The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Engine Shop Does anyone ever unstick and rebuild engines?

Hello!

I've been reading posts for a few months, both here and on a few other boards, and it seems that an engine that's stuck from sitting is usually considered a lost cause.

My other hobby is restoring hit/miss farm engines, and most collectors think NOTHING of unsticking an engine that's been locked up for 20+ years. I personally freed up a LeRoi power unit that hadn't been turned since the early 60s. It was a BEAR to get free, but after a good hone and new rings, it now runs like a top.

Granted, it's usually 1 cyl vs 6, and those engines run at much lower rpms, but my experience with most engines has been that most engines are NOT that hard to get unstuck, and can usually be returned to reliable service with a little bit of work.

Does anyone share my opinion regarding stuck engines, or do most people consider them scrap?

Just wondering.

Chris

I've done it lots. Only folks that don't know mechanics would think that.

I've been trying to free up a stuck 216 and I'm not having much luck. It sat for 20+ years in a barn. I've been filling up the plug holes with ATF and Acetone for the past few weeks and I haven't had any luck getting the engine to even wiggle.

Unstuck my 216 last year (it sat unused for 30+ years), lots of mystery oil down the plug holes and patience working the pistons free. You can do it, just take your time.

Once the engine is freed up, it's necessary to take a close look at how bad the rust pits are. Quite often, a rebore or a sleeve or two will be needed to correct the rust pitting. Just making it run is one thing- - - - -doing it right is another kettle of fish, occasionally. Cast iron pistons in older 216's can get stuck really tight, while aluminum piston engines free up a lot easier.
Jerry

I've unstuck my share of old engines and got them running again, it can be fun and rewarding.

But a stovebolt.... they're not that rare or uncommon at all, so unless that particular engine has some significance to you or you just like the challenge why not spend less time, effort, and money on an engine in better shape to start with?
Sure try it, but don't get in to deep when better engines are still available and cheap.

Grigg

My 216 was stuck when I bought it. I am assembling it right now with the help of the good people on this forum.

It took a couple of weeks to unsieze. Each night I sprayed "liquid wrench" into each cylinder and let it soak in. Each day I pounded each piston with a 2x2 and a large hammer. After a couple weeks I started to get some movement. A couple more days and the crank was moving.

There is some corrosion on the cylinders and crank, but I am not prepared to have this engine rebuilt. I hope it will run, but I don't expect it to run well.

I was given a lawn tractor w/a stuck two cylinder Briggs, after a soak w/Marvel it freed up & I used it for years before selling it.

My 216 sat outside with the head removed in the damp Oregon winters for 2 years although the oil pan plug was removed. After a couple days of soaking with PB Blaster it freed right up using a single jack and a block of 2X4. After cleaning up the cylinder walls a little the and putting the head on, adjusting valves etc.., it fired right up and runs great! I wouldnt even think of discarding a stovebolt motor because it is stuck...stuck means nothing to these old iron beasts.

Also take into account the wrist pins, push rods, main bearings, and bearings at the crank. Lubricate everything that moves.

"There is some corrosion on the cylinders and crank, but I am not prepared to have this engine rebuilt. I hope it will run, but I don't expect it to run well."

What do you suppose the result will be of all those rough surfaces grinding against each other?

Those rough surfaces will be clean in a jiffy!

I expect the corrosion to be washed away quickly with friction and oil. I expect the surficial pitting to become smooth over time as the remaining surface becomes worn.

I spent many hours cleaning the engine, and I did my best effort. Do you recommend that I invest perhaps thousands of dollars in machine work on a 216?

I choose to clean and reassemble it instead. I'm super excited to see this run.

mix some acetone or auto paint thinner
with your mmo it works . philip

Of all the subjects that come up on this forum, this is the one that I find most interesting to read. In the past when the subject of "unsticking" an engine came up I had only my imagination to visualize what might be inside that engine causing it to "stick".

Stove's pictures illustrate the actual conditions inside.

I'm NOT a professional mechanic so I'm not qualified to have ANY opinion on this subject. I have only questions.

