot more parts to get running) doing it yourself will save you, at the very least, a few hundred up to $1500-2000.

Can anyone show me some numbers that would contradict this?

Well I still can't tell if OP has a I6 or an V8 and that makes a difference in rebuild prices.
My 270 ran $2300 in machine and parts inc. having the head rebuilt and the radiator recored (cause a rebuilt engine is worth the insurance and my machinist darn near insisted on it)
I still had to assemble the whole thing as well as rebuild or refurbish the bolt on items.

That was in 09' in Fresno Ca. from a guy who knew rebuilding these old motors.

So if I'd of paid a shop for the complete rebuild I'd be closer to the crate number for a SBC if not over.

If your looking to stretch your skill level get the crate.
You can pick up an engine from a junkyard for scrap price and take all the bolt on stuff you need and there you have a beginners education and a warranty to boot.

I haven't picked up anything yet as I'm still considering my options. I've got the original I6 that's still in the truck but there isn't anything that's forcing me to stay with that.

I'm not married to the idea of a crate either but there is some comfort in knowing the cost versus getting halfway through a rebuild and finding that the price keeps climbing. I'm definitely looking to pick up some knowledge through this whole project but at the same time want to avoid getting in over my head.

Want to see what a little cashage in a 292 inline 6 can do? Check out the video. It shows a 1936 stover with a turbo-powered 292 pulling 8's at the strip. Basically with the stock leaf spring suspension no less....159mph and smokin the v-8s. I guess it pays to only weigh 2800 lbs. Enjoy - Scott

http://bangshift.com/blog/1320-video-sunday-8-second-36-chevy-pickup-and-its-a-6-cylinder.html

well I read the original post, it kind of looks like the fella has a 53 GMC, I would just get a 302, now THAT would get him to where he wants to go. As far as that goes, go to Sissels automotive website. They pretty much specialize in inlines. They got some cool stuff. I also happen to know a chevy cam won't fit in a GMC or vice versa. So you could spend $200 on a 261 cam if you wanted something to put over the fireplace. But would be useless in a GMC.

Looking at the pics that are linked by the OP, it looks like his truck might have a Chevrolet engine in it, rather than the GMC. I can't tell for sure which engine it is, though. It does have the 3 vent rocker cover.
Might be a good idea to confirm what engine is in it first. Can you possibly get some better pics of it? also, serial numbers and casting numbers will be usefull.

Canadian GNC's used Chev engines

Bill

I didn't notice that the OP was in Canada. Being a Canadian GMC, as Bill mentions, it would have a Chevrolet engine.

well there ya have it, so a 261 cam would work fine as long as the engine has the large journals, I do know a 53 216, and I believe 53 235 as well has the small journals. But here again, don't know about Canadian. And it won't work to grind down the journals on the cam even if the cam manufacturer says he will take enough off the back of the lobes to allow for this....so you would have to get your brand new cam reground to fit within the journals, then have them lose your brand new, never installed cam and give you a GMC cam that won't fit at all, Not that it stuck in my craw. Nonetheless, I would still go with the 302 given it IS a GMC.

I'll take a look tonight and see if I can get some better pics of the engine and find some numbers. The front end is off so the pictures shouldn't be an issue.