I am working on frame up resto's and does anyone know of a place (or way) that I can have frame parts riveted again after they have been removed? This is a real problem if you are trying to get cross members or channels repaired properly. How do YOU attack this problem? Anyone?
"When we tug a single thing in nature, we find it attached to the rest of the world" ~ John Muir "When we tug a single thing on an old truck, we find it falls off" ~ me Some TF series details & TF heater pics
Deve, Bill is right on. I don't know of any of us hobby guys, or even a local professional shop that can rivet like your talking about. I do suggest using Grade 8 bolts on chassis/stress/load area's. Let us know if you figure out a neat way to rivet your chassis. I see this question come up a lot.
It is overkill on a smaller vehicle, but this is the type bolt I use on frames on my 18 wheelers. http://www.imperialsupplies.com/item/0192380 They come in all sizes and are used with flanged nuts.
Truck manufacturers used these until about 15 years ago. They now use Huck bolts because they are cheaper and much quicker to install.
The flange bolts and flange nuts crenwelge linked to are what I use for bolted frame pieces.
For riveted frames I re-rivet them. It's not real easy but can be done and done well even for us "hobby" folks. Ideally we'd do them cold with a huge/strong hydraulic press but that's unlikely to happen these days. The way you can do it at home is hot and set them with an air hammer or better yet a real rivet hammer and the appropriate dies. Heat the rivet red hot then install it in the frame and set it. Hard to get them tight if you heat them already in the frame.
Grigg.. do the riveting tools on that website reach all of the rivets on an AD truck? What model do you recommend? I am assuming you need an OA Torch, heat them red hot, then set them? This is very interesting. Thanks!
I use a CP 717 to buck rivets about the size you would use. It uses a .498 Parker shank. Anything larger than that would be something you only use once and the rivet sets would be very expensive and it would be very clumsy. The CP 717 works very well to cut rivets and Huck bolts as well. All kinds of chisels are available with .498 shank. Our trailers are all aluminum and of course we use aluminum rivets. But I have bucked steel rivets that were red hot just for the reason you are looking for. You need to make sure the rivet set matches the head or it will distort the head. You probably would want button head rivets so you would want to get a rivet set for button head rivets. We get all of our rivets and Huck bolts from Byler Rivet, but I'm not sure if they carry steel rivets any more. Big Flats Rivet specialize in rivets for antiques, and of course they charge for having something that is hard to find. Red hot steel rivets actually buck easier than aluminum rivets, so the CP 717 would do just fine.
Someone recommended these guys to me. I have never bought anything from them, but it looks like their prices are much more down to earth. And you would probably want to buy rivets by the pound so you can practice setting them. It takes practice just like welding.
You might be able to use something like a 5x gun with a .401 Parker shank. You might give these guys a call. They will probably explain to you how to buck rivets. Most important is that you use a riveter, not a plain old air chisel. You need to have a very controllable throttle.
Are all the rivets in the frame of both AD and TF trucks the same size? What is the special method for removing them from the frame without goofing up the frame?
Kicking self for selling off my Taskforce trucks. Still looking for an LCF or conventional big bolt in decent shape.
As of 10-26-2022, A 55.2 Taskforce long bed now the work begins
I agree with crenweledge's advice and have set rivets with that type of rivet hammer/gun. The bigger ones are just a little better for the big rivets, I happened on a good deal on one, if I were buying something closer to full price the other type certainly does the job and is cheaper.
With some creative rivet bucks and possibly longer sets you can rivet any and all on these old truck frames with a standard air rivet hammer.
To remove rivets a big cold chisel and suitable hammer works well. Drill them part way through if you need to, not always necessary if you are comfortable swinging a hammer though.
ok, so excuse me for asking elementary questions, but looking at these rivet hammers, what do you back them up with? I am seeing an OA torch to turn them red hot, tongs to hold them and put them in place, the rivet hammer to set them, but what holds them in place that has the mega-hundred pounds of torque the hammer is going to induce? what am I missing? thanks! this is a great thread. Where is a good place to purchase the riveter exactly?
By the way, I want the ability to set all the rivets that are on the AD frame. There are about 3 different sizes. I am sure this means 3 different dies as well? The frames I have, and will have, all have pretty severe rust damage and/or another hobbyist damage trying to weld the problem. Removing the cross members, shock mounts, etc etc would be awful nice but I have this hangup about keeping things stock. thx
Do a youtube search for hot rivets and watch some being done then get specific in your search there and find some one doing a frame for auto's. Then come tell us what you find...
I agree with crenweledge's advice and have set rivets with that type of rivet hammer/gun. The bigger ones are just a little better for the big rivets, I happened on a good deal on one, if I were buying something closer to full price the other type certainly does the job and is cheaper.