If a cross hatch hone pattern of a certain angle and texture is required on cylinder walls to allow rings to seat, how will rings seat on that rough, irregular, pitted cylinder wall surface. Will they ever seat? How will that affect compression and oil control? How will it affect the life span of the rings?

What will happen to the soft babbet main and rod bearing material when it is rubbed under high loads against the rough and much harder crankshaft journals?

Presumably the lifter bores, camshaft lobes and bases of the lifters are in the same rust-damaged condition. What will happen to those contact surfaces, especially considering the absence of oil additives to protect flat tappet camshafts in oils offered today because most engines in current production have roller tappet camshafts? Will those rough surfaces interfere with rotation of the lifters that is an essential part of flat tappet function or will the lifters fail to rotate and wipe out the camshaft lobes?

Again, I'm no expert, just an interested amateur. To me this will be an interesting experiment and I'm very interested in knowing what the outcome will be.

I think most people run them like this until those issues show up and then rebuild their happily unstuck engine...

Maybe...its really hard to say. Usually the crank, cam, bearings etc. are heavily coated with a thick layer of black sludge oily build up. Mine sat since 1972 and was stuck when I got it. After getting it unstuck inspection showed that the cylinder walls were the only surface that took the abuse...No rust in the bottom end at all.

There's stuck, as in rings rusted to the cylinder walls, and maybe a few pits and rough spots at one place on a few cylinders, and then there's STUCK where the entire engine is a mass of rust. The second situation makes it a boat anchor, not an engine. Even some of those worst-case engines are salvageable with enough time, effort and money, but it takes a total rebuild for them. A little common sense should allow someone with a few brain cells to rub together to tell the difference.

Any engine that's not pickled for long-term storage by filling the cylinders with preservative oil, filling the crankcase to overflowing with the same stuff, and plugging the intake and exhaust systems or loosening all the rocker arm adjustments is going to stop with at least a few valves open to the atmosphere. The cylinders with open valves are going to be prone to rust just from the movement of air and humidity in and out of the cylinders from thermal expansion. The longer the engine sits idle, and the more humid the climate is, the quicker and more severely the cylinders will rust. An engine parked in the Mojave desert for 10 years is going to survive better than one parked for six months on a waterfront pier in San Francisco. I have been very successful at reclaiming some pretty badly seized engines, but I'm not going to pretend they ran as well, or lasted as long as a top-to-bottom restoration job. They have given a pretty good account of themselves to the kind of people who don't insist on getting totally anal about a concours restoration of an old clunker.
Jerry

"I have been very successful at reclaiming some pretty badly seized engines, but I'm not going to pretend they ran as well, or lasted as long as a top-to-bottom restoration job."

Jerry, do you think the engine shown in these pictures will run OK and reliably if it is assembled as is or does it require a rebore, crankshaft regrind, valve job, etc?

I'm trying to see it from the owner's point of view, considering the cost of a full gasket set and labor to do the assembly and installation and maybe having to do it twice.

I hear of guys with those engines taking them to recycling yards because they can't even give them away. In that case there might be a better core for him to start with. I spoke with an old guy from the Oakland California area who had been in the auto repair business for decades. When he retired recently he told me he had about 20 of these engine cores he put in the local advertizing paper as freebies and in the end he had to load them up with a forklift and take them to a metal recycling facility.

Have you considered that you may have a stuck clutch? Maybe it's time to pull the truck with a tractor or another truck, that's worked for me!

Wow. Never thought that so many people would chime in on this one, but I'm glad that they did.

Although I'm not a grizzled old mechanic with 40+ years of experience, I have torn down more than a few engines of all types, including 2 stroke single cyl engines, hit/miss farm engines, lawn mower engines, and more than a few car engines. From what I've seen, most people would be astounded by the internal conditions of some running engines. My first smallblock rebuild had a #2 main bearing that looked like shredded wheat, but it ran well, had full oil pressure, and no noises at all. While a stuck engine may not look very good on the inside, many of them will run despite pits in the cylinder walls, loose bearings, etc.

