The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Engine Shop fenton headers quality control?

I am fitting the headers to a 51 3100 with a 235.
The instructions say grinding is necessary as it has always been. That seems like an poor excuse but I did it. What really bothers me is the wall thickness varies from just over 1/16" to just over 1/4". (wall thickness, not the flange thickness). $300 should buy a better quality casting than that. Is there a better manufacturer out there or is this the norm?

Keep in mind the "Fenton" headers of today aren't made by Fenton. They are made under license by another manufacturer, likely in China. Anyway that's what I was told by a local hot rod & custom parts seller.

they are made in china, as well as the intakes, I couldn't believe it when I got my brand new fentons, and the box said "made in china" If you get yours in the original box, you will want to cry too. Some things should be a bit more sacred.

you're able to buy obsolete limited production parts brand new and whining about having to work them a bit? wonder how many folks could afford -or find- the originals?

Bill

Originals are extremely hard to come by, I have been looking for quite some time. I would not want to grind and custom fit something I just paid $300 for either, thats why I am going to go to a split manifold. Would seem to me if something is "limited production", quality control would be alot better.It is a shame the number of things that are made in China these days

Seems like prices for these Fentons are all over the place. Just bought a set for $200 but have seen them quite a bit higher. I'm not real happy either if a lot of grinding will be involved...call me a whiner if you want.

What intake manifold are you dealing with when you find you have to grind the Fenton exhaust manifold to match it?

A few years ago, I matched a Chinese Fenton dual-carb intake manifold and a Chinese Fenton dual exhaust manifold, no grinding was necessary.

16 years ago, when I matched Fenton exhaust manifolds to an Offenhauser dual-carb intake manifold, I had to grind both pieces (as explained in the instructions). None of the this grinding had anything to do with China. Patrick's inclosed a sheet that explained that Mr. Fenton must not have discussed his design with Mr. Offenhauser - grinding was required

I'll find out soon about what, if anything, needs to be ground-off to match Fenton exhaust manifolds with an original GM 1954 235 intake manifold.

I had to grind the clamps to get them to fit the original intake with the headers, I haven't installed the intake yet. But I have a whole batch of the clamps so I will be ok. The edelbrock intake doesn't fit very well either. As a matter of fact, I am pretty sure with the headers I have I will grind into the heating jacket of the intake if I go far enough to get it to fit, so I bought the fenton....

Had to grind the tabs and the clamps to fit to an original manifold. Not whining about that so much. But 1/16" wall thickness on a casting is just [censored] poor. My last project was a 69 Mach 1. Many repro parts were so bad they were unusable and were sent back. Suppliers should realize we would pay more for a quality part that actually fits!Heading to Charlotte Autofair next month to find as many good original parts as possible.

The current headers are cast it Taiwan. Still considered China but not communist.

Anyway, be glad you didn't have to mod them for a GMC. Talk about some grinding.

Good background info. Getting ready to pull apart our 235 (mystery motor - see posts under '39 block and casting numbers this forum). Hopefully our OEM parts will be good enough for cleaning and reassembly.

Let me get this straight. You pay hundreds of dollars for a set of cast Fenton headers and get back a casting that is only 1/16" thick in some places, and you call that whining?

What do you think is going to happen in not very long a period of time? That 1/16" thin spot is going to burn thru. I'd say that's a pretty good reason to be upset.

Quality, in both workmanship and material has went down the toilet over the years. It seems that a lot of manufacturers have found that the general public will accept junk, and they make junk, because it is accepted. Until more folks take a stand and either make their own or support someone that will make quality, nothings going to change. Just about the time you find someone willing to take the time to make a quality product, there is always someone in the wings that can copy it and make it cheaper. Cheap ain't good, and good ain't cheap.
Just my .02.
Tramp

no Dad, I don't pay anything for repro Fenton headers, not into bling

Bill

I don't blame you. I wouldn't either. I'd sooner make my own set of headers than to get a Chinese repro with thin castings.

