The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Engine Shop My biggest disappointment of the day.

Well after sitting in pieces for two years I finally found the time for an all out effort over the past month or so at getting the old gal back on the road. Fresh trans rebuild, fresh engine rebuild by a marine/racing engine rebuilder, fresh spring rebuild, fresh chem striped front clip (less hood) and everything else all rebuilt within a few thousand miles, I.e., spindles, steering links and gear, wheel brgs, brakes, drive line, rear axle .
I got her up to this point yesterday, just have to get the grill and outer fenders back on:
http://www.pbase.com/dennygraham/image/137873175/large
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After being completely torn down and not running for two years I had my reputation on the line when I told my “big old wife” that it was gonna start on the first try. I’d topped of the battery charge the night before, filled it with brake in oil, drained what was left of the two year old gas adding a couple of gallons of fresh BP. I’m the eternal pessimist so anticipating some sort of problem which always pops up with this sort of work, I just refilled the cooling system with distilled water, no antifreeze yet.
I cranked her over a couple of times with the key off to bring fresh fuel up thru the new lines filters and new fuel/vacuum pump I’d installed. When I got fuel to the sedament bowl at the carburetor on went the ignition, out came the choke and the moment of truth was at hand. And thank the Lordy, she popped of first turn over, I could hold my head up and stick out my chest at the dinner table tonight.
I ran her for a few minutes at about 2000rpm to make sure I was oiling the cylinder walls and then I noticed a puddle on the floor under the axle. She just had time to get the block luke warm and now the image of coming to the dinner table with my tail between my legs was manifesting itself.
Yep, a water leak, with all the care and time I’d put into assembling the engine on the stand and now a water leak.
Leaking at:
http://www.pbase.com/dennygraham/image/137872156/large
So as soon as I finish with to days novel I’m out to the garage to pull the radiator and water pump to see what the problem is. Here I was going to take her for a break in run in the county this morning and in stead I’ll be spending the day taking her apart.
What a disappointment!

Denny Graham
Sandwich, IL

"Here I was going to take her for a break in run in the county this morning and in stead I’ll be spending the day taking her apart."

And that is the real problem Sir, you went from your usual pessimistic self to anticipation and optimism... it was a shock to your system. Keep your chin(s) up.

Seriously Denny, your have done an outstanding job on this old beauty and we are all so happy to have followed along with the progress. This minor bump will soon be forgotten as all is well that ends well.

What's even more discouraging Dave, is when you can't see any signs of a leak or
reason for a leak after the water pump is removed. The gasket looks solid as can
be, I was hoping to find a crease or piece of string caught in that corner.
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I don't even want to think about the other possibility but it certainly is there. I used
a Fel-Pro fiber head gasket and the only thing I did different that I’ve never done
before is to use Permatex 101MA Copper Spray-A-Gasket on this engine. I treated
both sides of the head gasket with it. I stoned the deck and head surface for any
high spots and checked them both with a precision straight edged for flatness:
http://www.pbase.com/dennygraham/image/137878375/large
About the only way I’ll be able to tell if that’s my problem is to do a meticulous cleaning
and re-install of the water pump and if I still have the same leak I think I’ll just head
out to the tavern for the rest of the week.

DG

Had the same problem with a 262 six in a 1962 F600 Ford Truck after I had the engine rebuilt. It was the head gasket. Before I went through all the work of replacing the head gasket, I retorqued the head. Solved the leak!!!! Give it a try.
Rick G.

Denny, we have all been there. Remember my problem with the m/c...or the wing vent frame.....or centering the rear axle...or
I'm sure you get my point. BUT take a few minutes and see all the GOOD stuff you have done and how much you have educatted a lot of us. THEN head out to the tavern I promise, things aren't as bad as they seem. You will divide and conquer or your not Denny Graham!!
Hey, take the weekend off and come to Kansas.....haw, Denny will HAVE to figure this one out before he does anything.
Am I right?

Denny, you put some sealer on the bolts didn't you?

It's not your thermostat housing, is it Denny? I've chased a couple leaks on mine and it seems like that water can just seep along a crevice or groove and not be noticed before finding a place to pool up and drip. I thought my pump was leaking too, but it ended up being a real slight weep at the hose that was barely noticeable till it dripped from under the pulley.

Bob

P.S. There's always Bar's Leak

First thing I thought of Rick, rechecked the water pump bolts and critiqued the head
all with in 10min of starting the engine.
Bolts bottom into blind holes Alvin, checked them to the bottom with a cotton swab,
they were as dried out as I am. No KC fo me this year, had really planned on it but
with the economy being what it is and my big old wife didn’t take my retirement out
of the market till it lost all it had gained back. Boy I wish I knew something bout
money cept how to spend it.
Hi Bob, hope you got your’s on the circuit this summer, she’s much to nice to keep
cooped up in that basement people need to see how it should be done. No it was
below the thermostat housing, just a steady little dribble right from where I put
the pointer. I’d wipe it off and the trickle would be right back immediately. It was
following the seam right at the corner. Wish it were, a hose, that’s where I expected
I might have a problem and that’s why I only filled it with plain water yesterday,
glad I did that now.
I’m just really bummed out today and I really, REALLY hate to think about tearing
the whole motor apart. Can’t for the life of me figure what I could have missed cuz
I was so dang meticulous about how I put it together. Spent a week assembling the
short block out in the open on the engine stand. After all, it was supposed to be able
to handle the Alaskan highway next year.
Haven’t been able to get my self up to going out and cleaning up the pump and block
this afternoon, but I guess I’d better get to it. As much as I hate to think about it, my
bet now is on my spending the rest of the week and weekend tearing every thing apart
that I just spent the last month putting together.
Thanks for the comments guys, just needed some support though. There really are only
two places that it could be coming from and I'm pretty much convinced that the first one
has been eliminated.
DG

Oh yeah, I forgot to say that my day is complete, pulling the lower bolts out of the
Pump I leaned my forearm up against the 100w trouble light and now have an arm
Full of Benadryl, that taint working so good so next I’ll try some Anbesol to get
me thru the night and about three or four beers before I turn in.

