The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Engine Shop Cleaning inside motor

So I have a newly acquired 235, very excited!
Person told me that as far as they can remember, there was a noise/knock from engine. When I took apart, first thing I noticed was one very loose pushrod. Lock nut had backed off, approx. 1/4 inch play. I figured, there's the noise. Going further it appears it was rebuilt and everything looks pretty good to me (first engine build, what do I know). It appears to be 55 head with 62 reman block(no numbers next to distributor),55 bell housing, .040 over pistons, rings look brand new, valve springs look newer. So here are my questions:

1/ can I clean inside motor with some type of solvent (brake clean maybe) without damaging the cam bearings etc?
2/ how can I tell if the head has updated hardened seats for unleaded fuel?

Here are some pics you can see of new engine. Any input here would be appreciated. Thanks...

http://fiftee6.com/fiftee3.2/

you don't need hardened seats, That engine has problems, there is a lot of rust on the cam, the oil hole in the crank is blocked with rust or something, that amount of rust in the combustion chamber (#'s 5&6) is not really a good sign, and would indicate something is most likely wrong. If you are going to rebuild it, you will take it to the machine shop for the work, where the very first thing they will do is remove the cam bearings, and all the little metal plugs, hot tank it (which wold ruin the cam bearings anyway), then check it for cracks and such. General accepted practice for cleaning engines before assembly is the aforementioned hot tanking, and a good scrubbing with the hottest water you can get out of your water heater and a good detergent and use brushes of various sizes to clean out all the passages, whereupon you use air to blow out all the passages and pretty much immediately apply some sort of oil to the machined surfaces to prevent rusting, I mean immediately, if you have it right, you will notice the shiny machined surface of whatever you have cleaned first beginning to fade from the flash rusting before you get the end of what it is you are cleaning last. Personally I like to fog the heck out of the passages with WD-40, the majority of it evaporates rather quickly, and it leaves a film that protects quite well. (I used to spray the electrical contact points of things that sat out on deck when I was a merchant mariner with WD-40, it worked very well to prevent corrosion in the salt air, I figure it would work fine for this. Not to mention this is pretty much the sort of thing it was developed for in the first place.) I do use brake clean/brushes to further clean the parts immediately prior to assembly and blow those off with air as well. I am very, very adamant about CLEAN when assembling machinery. This includes threaded holes, fasteners etc. You should probably stay attached to this website like a barnacle during your rebuild because unless you luck out and get a shop with some older fella doing the work, you will need to be able to tell them exactly what you want, not depend on them to know. Because despite the fact these engines are just another machine, they seem to deeply confuse many shops.

I agree with with brokenhead, there is to much rust in it not to pull it all apart. I would disassemble the whole engine marking where it all came from. Then using a good degreaser like Castrol or Purple power, soak the block and head and set off for the car wash. Spend a few dollars and really get it clean. inside and out plus the water passages. Be sure to wipe down the bores when you get done. Flash rust looks bad, buts its not really hurting anything. A rag with WG-40 will clean it right off. I would clean the crank, oil pan, all other sheet metal, oil pump and what ever else you take along the same way. $5 or $10 at the car wash will really make a difference. You can pre-clean the deck with sand paper or Scotch-brite pads that way all the trash is wash away.

The cam needs really cleaned and inspected, it must be super clean, 1000 grit or smooth paper should knock the rust off. If any pits are in it, replace it now. Don't try to sand them out. The picture looks like its only stained, so hopefully its ok.

Castrol degreaser is really strong and can stain aluminum, it won't hurt bearings, just discolors them. Scotch-brite or a rag will clean them right back up again.

The head is another concern, there seems to be plenty of rust on one end. All the valves need removed and cleaned. If one hangs up, you bend pushrods or break rocker arms. The deck also needs cleaned on it. A large sander works pretty good, 10" or bigger with soft sand paper (NO GRINDER), all you want to do is remove carbon and rust, no metal.

I would say your engine was partly rebuilt at one time, new rings and maybe a valve job. The trash behind the balancer looks old. If it was rebuild 100%, that would still be clean. It has some miles on it due to the carbon on piston tops. After a good cleaning, it will look a lot better and you will know more about them. Then the fun of assembly starts.

Joe

The amount of rust through out the entire engine is troubling. Looks like it was left out in the rain and water got in through a port. That would be your best scenario as the rust would be just mostly superficial and not caused by an internal leak. Also I can see pitting on the deck surface of the block. Because you don't know the cause of the water inside I would have the block and head checked for cracks after cleaning in a hot tank. If cracks are not found, checking and machining the deck surface and head surface if needed may be prudent. Some scoring on the piston is not a problem if the piston still mics out to spec. Just make sure the burrs are removed and the ring grooves are not affected. Many times piston scoring is caused by a very rich fuel dump or spill into the manifold which washes out oil from the rings, or overheating severely, hence checking the cooling system for cracks.

