The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area General Truck Talk setting the toe

I have a bent tie rod on my 47 1/2 ton which is causing tire wear. I recently had installed a used front axle with rebuilt king pins. I reused my drag link and tie rods because the axle i bought came out of a 53 suburban which used ball joints at all the connections for the drag link. My 47 is still stock without the ball joint connections. So what i am trying to achieve is to use the straight tie rod from the 53 axle and replace my bent tie rod on my 47.

I measured from the outside of the tread of my passanger tire to the outside of the tread of the driver side tire in front and got 62 1/4

I measured from the outside of the tread of the passanger tire to the outside of the tread of the driver side tire in the rear and got 61 1/8

I am measuring the front end with all the weight on the ground in my driveway and pulling the measurement from the middle of the height of the wheel. My tires are 16x 6.00 bias ply.

If anyone knows if i need to get this measurement more equal please feel free to let me know.

This is how I do it. Jack up the front end so you can spin the tires. Take a ice pick and holding it in a fixed postion against the tire make a line on the center of the tire by turning it one full turn. Do this on both tires, now you can measure the front and rear of the tires to get your toe-in. Sorry if this is a little long winded.

Yeah i understand that part. Thank you. Does the front need to be the same as the rear or does one side need to be more in or out than the other?

You measure as close to half way up the tire as you can. The front of the tire measurement should be about 1/8" shorter than the back of the tire. In other words you want just a tad of toe-in.

Thanks Tiny. That confirms what my cooky neighbor says

You're measuring it right, but I'm not sure on the measurement. The 1/8" sounds right but I usually try to set it close to even.

1/8" toe-in measured at the front would be fine.

1/16" to 3/16" is the specification.

Thanks tc i looked in the manual i was in the wrong area i did not find that page.

I replaced the bent tie rod that i had been driving on for just under a year now with a not so bent bent tie rod that i got with the axle. My shoulders were burning from backing out the old one. Man those threads are alot longer than one would think.

A little toe-in compensates for the tendency of the tires to toe out a little while rolling. Since it's impossible to get a rolling measurement, the 1/8" toed-in setting works about right. The tires are running as close as possible to straight ahead after the truck gets into motion.
Jerry

Is there a way to check the caster after the kingpins have been rebuilt, toe is set and in the truck without an alignment shop?

Can i use a 2' level to see that the wheel is plum?

Caster is the angle of the kingpin off vertical, and it's almost impossible to measure without some dedicated equipment, especially on a vehicle with a straight axle. Your carpenter's level will give you a ballpark guess at camber, not caster, but you'll need to fabricate a couple of extenders so you can hold it against the bead area of the rim at the top and bottom without touching the end of the spindle. It would take some pretty good trigonometry to convert the tilt of the bubble to a degree reading, although I've aligned a lot of race car front ends in the pits between races with a carpenter's level, a plumb bob, and a tape measure.
Jerry

I will leave that to the experts then. That is if they know how to align such a technically challenged vehicle

I believe the spec is a measurement (of toe-in) from the centered position (no toe-in or toe-out) of the tires relative to the spindle (center). So, IF the spec is 1/8" toe-in, then the difference from front of tire to back of tire should be double that measurement or 1/4". So, if the spec is 1/16" toe-in, then 1/8" difference front to back is right.

Checking caster, camber, and toe is easy, especially with the modern computer equipment with laser sensors that clamp onto the wheel rims. Making changes can be a little challenging, since most of the shops with axle-bending equipment either went out of business or scrapped their bending jigs years ago. Making equal caster changes to both sides is simple- - - -put a wedge between the spring and the axle. If one side needs tweaking, the axle needs to be twisted between the spring and the spindle, and that takes special jigs and big hydraulic jacks. Camber is changed by bending the spindle mount area of the axle up or down. A big I-beam, heavy chains, and 20-ton jacks get involved in that procedure. About the only adjustment most shops are willing to try to change is the toe setting.
Jerry

Toe-in is 1/8" only, not 1/4".

You can tell if caster is right by how it drives. All caster does it use the weight of the truck to hold the front tires straight. With little or none, you get a very loose sensation in the steering wheel, it just doesn't seem to want to go straight at higher speeds or return to center after making a corner. If you get to much, (4 or more degree) you end up lifting the whole front of the truck when trying to turn at slow speeds and after making a corner the wheel wants to center up to quickly.
If in doubt, add a 2 degree wedge and drive it awhile. I believe 2 is really common for straight axles setting at stock height. Wedge goes with thick part towards the rear of the truck.