With some creative rivet bucks and possibly longer sets you can rivet any and all on these old truck frames with a standard air rivet hammer.
To remove rivets a big cold chisel and suitable hammer works well. Drill them part way through if you need to, not always necessary if you are comfortable swinging a hammer though.
Grigg
Yeah I know how to do all this. But my question was how to do it with out goofing up the frame. Meaning not marking it at all. To drill the rivet you would then need a special tool to center on the rivet. And most important you need to know the proper size to drill it with. What are the frame hole sizes? TF here I don't do AD's.
Kicking self for selling off my Taskforce trucks. Still looking for an LCF or conventional big bolt in decent shape.
As of 10-26-2022, A 55.2 Taskforce long bed now the work begins
Yeah I know how to do all this. But my question was how to do it with out goofing up the frame. Meaning not marking it at all. To drill the rivet you would then need a special tool to center on the rivet. And most important you need to know the proper size to drill it with. What are the frame hole sizes? TF here I don't do AD's. [/quote]
Find a tube with the right ID for each size rivet. Close off one end and find the center then drill it out for a guide. Slip over rivet and drill.
Yeah I know how to do all this. But my question was how to do it with out goofing up the frame. Meaning not marking it at all. To drill the rivet you would then need a special tool to center on the rivet. And most important you need to know the proper size to drill it with. What are the frame hole sizes? TF here I don't do AD's.
Take your 4.5 grinder and flaten the top of the rivet. Then eyeball the center and drill with a 3/8 drill. When you are through the head it'll just pop off. Then use a hardened drift to knock out the remaining rivet.
Should take you less than a minute per rivet without damage to the frame or supports.
I do what JohnTsmith does. I leave just 1/32 thickness of head so I can find the center, then drill about 1/4 deep and smack it with a drift or punch. I would never bother to re-rivet a frame. I would never be sure they were all tight. There are a bunch of aftermarket accessories of all kinds, most are bolted on, none are riveted. You better be sure the piece is located properly or you will be de-riveting and re-riveting. Proper riveting requires both pieces to be line drilled (drilled at the same time) You may not have that!!! Unless you are the "line up" king of the world.
Right is right, even if everyone is against it, and wrong is wrong, even if everyone is for it. - William Penn
I created this thread to better understand how to actually re-rivet the AD frame parts when you notice the decay and rust related damage that needs to be addressed by removing the rivet. Drilling out a rivet is really a no brainer. You can carefully grind the head clear off with a makita grinder in a matter of seconds, do it right and drill it out as explained nicely above. But I have been researching re-riveting these frames for years now and I just dont get all the questions I need answered. Usually someone pops up with.. just watch a video or just contact a vendor for riveting machines. Well FFS WHERE? This is why I pay close attention to this site.. to learn. I am rather thick headed tho and I dont always understand the actual processes. For example, where this thread stands right now is, There are these riveting hammers, you heat up the rivets and use the riveting hammer. Problem is, you need to BACK UP the hammer with something. You have this hot rivet, you put it in the hole, you hit it with the hammer, and it goes flying out of the hole because there isnt anything backing it up? Thanks for your patience, I realize we are all in different places in the learning process.
New Guy Devek: This is an old technology when it comes to Big Solid Rivets that need to be heated so that they will upset properly. Riveting is still used by most aircraft and boat builders on aluminum but they are pop rivets or cherry rivets. (cold upset blind). Yes you need to back it up, Since you know that and are pretty smart, you can figure out the "backing" needs to have a concave to match the head and pressure against the head, hand held or otherwise. It's called a dolly. Look up rivet dolly or bucking. There are many ways I can think of but I would want to watch a video of a ship yard or old building erection, etc to see what the old timers did. Bolted joining has replaced rivets on most structural steel fabrication such as bridges. We do have a lot of info on old trucks, but if you want the history and proceedure for big solid riveting, you have received good general info from those who have done it. If you want more, study the internet or go to the library or search for videos as advised. You may also find a forum dedicated to restoring bridges or ships or a metal working forum.
Right is right, even if everyone is against it, and wrong is wrong, even if everyone is for it. - William Penn
Ok, ok, what you are proposing is not a one man operation. Structural steel riviting was a three man dance that they did on bridges, building skeletons or any of the large steel fabrications. You had the catcher who placed the hot rivets, the bucker who bucked the backside of the rivet and the riveter who handled the pneumatic hammer. Of course in the factory they had very large dedicated hydralic anvil riveters to close the rivet cold. Any one that has seen the Jam Handy films from the 30's has seen these in use.