That is engine is too dirty to try and clean yourself with out risk of ruining your hard work from rebuilding.

in his notes beneath the pictures he said he could go .060 over and still be OK, leading me to believe he is intending to fully rebuild it. It is somewhat of a quandry, as parts of the engine look extremely good and others look rather awful. So fiftee3 where ever you are, it seems your engine needs some serious looking into. It may be fine, as was said earlier, the water may have gotten into the engine through open valves and not really be a problem. But you have to do your due diligence. It won't be cheap to rebuild your engine. You can buy a brand new custom grind cam for around $200 from Howards, I wouldn't even risk all that time and money even monkeying around with that cam in its' present condition. They aren't that hard to find.

So really great info here! Is this what I wanted to hear? No. Is this what I expected, Yes!
It appears to me also that most rust is from being outside. When I removed water pump, it was wet behind there and I thought what a mess.
So lets backup...I am very new to this. built my 56 210 myself, meaning I installed everything including a Big Block zz454.
This truck is going to be my daily ride. Right now, the 216 runs amazing, but block is cracked in usual spot from what I have read. As a kid, I remember my dad telling me you cant kill a straight six, no matter what you do.
So, I'm not saying that I want to put this back together as is, but I do (kidding) With 2 kids in college right now, cash is tight. I want to rebuild this cheap, but correct. (somewhat correct).
So I removed all valves, marked everything and am soaking in mystery oil. They look like they will clean up nice. Yes, pics look rough, but I thought cam looks ok and is just surface, no pits. Rings looked very new to me, so I was going to but a ring compressor after cleaning everything and put them back? Now I don't want you all to just agree with me cause that would be wrong, But, I am not looking for a brand new engine here. Just one that wont smoke, and will run.
I don't even know anyone around here that could tank the block for me. I was going to power wash everything. If you all tell me a full rebuild is the only way, then I guess I will try that way. But is there any other way? I realize that spending money on seals and gaskets to put all back together only to find out I have to tear down again is a waste. But right now, dollar wise, it may be my only option. Not saying I couldn't tear it down three years from now.
Any more opinions? I appreciate all...

I guess what I'm asking here is, If I clean this all up really good. I mean really good, and use all the original parts and fire her up, am I going to cause a real problem here?
Assuming all rust is gone, all ports are clear, nothing is bent,etc. Can I use the same rings? The one in the picture looks ok, no? I wouldn't know. If they all look like this, are they ok?
The middle ring has a very sharp edge on it like it would cut you. I would think if it were old or worn, it would be rounded.

since your in the situation your in....and I've been there with two in college, then why not do what your talking about and fire the engine up on a stand and run it before putting it in a vehicle. If the noise was truly the rocker nut backed off that is good news....and its common for re-man engines to have the numbers ground off. (my V8 is the same way) and for it to be .040 over on the pistons someone had been doing something.

Now, I agree with what the fellows have said...but, like most of us, I've seen a lots worse in my day. In the end pictures can be deceiving. The way you want to do it you only have a few dollars into it to get the real answer. Time is on your side, go for it.

...sometimes you can find the re-man tag on the engine. Usually down around the left side. If you have one it may identify the builder or date. If you know the re-man company you can call them with the number on the tag and they can tell you some info.
That may be dreaming now days but it use to be that way.

Good luck. Let us know what you decide...and the outcome.

Your plan is a good one, not every engine needs rebuild. The cam would be my only concern, but if you say it was only stains, then thats ok. Valves are really hard and it takes a lot to hurt one, cleaning them will tell you what you need to know. Lap the seats really good, install new seals, and assemble. Engines were done this way for years. Be sure to use assembly grease on the bearings and add some heavy oil to the oil pump.

Check the ring gap on a few of the top rings. Insert the ring in the bore, then using the piston inverted, push the ring down till the second ring stops the piston. Grab your feeler gauges and check the gap of the ring and compare that to the spec's for your engine. This will tell you if the rings are worn. While at this point, check for ridge wear at the top of the bores. If the pistons came right out, the wear must be minimal, there is a danger of breaking rings if the "ledge" is to great. New rings are more likely to break when the sharp edges hits the wear ridge of the block. Ridge reamers were commonly used to cut the ledge off. Straight stone cylinder hones can do it also.

I just degreased a Pontiac block this weekend with Castrol degreaser and a power washer, its as clean as any hot tanked block I've got back. I used the red pin point tip on my power washer to get down all the oil galley's. The red tip also strips paint really well.