I just bought a set of Fenton's from chevys of the 40s for GMC 270 / 302.
I asked them about grinding and they said they were cast specifically for GMC.. I'll keep my fingers crossed.
$260 aint the end of the world, but I'll agree with most on that casting quality generally is crap, i have a buddy who is restoring a Model A Ford, he has shown me stuff with so bad quality that he's afraid to install it on the car.

If my new headers wont do the trick, i'll save up and call Clifford or build a set of my own.

Bling? How about a 15 to 30% increase in horsepower? Would you call that bling? 6 cylinder engines are notorious for poor breathing. Adding headers will dramatically change their performance.

I have Fenton headers (originals), an Offy dual carb manifold with Rochester Model B's and a 3/4 cam, and my engine has plenty of pep. It's the difference between a Camaro and a Chevy II.

I'll take a 283 any day for "plenty of pep"

Bill

Jeez I'd of thought the "difference" experienced would be most attributable to the 3/4 cam... How much of that 20 - 30% of HP is pipes in and out and how much is cam?

The "Soup That Chev!" 1955 Hot Rod Magazine article on "upgrades" to a 261 shows results for the addition of the 235 Corvette's dual-exhaust manifold resulting in another 5% increase in horsepower.

The addition of dual carbs resulted in a total increase in horsepower of 16% at 2500 RPM and 18% increase at 4000 RPM.

30% increase from a 235 when adding Fentons alone is unlikely.

Adding a higher-lift cam (261 cam or higher lift), more carburetor CFM, and dual exhaust manifold does give a noticeable increase, but maybe not 30%?

Seat of the pants claims of power gains are directly proportional to how thin your wallet gets.

Let us know how that turns out. I thought all of them had to be ground down to fit the GMC 6's.

Jeff

Jeff,

Recieved the headers and had a look.
They do not seem to be ground, but on the back side (casted letters) they say "Chevy" .. On the front side there are stamped letters "gmc"
The overall casting seems ok, there are differences in thickness here and there. (acceptable)

Issues so far: the front header do not line up with the exhaust ports on the head, either I'm crazy or the distance of the header ports are about 3/8' to narrow/short.
I think it will be ok with alittle creative grinding on the inside of the header ports..

I am using a stock 2bbl nos military manifold on a small port 270, so i need to use port size adapters, fabricate most of the clamps, Fabricate heat plate etc.. But that's general hot rod headache

Overall impression of the chevys of the 40's Fentons for GMC: Ok, not superb but ok.

I also bought a set supposedly modded for a GMC. The only mod I could find on them was where they ground a flat spot and stamped GMC.

Here's how I adapted mine.

I don't know what you all are grinding, but mine the flanges were different. Rather than grind on my $200-300 (I don't remember how much they cost) headers I adjusted the little $15 clampy thingys. I do know that the edelbrock intake won't fit with the fentons without some serious grinding on one or the other. Which on mine at least would put me periously close to perforating one or the other. So if you get a good deal on an edelbrock intake, this is probably why, I have seen them installed together, but I don't really know how. Seems a shame too, it is such a nice looking intake.......

Tend to agree with red58 , in addition if the parts were made in the U.S. everyone would be complaining that they cost $600 a pair.

From what I have heard on the Fenton headers castings, they come in a overseas container and the castings are first inspected, sorted and graded into A B & C lots.

The sellers that are cheapest on them are selling the "C" {or blem }castings.

The sellers that are the most expensive are selling the "A" grade headers.

Well I did say 15-30%, but I hope you guys realize that on an advertised 105hp motor (stock) that's only about 15 to 30hp increase? The Corvette the same year had an advertised 155hp with a similar setup to what I have.

The sixes were notorious for poor breathing. Headers and exhaust would do wonders for them, especially if you improved the intake side as well.