So Deve, If you are serious about totally dissasembling a frame and reriveting it, you will need the pnumatic hammer, a bucking bar and someone to hold it, a rivet heater and someone to place the rivet since you've only got a few seconds to drive it before the frame suckes the heat out of the rivet.
This is a very BIG project you are thinking about attempting. Driving a few rivets is bad enough but a whole frame is a monumental task.
There is a lot of information on the net about hot riveting, here's a good starting place:
This is an interesting subject but in the end, I am mostly worried about period correctness in the resto process. The frames I get always have a crossmember missing, or serious rust damage. If only there was a rivet looking bolt/nut combination so the difference wasnt so obvious. Thanks guys!
I'm not sure what all is going on here or did I miss something....nothing new,eh. But to take rivets out I simply use my grnder, with a flap disk so I don't grind up the frame as with a carbon disk, and I hit the top of the rivet making it flat. Center punch it then drill it out with a bit smaller than the rivet, usually a 1/4 or 5/16. I drill till its just deep enough to be past the chassis rail, then get my favorite punch and knock it out. Nice and clean hole, no chisel marks ect on the chassis.
If you are really concerned about period correct restoration to the point that you are worried about frame fasteners, I would suggest you start out with a vehicle that doesn't have rust out. They are still to be found in places like the high desert and Arizona.
I wouldn't fuss with riveting, a lot of times the factory couldn't get it right. One example would be the radius arm brackets found on Ford F150s of the 90s. They were poorly riveted and the brackets walked back and forth causing bad effects with steering. Agree with the other poster, bolt it with some grade 8 Fasteners nut and lockwasher and you know it will be tight.
1953 Chevrolet 3100 261 cu inch, sm420, 3.55 rear, torque tube still,omaha orange, still 6 volt, RPO green glass, side carrier spare, all done In the DITY Gallery Video of the 261 running
1964 GMC 1000 305 Big Block V6, sm420, the next cab off restoration
Ya got that right Alvin. Poppin' the old rivet out is the easy part. Just grind a small flat on the head, center punch, (I use a center drill first) then drill out starting with a small drill (1/8") then to a bigger drill and drive the plug out with a drift and 3lb hammer. The guys riviting the cross member in the frame in the link I posted earlier make it look easy don't they.
The above post should read "...Mark the center with a center punch and drill..."
Never used a center punch for this. Just ground and used a sharp drill bit with a little muscle behind it (not saying you can't). I go all the way through until the head pops. Sometimes I get a little champer on the part but really, it's hidden under the bolt head and that samll amount won't weaken anything.
Seems to me, if you are going to repairing a frame rail, getting a rivet out and back in shouldn't be your biggest concern. I would be more worried about the type of repair you plan to make that doesn't show when you are done, welding a frames is not a easy project. If you are replacing a crossmember, that's different.
That's overkill for an AD/TF truck in my opinion. It's never going to bring any more money with a riveted frame than a bolted frame repair. You would be doing it for your own preference not some customer. It's not a Duesenberg, it was originally a farm truck, it was not fancy when new, just really neat and good looking. They don't normally appear at the Pebble Beach Concours d'Elegance. Use a stovebolt head bolt if you want it to look like a rivet, but no one will ever see it. Option 2: Buy all the necessary equipment, as described by other posters, and start practicing. Devek does not need any more how-to regarding rivet removal. He has said he knows how and even gives an explanation on how to do it himself. So that's covered. The video links Denny gave are very informative and show exactly how to rivet. You can even see how to make some dolly's. Devek indicates that all anyone ever does is suggest "watch a video". Meanwhile his website is full of how-to's with pictures. I don't know what more anyone can do for this restorer. We have explained it in words and provided moving pictures. A picture is worth a 1000 words. I've never seen so many people try to help someone. That's the Stovebolt for ya.
Right is right, even if everyone is against it, and wrong is wrong, even if everyone is for it. - William Penn
By all means if you want to replace a rivet with a rivet do so and do it right, this thread is full of good advice so far. On the other hand if you don't care about rivets and or don't have the equipment or skill to use them then try some bolts.
I completely understand the desire to be original where you can, don't turn this thread into what's worth doing and what's not, its about riveting if you want to.
On my 48 I replaced about a dozen 3/8" rivets that were missing, broken, necessary to remove to repair something, or badly done originally. I have also replaced a good number of rivets on a 1928 Hudson car frame, the level of restoration it received demanded everything be done right, so rivets went back where rivets were.
On removing them any number of methods described work. I'd like to point out that a big cold chisel and a bigger hammer, at least in my hands, can remove a 3/8" and smaller rivet quicker than any other method I've tried and also do it without knicking or damaging the frame in any way.
On how to actually do the hot riveting the online videos really are a great way to learn about it. Its hard to spell it out in words, better to just watch it being done.