Joe

The crankshafts rear main oil hole is clogged with rust.... the means every oil galley is suspect both in the crank and block.

To me that is a huge red flag. Rust is oxidized metal... so you have to wonder did the engine run with 'rusty oil' or did the rust come from the oil passages in the crank?

Lots of shops no longer have hot tanks... and baking it may not get it all.

Proceed with one word in mind: CLEANLINESS

Triple check everything for rust/grit or your $1500 rebuild won't last 1500 seconds.

How many stories have there been on this site of people starting these sixes after they sat for many years. I have one of those accounts myself. I would bet that if I had taken the engine apart before starting it, it would have looked a lot worse.

By the way that piston does not have a lot of time on it. I am going to guess that your cylinders are probably not worn much. You didn't have to remove a ridge to get the pistons out, did you.

but in those stories the crankshaft holes aren't plugged solid with rust....did you look at the pictures?

Joe H, thanks for the good tips. I will measure as you rec.
Truckernix / Yes, I thought pistons were newer as well. Like I said, rings seem new too. As for removing a ridge, not sure what you mean here? To get piston out, I removed pushrod and pushed it out thru the top, piston first. Bad? Is there something different I should do before removing other 5?
Yes, there is rust, but I am going to blast this thing this weekend w/power washer. I will post pics afterwards to update.

I removed the camshaft tonight and stood it upright as to not lay it flat (read that somewhere). All I did was wipe it with a paper towel. Do you all still agree this is NG. Or some cleanup might be ok? Here the pictures. Also sanded oil pan and stripped of all oil residue. Primed and painted with high heat paints.
I had to feel like I was progressing!

HERE ARE THE CAM PICTURES http://www.fiftee6.com/fiftee3.3/

Just a quick warning if you use Superclean/Purple Power, be very carefull using it around aluminum. Short term exposure shouldn't hurt anything other than discoloring it as mentioned earlier, but leaving it on any aluminum parts for more than about 10-15 minuits can lead to perminant damage to aluminum parts. The active ingredient in those degreasers is lye, and it is very corrosive to aluminum. It can also cause burns to your skin when used straight from the bottle. It will also strip paint and remove the finish from vacuum plated plastic part in undiluted form as well.

fiftee3,
if the motor had a lot of cylinder wear, there would be a ridge at the top of the cylinder where the rings stop. Removing the piston then becomes almost impossible without breaking rings. In your case you didn't have this problem.

Are you sure that engine has ever been ran? I see practically no signs of usage on that cam. However my concern would be why the crankshaft holes are plugged solid with rust. along with the rust in the head. What ever the case you need to get it checked for cracks, you need to make sure all the oil passages are cleaned of rust, take out every plug and clean the passages, you can get all the way through all of them with appropriately sized brushes.

Cam looks good to me, just a little staining. I took a few old Pontiac cams out to the street and threw them as high as I could to see if the would break or bend. I ended up tossing them hard against the curb a lot of times till I broke one. Laying one down will not hurt a thing!

Joe

Like brokenhead said, the rusty oil passages need to be looked into, really. It looks like that engine is probably very low mileage, 50,000 maybe, but that may have been 50 years ago.

For me, it's far too nice an engine to "see what happens". Inline sixes are anvil tough and reliable as the sun, but rod and main bearings still need oil. Wait and go though it before running it. It should be an easy rebuild and a great engine after that. JMHO

Yes, it seems like it has not been run as Brokenhead mentioned. I took the remaining 5 pistons out tonight. Each one looked better than the next, I don't get it. All six piston sleeves have surface marks that look fresh like it was recently honed.

When I purchased, there was little know about motor. Only that it knocked, so it was removed from car/truck whatever.

I mentioned that I found a pushrod loose that would explain the knocking, but here in my little/No engine building experience is the problem...This was the the second from rear of motor piston crank rod, watch the video, then in lower left corner click on the shims that were in that one.

CLICK HERE http://www.fiftee6.com/fiftee3.4/

I am going to remove crank tomorrow. I will keep you all posted.
This weekend I plan the scrub,brush,scrub and power wash the block.

It actually looks in the photos of the shim that those are actually the 2 that are supposed to be there, but spun around into one on half a side and just wore thru. Must of sounded real bad at idle!

Wow, you have a spun rod bearing that underwent some creative metal shaping! Yes it is looking like a complete teardown. The crankshaft journal will have been messed up I presume. I think there is good news here with a lot of the other parts, new pistons etc.

Oh it is a really good thing they shut it down. That rod would likely have made a really big hole in the block.