I am one of the ones that sorted through the container & loaded up a cart of "A" grade castings.
http://img.claspics.com/w8cp5hb/hf35z750/1365033994-408.jpg_t.jpg?1365034029

I am one of the ones that sorted through the container & loaded up a cart of "A" grade castings.
http://img.claspics.com/w8cp5hb/hf35z750/1365033994-408.jpg_t.jpg?1365034029
[/quote]

I call BS. I took the picture you linked to at Patrick's. MT was in the picture before you cropped him out

yeah Cletis, I reconize Joe's nose, hands and blue shirt even with the tiny thumbnail pic

Bill

I don't know, but I bought an un-polished intake, and was going to polish it myself. However some of the seams are so far off, I am wondering if it will perforate the casting if I take enough off to actually make it shiny. Which lends credence to the fellas story in my opinion, because I was wondering if they did something like this. It would make sense to use the grade "A" castings for polishing, and leaving the more flawed units for general consumption. The ports at the engine are horrible with really bad ridges right where the aligning rings go. I did all I could to blend them in, but there just isn't enough metal there. Just a shame someone couldn't have mentioned that part up front. Dishonesty, and vagueness don't tend to lead to a good relationship.

Don't get me started on the Fenton cast aluminum intakes as I would rather stay on topic here.

Lots of high post counts around here but,not very informed.

Another bit of insider header news for you.

After the raw castings are removed from the mold they go to the machining room to be cleaned up and are put in a jig to have the mating surfaces decked along with drilling and tapping. Most of the variable differences with them have to do with the guy who makes the judgment call and hand grinds the slag off the castings. Some castings come out of the mold nearly perfect and some need a copious amount of grinding to clean up properly.
This is where the grading process comes in. The A castings have none or very few grinding marks. The B castings some tool marks and the C castings with grinding marks all over them.

The foundry that casts them {located in Taipei Taiwan} recently had to re-tool as the old tool was wearing out.
After re-tooling the header mold they had to do a test run of 50 pairs of headers.These 50 test pairs will be easy to spot as they won't have the Fenton logo on them.
Projected retail on these will be in the $140-$160 range ,so keep your eyes open in a few months when they hit the market if you want a deal on them.

Don't contact me on them as I am only a wholesaler. I don't get involved with retail sales on them.
K.C. Smith Group currently has the best retail price on the headers at $185 on ebay but, their supply is running low.

With the shake up in ownership of the companies involved with making them, the days of $200 fenton headers will soon be over.
Watch for the availability to be tightened up on them and watch for steady price increases on them.

Simplex, that's good info, thanks!

Since you seem involved in the manufacturing process/chain i would take it that you might have some contacts regarding the overall design of the Headers?

I would with all respect for the Fenton brand suggest that:

1. rear header flange should point 90 degrees downward (instead of currently 76 degrees or something) (front header points 90 degrees) (this was the most annoying thing when fabricating a dual exhaust setup, the angles gets messed up)

2. Both front and rear flanges could be made slightly larger to accomodate a bolt and nut setup for fastener (threaded holes on soft cast material will take a beating)
(By flanges i mean the end of the header that connects to the exhaust pipe)

=)

the reason the headers go that way is the one should fit right up to the original exhaust and you would only have to fabricate one pipe instead of two.

It doesn't matter which angle the exhaust dumps are angled, some ya-hoo will always stumble along and complain that they can't get it to fit their particular rare application or they want this or that changed in the casting.
The current headers being made are identical copies of the originals that were made in the 50's so, if you wish the castings were different, I suggest you fire up your flux capacitor equipped DeLorean and go back in time to hunt down Mr. Fenton himself for your input.
{ While you are there stop by the GM plant & tell them to install stainless steel floorboards in all GM trucks so we won't have to deal with rusty cab floors 60 years later}.

Angle grinding the output dumps and installing asbestos donut seals with hardended steel studs, steel flanges and brass nuts is the only recommended way to install the headers.
Flat gaskets are a waste of time & will warp and leak in short order.

Some of the early Fenton headers were cast with dumps flanges at a 90 deg. angle but, they actually conflicted with the steering column and 3 speed column shifter rods on some car applications.

The current configuration of the Fenton headers has proven to be the most compatible with the largest variety of vehicles without clearance problems.


Fenton did experiment with casting integral heat plates into their headers at one time.
It proved to be problematic as the bolt pattern between the early and late 216 & the 235's intake manifolds was different and compatibility problems soon arrived and the heat plate was quickly eliminated from the casting.

http://img.claspics.com/w8cp5hb/hflwc435/1366166667-436.jpg_m.jpg?1366167941