Next time I have to do some hot rivets I'll be sure to take some videos for Y'all.
Yes, I am satisfied with the responses for sure. I have made a frame rotisserie and spend alot of time really finessing and carefully getting into all the channels and almost impossible areas to make sure everything is just right. Using dental tools, paint sticks with sandpaper taped on, whatever I have to do. This type of work is so particular that any information I can get on how to make that job easier is really appreciated. Pulling every rivet on the frame and replacing them wouldnt be all that hard considering. Since my first back operation in 03 I havent had much inclination to update the website, but I have tons of new information to put there. I have also offered to share whatever is there with this site as well. Thanks for the responses! I would love to see a video on someone working on a car or truck frame replacing rivets.
Guess this is what Ken was alluding to Deve, this first link that I posted CLEARLY shows a bracket with four (close to 3/8”) rivets being hot riveted to an automobile frame. Couldn’t be more descriptive if the guys were standing in your garage explaining it in person. The “labels” even explain that they are using a pneumatic bucking bar. Once again:
I can understand where you’re coming from Deve, cuz I like to think that I’m a purest, at least a 95% purest. If, I had to replace rivets in one of my frames, they would be as the factory had installed, definitely not Bolts unless bolts were used originally. I could have used machine screws when I reassembled my 1950, 3604 grill but I chose to do it like the factory did with semi-tubular rivets. http://www.pbase.com/dennygraham/1950_grill&page=all It cost a bit more than the $4.95 box of machine screws that most people use but I know what’s behind it and that’s what matters to me. To do your total frame restoration is gonna require you to invest a few hundred in equipment but if you spread that out over a few frames it doesn’t sound so unreasonable. That’s the way I look at the rivet equipment I’ve purchased.
Denny, like most amatuer videos, they make the mistake of assuming you have some sort of 6th sense in that there were NO shots of the bucking end of it. Looks great and makes the person doing the video feel like they did something for the cause.. and they certainly did, but unfortunately for a person who has never seen hot riveting, there is 50% of the process completely missing. The bucking end of it is the most important because what the hell is he using? Some sort of shaped anvil and the strength he can muster to just push against the rivet? (I saw the words 'air bucker' but two air tools then?) (VERY frustrating) I think probably so, and with the new information I have obtained from you and Grigg and others here, I can be at least a little more informed when I make the purchase plunge. I need to do it soon because I have a crossmember that needs to be riveted to a frame and I am ready for that. I also want to do the grilles the same way. I don't know about you, but the cost of riveting equipment is rather high for me, so mistakes in purchasing are out of the question requiring me to be VERY thoughtful before I just haul off and buy something (air hammer? air bucker?) that maybe is the right thing. Thanks again!
Deve - at 6 sec in you see the bucker, when they're in action you can see the 2nd guy moving it into place and getting on the handle, he's not using muscle, the bucker is an air tool that's doing pretty much what the air hammer is - maybe not real clear, but it's all there
"When we tug a single thing in nature, we find it attached to the rest of the world" ~ John Muir "When we tug a single thing on an old truck, we find it falls off" ~ me Some TF series details & TF heater pics
Lets not make a mountain out of a mole hill. Simply put...the guy standing inside the chassis rails has a tool called the Bucker. (which reminds me of a "porta-power"). He sticks the hot rivet through the hole, sets the bucker in place, hits the switch to make it push on the rivet...the other guy hammers it in. Then the guy inside the rails hits the release button and moves it to the next rivet and the two of them repeats the process again.....like Bill says, take a goood luck at 6 sec...
Also, it kinda looks like that porta-power bucker is backed up to the other frame rail? This quest is kind of like being a detective. This is the first clue that there is a second air tool to purchase and that would mean two sets of dies as well. I wonder what they would do if there was very limited space (a few inches) like one of the channels on an AD frame?
A bucking bar is used, as you all know, to supply holding power to the head of the rivet while the other end is being bucked. Confusing, right? Not really. The videos are extra informative because they show 3 different ways to hold the head. Video 1: A pneumatic or hydraulic "jack". Video 2: A pneumatic hammer. Video 3: Totally hand held big round bar pushed up against the head with human power. All seem to use a pneumatic hammer to upset the rivet. None of it is high tech. All if it is basic common sense. Looks like a lot of fun. I would highly recommend to some of those guys in the videos to wear eye protection. I can envision an over-center, adjustable (pinned, jack screw or sliding ratchet) clamp that goes from one side of the frame to the other (like the "jack"). This would meet the requirement for fast acting and could be home made. No extra air tool required for that bucker! Example of "over center": Truckers chain tensioner, but in reverse.
Right is right, even if everyone is against it, and wrong is wrong, even if everyone is for it. - William Penn