Denny, I can appreciate your frustration. I try to do everything well the first time and hate re-doing things but it has happened to me a few times too. If I leave it alone for a few days or work on something else for a while it doesn't seem so bad to come back to it. After all, these are just mechanical devices and they can be repaired or rebuilt. You have proved that many times with all the parts you have reproduced.

Chuck

100 watt drop light...ouch. Been there and thats why I switched to flourescent work lights years ago. Just be glad it wasn't on of those little bitty bulb super hot, so darn hot you can solder with it thingy's. I threw 2 of them away. Where is OSHA when you REALLY need them

I second the re-torquing of the head, if not already done.

Denny, I had another thought.
You could bolt a plate across where the pump bolts and thermostat housing bolts and pressure test the head gasket through the temp sender port.

Sorry Dave, must have hit the wrong button when I posted this above after lunch, here‘s the correction: “First thing I thought of Rick, rechecked the water pump bolts and re-torqued the head all within 10min of starting the engine.”

Yeah, I was thinking of something like that also. I've got one more idea before I think about tearing the motor down. I put the water pump back on tonight and will refill it tomorrow and give it another try. The the pump and bolts were on the engine before I tore it down to have the shortblock rebuilt and I ran it for about 7-8K without any problems. I had replaced the original bolts with SS that I had in stock. At supper the thought hit me to check the length of the bolts. I did find that the top bolts bottom out right at the thickness of the casting. One was a tad longer than the other and I might have gotten lucky the first time round several years ago and switched them when I put it back together this last time. I took them down to the lathe and removed 1/8" of the ends of them. I don't think this would cause the problem though because the leak was on the side that is space out with the generator bracket so it shouldn't have hit the bottom of the hole.
I'll find out in the morning, wish me luck.
DG

Good luck Denny and if it don't work "kick the cat"! Better yet pick it up and stroke it a few times. Maybe it'll bring you GOOD luck.
(perhaps there was just enough difference in the threads of the SS vs the others to let the water by?) Heck, I"m just guessing to.

No water on the threads of the water pump bolts Alvin, they, all four of them, go into blind holes.
Gonna head out as soon as I finish my coffee and start to fill it again.
As a side note to this. This was a freshly rebuilt motor that had been completely degreased (baked out) and bead blasted before the machine work was done to it. So the inside of the water jackets were fresh raw cast iron. It had plain distilled water in it for no more than a few hours yet when I pulled the pump there was a nice orange film of rust already forming inside the water jacket and the water was tinted very slightly orange if held up to a light. That's a dang good example of how fast these blocks will rust without a rust inhibiter in the mix.
Denny Graham
Sandwich, IL

You've likely already thought of this, and I'm not too sure if it's possible or not, but you might check the flatness of the pump and backing plate to see if it might be slightly warped. I don't think I have ever seen that happen, but couldn't hurt to double check it.

I don' know about the copper spray on sealant on the fiber head gasket, but can't see it causing any problems.

All is cool in the Graham household this afternoon. Taking an 1/8" off the length of the top bolts did the trick. Now that I am aware of it and made some measurements I see that they were right on the border line length wise. the two top bolt holes in the block were slightly different in depth and the two bolts were slightly different in length so apparently I got lucky the first time a few thousand miles ago when I put the new pump on but must have switch the bolts this time round. The one on the right was short enough but the one on the left was bottoming out right at the point were the lock washer was fully collapsed but just wouldn‘t put quite enough pressure to fully collapse the gasket. .

But thank god I didn't have to tear into the motor. I just got back from a 75mile loop out in the country to the west of me. No problems what so ever. I just static timed the distributor and valve adjustment when I installed it and she ran just fine on her maiden voyage. While she was good and hot I went over the valves with the engine running. All were a bit tight even though I had adjusted them cold on the high side.

So bottom line is- Mechanicals all done, now I can move on to finishing up the fenders and grill and maybe get the hood stripped and painted before fall sets in. That will be all the body done from the firewall forward. Bed and doors comes off over this winter and next winter when I’ve got a few months that I can’t drive it, maybe I’ll pull the cab and finish filling in the whole picture.

Thanks for all the comments guys.

Denny Graham
Sandwich, IL

That's good news Denny, sounds like a reasonably easy fix for you.
Sure beats tearing into a freshly built motor!(Been there,done that...) :mad:

Mind you from what I've gathered about you over the months/years is that you're obviously a meticulous and thorough type of guy.

It just had to be something simple.....thank goodness!

P.S I'm also glad you didn't have to resort to Alvins suggestion about the cat!

Yeah, I'm sure gonna sleep easy tonight. Sometimes the simplest things can cause the biggest problems. I originally use some 2" SS bolts that I had in stock and thought they were close enough to the originals to work. GM used some really odd off standard fastener lengths. I was reassembling the front end last week and the six 5/16" x 3/4" hex head lag screws that attach the lower baffel to the front of the inner skirt were a bit to rusty for my liking. I went on the search for some and never did find any. All the suppliers stock 1" but that's the shortest I could find.

Denny Graham
Sandwich, IL