If the crankshaft journal is the spot where the rod bolts to, then actually,no. It seems to be in as good of shape as the others. I would have thought that by looking at this bearing that the crankshaft would be toast. But looks ok, strange.
I will post more pictures in the next few days.
Again, I appreciate all feedback, good or bad.

There is your knock, the rod bearing spun. I will bet money the crank is bad. If the damage is not to deep, it can be repaired. A good crank grinder can fix it. You will need over sized bearings on that rod. What you can run into is batch of bad bearings and bearing surfaces. The missing metal from the spun bearing goes through the oil system destroying the rest of the bearings. It depends on how long it was run once it spun. Do not try and repair the crank yourself. The rod usually survives. Be sure to really look at the lifter faces, you want to make sure no metal got to them. You also need to be extra careful when cleaning, be sure to really get down each oil passage as best you can.

Looks like your rebuild just got a little more expensive !

Joe

I want to know where the side play in the rod came from. I don't believe the bearing has anything to do with that. I wonder if it was put together with the wrong rod.

I took measurements of the crank tonight using a friends digital caliper.
From the flywheel side to the pulley measures:
1 / 2.302
2 / 2.260 this was the spunout bearing
3 / 2.296
4 / 2.299
5 / 2.306
6 / 2.304

The crank main bearings starting from the flywheel side are

1 / 2.768
2 / 2.734
3 / 2.716
4 / 2.678

It appears all mains are brand new including frt and rear seals.
Am I ok here? What size bearings would I need. Not sure od what specs should be. Like I said earlier, it seems to be a 62 block.

what size bearings would I need for this situation? Not sure what .10, .20 .30 under means. I see some on line. Or, is crankshaft shot?

Those measurements, especially for the rod journals, don't come anywhere near what a journal should be. I wonder who did that to a crankshaft.

You need a shop manual that gives the specifications for the engine. Compare those to yours. .010" .020" .030" is standard over sized bearings. Most crank grinders will not go over .020". The bearing surface is hardened to take the wear and tear of engine life. Its only so deep in the material and when you go to grinding .030" (.015" per side) off, you risk the chance of getting into softer metal. This measurement, .010" is ten thousands of a inch smaller then what the crank started out as. It was ground down smaller to remove damage. So with a small crank journal, you need bigger bearings to take up the space. Rods journals are the same way. The rod itself can be repaired. The cap is ground off slightly to make the hole oblong, then the rod and cap are bolted back together and honed out back round to the correct size. You can use standard bearings on a repaired rod if the crank is standard size. Go to a online shop manual!

A spun bearing is just what it sounds like. The two tangs that hold it in place in the rod have failed. Most likely the bearing surface of the crank went bad or oil supply was lost to that one journal and the bearing seized to the crank for a moment. When this happens the bearing tangs won't hold and the bearings rotate in the rod. Once they get loose, the problems compound very quickly, till you get where you are now. The rotating and pounding destroy the bearing halves, the rod, and usually the crank. On top of that, all the metal from the bearing is now dispersed in the whole engine. I would bet money, all the bearings are impregnated with bits of metal.

Main bearing measurements can only be done with the caps torqued in place. The outside dimension doesn't mean much, you need to measure where the crank rides while torqued down with proper shims if applicable. You also need to measure in a couple of spots, usually north/south and east/west to get a good ideal of true size.

Joe

My book says 2.311-2.312 diameter for rod bearings (for a 60-62 235, btw). 2.260 means it's 0.051 undersize now from spinning.

For main bearings it says #1=2.6835-2.6845, #2=2.7145-2.7155, #3=2.7455-2.7465, and #4=2.7765-2.7775. (I'd guess you are numbering them backwards)


Hope this helps.

the front is #1, you're numbering them backwards. I have seen engines on ships that were numbered either way, but these go front to back. I don't think that crankshaft is any good, fortunately they are cheap and easy to find.

Well, I am moving along. I did clean engine very good. Flushed with power washer for a long time. Took about 1/2-45 min to run clean. Started to flash rust. Sprayed inside pistons, lifters with wd40. Cleaned motor externally and painted.
I know, its not blue or gray, but I love Chevy red-orange.
Ran taps thru all threads. Still looking into replacing crank from spun bearing. Going to take apart head next. I will keep you all posted. I process of searching for T5 trans. Not easy.
Here are some pics of painted block...
http://www.fiftee6.com/fiftee3.5

Looks good, they should have been red to start with!

I just finished up a Pontiac engine, I washed it after the shop was done working on it. They sure do flash rust in a hurry, you can't oil them fast enough. It wipes right out though, so no harm done.
Joe