I'd like to hear what others have found when they disassembled a running engine.

Chris

Last month I unstuck a GMC 248 straight six that was froze solid. It's been sitting outside this guys back yard in Auburn, CA for 18+ years. The only protection it had was a one gallon bucket sitting over the carburetor. I soaked each cylinder with tranny fluid for about a week and got it to budge and kept working back and forth 'til it would rotate freely. I could feel the compression on the spark plug holes and knew it would run. After replacing the fuel pump, starter, distributor, carburetor, I dropped the pan and scraped out the sludge, gave it some fresh oil. Added a radiator, coil, battery and played with it for a few more days and got it to run! I can't tell you how exciting that is waking up a motor like that. Here it is running CLICK. Needs a little more tweeking. I'm just gonna run it and use it for what it's worth.

Very interesting guys, as I just got a stuck motor myself, very interesting.

The only picture I've found so far shows a bare block, with very little detail about the condition of the cylinder walls. Are there others posted somewhere? Once an engine is torn down to the point that one is, my advice would be to go ahead with a complete rebuild rather than reassemble it with used parts. If I can get a stuck engine to turn freely with a reasonable amount of effort, and the compression tests fair to good on all cylinders, it's worth a try to get it running and see how well it performs. Once a rehab gets beyond the point of removing the cylinder head and inspecting the condition of the cylinders, there's not much point in reassembling the engine without new parts. If a valve job gets done while the head is off, no problem there. Used piston rings in particular don't take kindly to being removed and replaced, even if they go back into the cylinder they came out of. Connecting rod and main bearings don't seem to have much of a problem with dissassembly/reassembly as long as they're not moved around from one place to another.

The biggest problem with ressurecting an engine after long-term inactivity is deciding when to stop tinkering and do the full rehab. My personal stopping point is usually doing a valve job and replacing easily-accessible gaskets like the oil pan, valve cover, side cover, and maybe front and rear oil seals. Once the pistons, camshaft and/or crankshaft need to be removed, it's full overhaul time.
Jerry

I agree with that,
If an engine is only slightly stuck might as well unstick it and give it a try.
If it's severe it better be a special engine before you spend all the time and money necessary to unstick it and get it running and reliable again.

Here's an example of a throughly stuck engine
http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2932163260080251109xpcYHW
But one that could be made to run again... I decided not on my budget though..

Grigg

Jerry, I had a senior moment and confused two topics. My mistake!

Stove posted pictures under the topic "Piston Installation" and that one has a bunch of pictures of parts removed from a severely rust damaged engine. It's this one: https://www.stovebolt.com/ubbthread...lat&Number=747501&gonew=1#UNREAD

I found those pictures interesting because up until that point I had never actually seen how bad some parts are that people are actually considering reusing. It's as though some people have never heard of cylinder reboring, crankshaft regrinding and cylinder head reconditioning.

I've only restored one Stovebolt, a '36 Chevy pickup. Fully reconditioning the engine was the least of the challenges. The big challenge was replacing rusted out body parts and straightening the body without bondo. The pickup box looked like a sack full of rocks at first and I went through a few cylinders of oxygen and acetylene shrinking out all those dents!

The firewall here at school filters out virtually all pictures, so I can't comment on the ones you mention. My personal rule of thumb is this: If I can hang a fingernail in a rust pit, it's probably too deep to run a piston ring over it without getting blowby and/or oil consumption. Slightly rough or discolored spots, while not ideal, are usually acceptable as long as there's not a large area that's affected. Crankshafts- - - -minor pits or low spots, no real problem, as long as the journal is round and not over .001" under the specified diameter. For instance, I'll reassemble a .011" undersize (round) rod or main bearing, using new bearing shells. More than .001" out of round on a rod or main journal needs a regrind, regardless of diameter. Ditto for taper- - - -slightly undersized but straight from side to side is OK, bigger on one side than the other, regrind it. Deep scoring or roughness on any crankshaft journal- - - -regrind or replace!

