The Stovebolt Site Forums The Parking Lot Big Bolts More on the '59 Viking 60 Bus-"Saga of the Three Stooges"

Well,we went back out today,and got the bus running/idling. Just needed some fine-tuning. Like I previously mentioned,bus is now equipped with a dual-reservoir,under-floor M.C.,(designed for a 1/2-ton). After pumping the brakes about 1,000 times,we finally got fresh fluid flowing from both rear bleeders. On to the front. We couldn't get fluid,air,anything,for about a 1/2-hour. We decided to replace the old bleeders,and,10-minutes later,we had good,solid pedal. Not taking into consideration,that the old bus hadn't been plated/driven, since 1975,we figured good pedal,good brakes=road test! It was all up-hill from the drive to the road,so no problem,there. There is about a block-square-drive across the road,so Ron drove around the block in "granny,and 2nd-no problem. We went to stop at the intersection,and Ron had to stand on the brake,and the bus slowly rolled out onto the roadway! NOT GOOD!! Instead of ending the test,and figuring out the problem,they,(Bill W.,the owner, and Ron),decided to drive over to Ron's brother's,(P.O.'s) farm,and show it off! Now,there's a windy,loose gravel 6% hill,about a mile-long,between where we were and the P.O.'s farm! I suggested that we proceed back to the parking spot,and pull the hubs. 2 votes no,one yes. At least they opted for the path less hilly,so we proceeded with caution. Then Ron tried to see what was behind him,and then realized-NO MIRRORS!! Luckily,this is a very rural area,with minimum traffic. We crept down the first hill,in 2nd,and then climbing the knoll,the bus took-on enough speed for 3rd. Ron pulled the 2-speed button ,let off the gas,then gave it some gas,and WOW!! The 2-speed works! We got to the bottom of the hill,and Ron pushed the button in,(Too soon for my liking),and GRRRIND-BANG!! Yeah,she went into "LO",but it wasn't healthy.NOTE: 2-speeds are usually shifted into "HI",going down-hill,and into "LO",going up-hill We made it to his brother's place,and back,with no major problem,but Ron decided to climb the 6% grade hill,(different route), in 2nd gear. (My truck,('Mo'Tater"),climbs it with ease in 3rd). The engine was wound-out to about 4,000 R.P.M,then it "popped"-out of gear! He had to pull the E-brake quick,then the engine died! Ron tried,with the engine off),to put it back in "granny",but it didn't want to go into any gear! I told him to start the engine,and then try it. No problem,then. By the time we topped the hill,"she" was in fourth,and doing fine. Only other shaky moment was when he had to pull it into the drive,(5%-grade,about 300 feet),then turn sharply to the right,in order to back it into its resting place. Thank God the "E" brake works better than the rest! I don't think that we'll be taking the bus for another drive,until it has complete brake surgery! Thanks for all of your help,guys!! Some people just don't listen,but I just had to go along for the ride!! It WAS a HOOT!! I think Bill W. just might opt for that correct M.C.,this time around. You don't get answers,if you don't ask questions! He bought and installed the unit,before I had a chance to post it here,in case you're wondering. Please don't be like us! SAFETY FIRST!! THANKS!!

Hy wetwilly5757, I'm very glad that you made it out and back on your trip without serious incident! A master cylinder for a half ton simply does not have the volume required for multiple large bore wheel cylinders! How would your friend have felt if the bus had caused an accident, and possibly injured himself, you, or some innocent person? The reason that larger bore master cylinders are used is so there is enough capacity to operate the brakes even when they should be adjusted! As I said I'm very glad everyone is okay and nothing bad happened, but the things that could have happened scare me!

Well no one got hurt. Most of us have made decisions that seemed relatively safe at the time,, and morphed to what was I thinking afterward. I hope the e brake was tested before it was found to be needed. Working brakes are a good thing.

Good story, glad you survived to tell it, lol. I wonder why the brakes didn't work, though? If anything, a smaller bore m/c should have had a lower pedal, with less effort. What kind of m/c was it?

Not sure what the brand is. I know that he bought it from "Classic trucks,but didn't ask for advice,first. The unit is for 1/2-1-ton.And according to some expert opinions here,on the "Bolt",those units aren't sufficient in stopping a bigger truck. Another possibility,( I suggested),would be to try to adjust the "Stars". Maybe the wheel-cylinders aren't pushing the shoes against the drums. My answer was: "If you turn the "Stars" out too far,it will pop the caps off of the wheel cylinders". I give up. That's how I adjusted mine,and they both helped! I'll keep you posted! E-brake was known to be safe,before the excursion began. Thanks for the replies!

As 3B says, that master cylinder doesn't have enough volume. You need a master cylinder with a bigger bore.

Does this MC have a power brake booster?

