The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Engine Shop No zinc in oil since 2005...problems??

Over the past several weeks/months I have been watching a fellow I know build his 550HP 350 engine for his Camaro. Wednesday I went by the shop and he showed me the camshaft with a lobe worn almost round. He was using flat soild lifters and a lifter was dished out REAL bad. He, and some others, are saying its because the oil he used (Pennzoil) has no Zinc, (and magnesium I think was the other additive) and that is what caused the failure. Supposedly this has been the case since 2005. The guy who owns the shop then showed me a bulletin that says due to this that a camshaft/lifter can be ruined within minutes of actual start up. This guy then tells me he has called Summit Racing and Summit says they are getting 10-15 calls per day about the same situation. I looked at all the cam lobes and lifters and somthing just seems fishy to me? Nevertheless the bulletin says that because of this the engine should have been started up and ran some using Rotella "T" oil. I know we have some "chemical" guys who visit here and I'm wondering what the REAL scoop is? I will ask to see the bulletin again and let you guys know where it came from. I know oil has been changed but I have heard any claims as this. Have any of you guys?

yes, read about it here - more than just an oil formula problem, may be a low quality tappet as well other things involved .... time for rollers

Bill

I've always been told that the current API rating was retro active, and that it would meet or exeed the requirements of the older oil rating. Personally, I'm suspect of poor camshaft quality, rather than any oil problems. Seems convenient that the cam companies blame failures on an "oil additive" problem than admitting to a manufacturing issue. I'm running Valvoline 30wt Super HPO, made after 2005, with no issues at all with the cam. I'm running a Howard M4F 3/4 race cam from Patrick's. It's a solid lifter flat tappet cam, set at proper clearances. The only problem I've had was one pushrod that the end came apart on, other than that-no problems.
I think the real trick is to do proper break in, and follow up with regular oil changes as specified by the vehicle manufacturer.

Yes it is a problem with the oil. Read the article red58 posted. Solid lifter cams need zinc additives for the proper break in. There developed a problem with the additive (ZDDP) ruining catalytic converters, resulting in warranty claims. So the solution was for auto manufacturers to convince the oil companies that the additives are no longer needed since today's cars use roller cams. Screw you hobbyists who use flat tappet cams.

Oils formulated for diesel use, like Rotella, still contain some zinc for now. GM and some cam companies also sell a break-in additive. Also, there was an additive called Street Legal Oil Booster by CD-2 that is high in ZDDP. It has apparently been pulled off the market but it was being found in Big Lots stores.

I see. Any reports on using synthetic oil? Like maybe Royal Purple? Or possibly an additive like Lucas?

I'm using Rotella I change it every 2000 miles... Peter

I hate to admit it as I am usually "up" on most of this stuff. I probably was at one time. I think I will claim CRS.
I suspect the same as some of you. These guys I'm talking about usually "know their stuff". I am highly suspious of one being real tight? None of the others show any kind of wear. I was even thinking maybe a lifter that got past the "go...no go" test when made and it was to big? Anyway, I appreciate all the info...BUT does all this mean that AFTER break in you should be OK? Something still doesn't smell right yet....but hey, look who we have to deal with. Those who at best usually only tell some version of the truth if it effects their pocketbook.

chip - 2 things - that article talks about lifter bore clearance - that engine might have had one lifter that was sloppy - also it does sound to me like the metal does get 'impregnated' w/ ZDDP with an initial period of use

Bill

I'm the guy that has droped a valve in 4 cases on a 350 chevy in a 1 ton.In all previous 3, valve seat gave up. Haven't torn present engine down yet. In one case a lobe on cam completley round and the lifter dished. This is an engine every 16 to 18 months. I do work my truck as with all my tools. I've always used Penzoil 30. Any body think I'm working the engine to hard and should I change to Rotella and or gas addative?

I just cranked my freshly rebuilt 235 yesterday and have been reading up on everything I could find about the initial break-in for flat tappet cams. My builder recommended GM EOS used as an additive with good quality 10-30 oil as I'm not running a rumpy cam or heavy springs. After 300 miles switch to Rotella 15-40 API Cl, Cl-plus. He used the GM cam and lifter suppliment during assembly and I spun the oil pump to charge the full-flow filter and build initial line pressure. Popped in the distributor and spun the engine with out plugs to verify oil pressure. A shot of wd40 for the Gapless 2 rings.... plugs in and it fired right up. He recommended 12-1500 for 20 minutes. Oil pressure at 45-50, oil temp was 180 at the end of initial run in.

Pennzoil sells a Cl, Cl-plus oil in gallon jugs at tractor supply @ $11.88. The 2 gallon Rotella T, Cl,Cl-plus bulk jugs @ $39.00. Noted that NOT ALL Rotella T 15-40 carries the API Cl, CL-4 rating. The WalMart stuff didn't!!!! Gotta read the fine print!!!

Don't want to open a can of worms but I will use a 1/2 shot (1-pint) of Lucas Oil Suppliment to the 15-40. Can't do any harm.