Taper wear in cylinders- - - - -.005" MAXIMUM! A piston ring that has to expand and contract constantly can't keep a good seal with the cylinder wall, and it loses its spring tension in a hurry. If a couple of thousandths of taper can be honed out to straighten the cylinder walls, and the piston skirts knurled to reestablish the proper skirt clearance, OK, but do a very good cleanup with hot soapy water and a scrub brush after honing.

Reassemble or machine- - - -that's a judgement call that comes with years of experience and hundreds or thousands of engines inspected- - - -no substitute for experience!
Jerry

Since you like pics, here are a few more! I will continue to post pictures as the engine progresses, since there seems to be some interest.

You must realize that I am planning to haul dirt, drywall, and whatnot. I'm not planning to drive in a parade. If the engine runs acceptably as-is, to me it seems crazy to have it rebuilt. Of course I have no idea how it runs because it was seized when I bought it.

The assembly process so far has been thoroughly enjoyable. This is way more fun than dis-assembly and cleaning. My day is spent looking forward to spending time with the engine, and I find it interesting to see and understand how the engine works.

Rod bearing

Camshaft

Valve seat

Valves

I would strongly suggest locating a backup engine- - - -soon. The camshaft and cylinder head both have serious issues, ones which will have you going back into the engine before long. Also, read up on the proper way to check and adjust the oil clearance on the connecting rods. It's a very critical part of the reassembly procedure on a splash-oiler engine. If you get six months of intermittent use out of that engine, that should be about all you can reasonably expect.
Jerry

I'm disappointed to learn that. I am probably responsible for some of the corrosion - the engine has been sitting disassembled for perhaps 8 years.

On the bright side, it sounds like I can expect this to run!

hey chris

i've got a froze 235 myself. where and how did you apply the bottle jack? at the flywheel? i've heard a lot of people say they have freed up engines, but not how they did it precisely. i've had diesel fuel in the crankcase and cylinders for 3 weeks now. also, the emergency brake was set about 50 years ago, so, my back brakes are locked to. any ideas? thanx

Cast iron will offer up a challenge when the engine is 'locked-up'. The method I have used and have had good results starts at the flywheel/teeth. Select that big ugly screw driver with the damaged tip as the pry bar. Insert the tip into a tooth, pry against the block. This is a 'baby-step' procdure. Work on the opposite side. Two of the pistons will be at near top dead center. The other four will be the pistons that will challenge you. If you have any luck with freeing the engine, remove the diesel fuel fron the crankcase / cylinders. Introduce 12 volts to the starter with the plugs out. The freed engine will turn giving you some signs of other problems with-in. This five second test will give you great info on what the future of the engine will be. Put some oil in the engine, clean and set the points, plugs and spray some starting fluid into the carb . . . fire that mother up ! Good luck.

These old rigs were built to work, not sit around in a museum or haul the high school homecoming queen a few blocks once a year. The most logical solution to your engine problem would be a later-model transplant, a good-running full oil pressure 235, or a 261 if you can find one. Get that one buttoned up to drive for now, and start collecting the bits and pieces for an engine swap before too long. You can polish out at least some of the roughness on the crankshaft with emery cloth, using a shoeshine motion to get it as smooth as possible. There's virtually nothing you can do to improve the condition of the camshaft lobes- - - -they're history, along with the bottom of the valve lifters, most likely. Used camshafts come up on ebay pretty often at fairly reasonable prices, so consider replacing the cam rather than reinstalling that one. It's really bad! I normally don't reccomend a used cam, but we're talking about an engine here that's basically on life support anyway, so "best-practice" repair methods went south a long time ago!
Jerry

I've found one of the best tools to help a locked-up engine start turning to be a carpenter's wrecking bar about 3 feet long. Use the chisel-tapered end in the flywheel teeth at the bottom of the bellhousing after removing the dust cover, and pry against the bellhousing to get the flywheel to turn a tooth or two in one direction, then go to the other side and turn the opposite way. Don't break teeth off the ring gear, but if you're careful, a lot of turning force can be applied that way. If you're not successful in getting it to move, remove the oil pan and the cylinder head, figure out which piston is moving downward by looking at the angle between the connecting rod and the crankshaft, and give that piston a little gentle persuasion with a block of wood and a sledgehammer while someone else keeps the pressure on the flywheel with the pry bar. Pick out another piston that will help the crankshaft move the other way, and repeat the process with the sledge. Using a more effective penetrant than Diesel fuel might be a good idea, maybe PB Blaster or Kroil.
Jerry

I vote for PB, it has worked for me on a number of stuck engines.