The MC's sold with the kits are typically Corvette style. Due to the small bore you have to push the pedal further to move enough volume to fill the wheel cylinders. This puts the pedal dangerously close to the floor each time you stop.

Find a larger bore MC...

Be safe!

Mike B

The reason I asked is that the problem described doesn't add up to the m/c being too small. He said he "had to stand on the brakes" to get it to slow down, not that the pedal went to the floor. A smaller bore m/c will make more pressure, but at a lower volume. The bigger bore makes more volume, but as result, the pressure will be lower. It's just like gear reduction, only using fluid.

I've got a 70 C10 drum/drum dual res master and booster under the floor of my 48 4400. I can lock up all four corners with 6 ton of rock on the back and an 8' snow plow on the front. It's plenty big enough, there's something else going on with the bus,
Scott

Plenty of pedal,hard as a rock-but it seems that the shoes aren't even touching the hubs! No leaks anywhere! That's why I suggested the star adjusters,to no avail. I agree with Mike. Check everything over,to be on the safe side,and go with the M.C. that is designed fir the bigger "Bolts". And yes, Mike, The M.C. has a brake booster,(vacuum-operated). Thanks for the responses.

I bought both a completely new MC and a remanunfactured Hydrovac from: http://alretta.com/
Very nice guy to deal with and all parts on the shelf and fair pricing.

It's not the m/c, then. Too small=low pedal. A bigger bore cylinder will actually make the truck harder to stop. (At any rate, stock m/c was only 1.125" bore or something, right?) Also, I'm not sure how the wheel cylinders on a '59 60 series work, but again, I really think loose shoes should just make the pedal low, like they do on a Bendix system. I'm betting the lines are plugged or something, that's the only thing that makes sense, besides the wheel cylinders being frozen or something.

Thanks,Scott! there's at least 3" of hard pedal,whether engine is on,(booster),or not. That's why i think that the brakes are in dire need of adjustment! This bus is about 6-miles from Center Point! You might even know the P.O.! TAKE CARE!!

When you put a dual res on, you split the fronts and rears and double fluid flow. Also, instead of a 1 1/4" master controlling all four corners through one line, you have 1" master going to the front and a 1" master going to the back on the dual set up giving you more braking power to each corner. My set-up works great and I put the 1970 C10 (or C20) master/booster drum/drum set up on all my builds.

Who's the PO of the bus??? 6 miles which way from CP???
Scott

my bet is hard pedal ? means something it stopping the fluid either the wheel cylinders are NOT moving...or more likely 40+ years of flaky rust/dust/dirt really don't compress, but also really DON'T stop a couple tons of truck either. all I am saying is if the pedal is hard and you are not stopping, is that something is resisting the expansion of the wheel cylinder. Shoes could be stuck/ hard to move, or they can be comepletly grease coated and moving fine just not acomplishing anything. try adjusting them up, but the real answer is pulling the drums and take a look at whats going on.

not checking out the complete brake system before you take something vintage on the road is like pointing a gun at someone and not knowing if its loaded or not. some may have noticed i over stress brake system operations and this is why. until you pull those wheels you are playing russian roulette. BLAH BLAH BLAH

I agree 100%, 51 Ashton. They pulled the hubs yesterday. I didn't go out to help,because they just don't listen. Scott,the P.O. was Bill Hunt,(Ron's brother). Bus is parked at his old place on 59th St Trail. It was parked,(in Benton County),since 1975! I'll bet that the lines are either blocked,or one,or more of the wheel cylinders are frozen. Both of my fronts were beyond repair,on my '55 T.F.6500. someone adjusted the front brakes out so far,that it took a breaker bar,in one of the hand-holes,to turn the wheels! Thanks to Marvin Ribbich,He sent me two N.O.S.,still in the cardboard/tin boxes! Brakes work GREAT,BUT to be SAFE,I'll need to do a complete re-build,as well. Better safe,than sorry! THANKS for all of the replies!! I'll keep you posted on the progress.

I'm betting the wheel cylinders are frozen on three of the wheels. All of your stopping power is happening with just one drum and if it's not pulling hard to one side or the other the one working is on the rear...

If I'm right, one of these time you'll step on the brakes and one of the frozen cylinders will break free just long enough to lock up that wheel.

Mike B

Holy Hell, man! You/they drove a two ton bus that had been parked since 1975 without even pulling the drums?!?!

Yeah, as soon as "pedal was achieved,they were ready for a "road test". They (hopefully) pulled the drums,yesterday. I'm staying out of it. I just pass along the info,(THANKS TO ALL OF YOU),and that's the reason they're pulling the drums,instead of trying a brake adjustment. They had to drive it about 2-miles,to get it to a shop with an industrial impact. I haven't seen anything on the news,so I guess they made it there O.K.