It use to be easy to find 1 3/4" wide caster shims, but now you have to go specialty shops.
Here is a place that sells 4 degree wedges,
http://www.truckcomponentsonline.com/TRUCK-CASTER-SHIMS_c_316.html
Joe

Turns just fine and goes straight. I still would like to make sure all that is where it is supposed to be. I found an alignment shop that they said to bring it down and they can do it. The tech i spoke to said he has been doing alignments since 1969. Sounded confident and made my mind at ease.

I think the stock caster shims are 2 degrees.
More than 2 degrees is not recommended by GM.

lol this thread shook a lot old timers out.

Thanks to everyone for the good information, I'll be adding shims to mine soon.

If others hadn't seen, Performance Online has them in 2 degree increments.

http://www.performanceonline.com/FO...d-TRUCK-FRONT-and-REAR-AXLE-SHIMS-16851/

So, this means that you want a 1/4" difference from front to rear of tire. 1/8" toe-in on front of tire, means 1/8" toe-out at rear of tire. Or, 1/8" front plus 1/8" rear equals 1/4"

NO-NO-NO-NO-NO!

The front measurement needs to be 1/8" less than the rear!
Jerry

Then that means 1/16" toe-in. The point I am trying to make is that if you say the toe-in setting is 1/16", then you need to double the spec when measuring dimensional difference between front and rear of tire.

Are you saying that EACH tire toes in 1/16"?

NO NO NO NO NO NO NO............

Measure the rear of the tires half way up, measure the front at the same hight, the front will be 1/8" less.

As an example, rear measurement is 58", then front will be 57 7/8", 1/8" less.

If you could measure the exact center of the tires, then you would have 1/16" more in the rear and 1/16" less in the front, but finding the center is not needed or practical.

Be sure to roll the truck backwards at least one to two tire rotations, then forward the same amount before measuring. This removes any minor play in the tie-rods and suspension ( its as close to as driven as you can get).

Joe

This whole thing is getting a lot more complicated than it needs to be, or is for that fact. Trying to figure out how much toe in each individual tire has only muddies the water and makes it more difficult for someone who doesn't know (usually the original poster) to weed out the correct information.

Indivudual toe settings really don't come into play until you get into an IFS system. Old solid axle suspension really only needs the total toe dimension, which in this case is 1/8" toe in.

Since there's only one adjusting sleeve on a stovebolt tie rod, individual toe-in is a moot point. Getting anal about adjustments is for the guys with the $30,000.00 Hunter laser alignment machines that read out in 1/100" inch increments anyway! Those super-accurate digital readouts are just to impress the customers!
Jerry

They're closer to $60,000 now, and laser aligners are obsolete. IR camera aligners are the current technology, easier to work with and far more accurate. I don't get anal about the measurements, though. Im more concerned with getting the wheel straight, and elimanting tire wear. Hawkeye Elite.

Thank you for all your answers. The majority vote seems to be 1/8" toe in on a solid axle. Not to sound like a jerk but go debate whos is bigger elsewhere. I just was looking for advise and it was answered on the first page. Thanks to all who contributed.

Forgive the old timers!! They mean well and one cannot help being "that way" when getting up in years. Believe me I know!!! Besides, their wealth of info and willingness to share is worth any "delivery". Let em haggle- it's intertaining and we all learn a bunch!!! Keep it up guys, but try and keep it simple for us less informed!!! Love ya-mean it!!

If you want to put it all in perspective, jack up the right front wheel and try turning it from side to side. It makes one wonder how measurements as small as 1/8" are even relevant!

OK, figure out the next one on your own! I'll keep my 50+ years of experience to myself!
Jerry

Well looks like 5/8 ton failed in his attempt to not sound like a jerk. I'll be careful not to get involved answering any of his questions in the future.
Cletus, you might want to close this one out.

Okay, I can't help it - I've got to throw my 2 cents in too....

Sears checks it for free - they only charge for adjustments.

The End.

Sorry to keep it going but get one 1/8 in off & feel the difference in driving. Get it 1/4 in. off & you can ruin 2 tires in 1000 miles or so.

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