I swear by Kroil myself.

This should help put things into perspective: Most of these trucks are old pieces of farm equipment that we put a little lipstick on. Farm equipment might include an old engine used as a field generator or a tractor motor. It might have mud and sand in the oil, eliptical cylinder walls, wallered out bearings and rickety valves, but as long as it runs, who cares? It can backfire, belch, leak, squeek and hiccup but old Joe the farmer don't care as long as she runs. On the farm, everybody has to earn his keep including the dog and the cat if they want to get fed. The cat might have a missing ear but as long as he's catching mice, he's a beauty. At the other side of the spectrum is aircraft standard. You can't even think of running an engine with a scratch on a cyliner wall. An engine in a used aircraft that has sat for any period of time will be looked at with a fiber optic scope to see the condition of the cylinder walls. Any question and the engine MUST be professionally rebuilt by a certified mechanic. On my friend's plane that cost him $18,000. If the old stovebolt stops running, you pull over to the curb and call your buddy and tell him to bring his tow rope. In an airplane...yous gonna have time to think about just how, in a few seconds, yous gonna die in a crashing ball of fire. My standard is, do my best, try not to spend too much money so my wife doesn't get mad and have an autoclub card with me at all times. And never buy an airplane!

Orchidskip, I'm from Southern California myself and I didn't know there were any farms left in Huntington Beach, let alone farms with field generators.

When I moved from urban Southern California to rural Northern California in 2001, that 450 mile move brought me to a location where the concept of "Doing it right" is totally differernt from what I learned in the first 56 years of my life.

Here's how I would describe the difference:

Urban: Do the job in a way that whatever you're doing won't have to be redone or repaired for a really long time. Example-hone the rebored cylinder walls with a torque plate bolted to the block deck so that when the cylinders are installed the rings will have a perfectly round bore to seat against. It doesn't cost much more and many tens of thousands of miles later the compression will still be uniformly high and oil consumption will still be minimal.

Rural: Do the minimum required to get it working right now. This ain't a beauty contest and I just want it to run because I've got a job that needs doin' tomorrow morning. If it breaks later on I'll fix it again. That fancy city slicker stuff is a waste of time and money.

I can understand and appreciate both ways and find them intersting to read about on this forum. Especially the posts about towing or rolling vehicles with "stuck" engines down steep hills to "bust 'em loose".

Orchidskip, I'm from Southern California myself and I didn't know there were any farms left in Huntington Beach, let alone farms with field generators.

When I moved from urban Southern California to rural Northern California in 2001, that 450 mile move brought me to a location where the concept of "Doing it right" is totally differernt from what I learned in the first 56 years of my life.

Here's how I would describe the difference:

Urban: Do the job in a way that whatever you're doing won't have to be redone or repaired for a really long time. Example-hone the rebored cylinder walls with a torque plate bolted to the block deck so that when the pistons are installed the rings will have a perfectly round bore to seat against. It doesn't cost much more and many tens of thousands of miles later the compression will still be uniformly high and oil consumption will still be minimal.

Rural: Do the minimum required to get it working right now. This ain't a beauty contest and I just want it to run because I've got a job that needs doin' tomorrow morning. If it breaks later on I'll fix it again. That fancy city slicker stuff is a waste of time and money.

I can understand and appreciate both ways and find them intersting to read about on this forum. Especially the posts about towing or rolling vehicles with "stuck" engines down steep hills to "bust 'em loose".

Barsteel, right now there are some FREE (no cost) 216 engines listed on the VCCA online forum. It's possible those don't have the rust issues you are dealing with.