Dave

Just curious, was the flat cam lobe at the end of the cam at the back of the engine ?

I did some askin around when I was beefing up the motor for my lil car, & was reccomended the GM EOM stuff many times from people that build monster motors with serious cams, it has a very high Zinc content for just this purpose.
In that particular market poor cam surface quality is an issue when breaking in new parts, many of em swear by it and when I broke in my last rebuild it worked great.
sed it as assembly lube, then poured the rest of the quart in the engine & topped it off with my favorite oil.

When rebuilding my 261, I took the advice of many others and used the GM EOS supplement as an assembly lube. Then, when I was ready to start it, I dumped the rest of the EOS in the crankcase and included a quart of Lucas oil. Then filled the rest of the crankcase with Valvoline straight 30 wt oil which supposedly had more zinc than other oils. Now that the break-in is done, I think that I'll also add some Lucas and possibly the EOS stuff to the Castrol 20-50 GTX I favor. Hopefully, with the few miles I put on the truck each year, it'll outlast me.

Sounds like we need vitamin supplements for our bolts too now? What's next?

The Pontiac websites are talking about this too. The Pontiacs run over 350# pressure "over the nose" on a performance flat tappet cam like the RAIV grind. I've started using the STP ZDDP additive in my LeMans and Bel-Air. Some guys are using the Rotella diesel oil, EOS, or other racing oils with zinc additive package.

If there's any lifter bore problems on a high output engine and the lifter doesn't spin properly, it will trash the cam immediately, especially on "cheap' cams. Also, flat cams aren't a new problem (since 2005), remember the small blocks of the 70's?
Scott

TimK: I do not know the exact cylinder # but the lobe that was round was about midway from the middle toward the front of engine. Just for what its worth I also used the GM EOS in my engine back around the end of 1999. Still running smooth. Good stuff.

The 305 and 307 engines in the '70s had bad cams. The cams weren't parkerized properly, so they wore out really fast.

Its hard to diagnose any engine over the computer screen. I would say that the majority of cam failure is due to improper parts selection or assembly or break-in. Beyond that, I have seen tale of a few properly-done cams that went "flat" for no good reason. In those cases, the lubricants were blamed. FWIW.

Roger that on the diesel spec Rotella oil. I use it and insist that friends use it on all non-roller cam engines. You will always find examples of people who beat the odds, but the zinc conmtent increases your margin of protection during extreme wear conditions, such as cold-start-up. The Zinc content of typical passenger car spec oils has gone down considerably since the 70's. As for royal purple and other synthetics, break your engine in first, then if you want to move to synthetics, fine. Still if you have a non-roller camshaft, use zinc additives or Rotella diesel (hi-zinc) spec oils to be safe. Class racers that must use flat tappets are pretty familiar with this topic.
mv

Yes it's true. Hot Rod had a very descriptive article on it last year. It is because the oil companies are aligning their formulations to modern engines with roller cams, that do not require ZDDP. It's also cheaper for them to produce. It's also because they are caving to pressure from the big three because ZDDP is supposed to shorten the lifespan of catalytic converters, and they're trying to make cars to pass emissions for the life of the vehicle.

For you guys with flat tappet cams, you either should break in your engines with diesel oil, like 15W40 Shell Rotella, or use racing oil if you want lighter weight, because they have plenty of ZDDP. You can also go to a GM parts counter and buy an additive that adds ZDDP to your store-bought oil.

I read that Shell Rotella will stop putting ZDDP in their oil too, as diesel engine technology improves; but I don't know how soon that is.

I am building a 305 with a hydraulic flat tappet cam and although I used to break in engines with straight 30-weight oil, I think I will use Shell Rotella to break in this one, just to avoid problems.

Is it specfic Rotella oil that has the stuff and is it/or will it be ok to run in my 53 3100 with 3000 miles on it. I need to know what to buy, I'm also getting ready to buyanother 350 for my work truck and is this the oil I should run in it?

Fellows, I am NOT sure about this but a short time ago I did hear something in the parts store about the disel oil WOULD BE DIFFERENT but can't remember the date ....also the "old" stuff may still be available but probably at a higher price. I just want to suggest to everyone, and I know you guys will do this, but be SURE what you are getting and don't just go grab a quart or gallon and not get what you think your getting. I still delivering parts part time and do remember it being discussed in the store. I'll follow up on this if I can tomorrow. As I mentioned early on here I usually try to stay up on this stuff but when you don't need it for a while things change without realizing it. I have learned a lot here and thanks. Hopefully it will help someone avoid a major catastrophy. Isn't the Stovebolt great!

Let me ask this question of the experts. Kind of like the end of leaded gas, if the old oil has been run in an engine for 50 years, will it really hurt the engine to switch on something that gets limited drive time? It would seem that all the zinc you could ever need is deposited all over the parts of the engine needing oil.

Just a thought. On the converse I do add a lead additive every three years or so.