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Am I right in thinking originally all Detroit Diesels were 2-cycle engines. If so, when did they start building 4-cycle Detroits?

The Detroit 60 series has been out about 15 years. It's an inline 6-cylinder about the size and weight of a Cummins 855 cubic inch engine. it's totally computer controlled, doesn't even have mechanical throttle linkage. Pretty good engine, so i hear, but I don't have much hands-on experience on them.
Jerry

Jay,

All the old ones were 2-cycles as far as I know.

Without looking it up, I believe the first 4-cycles were in the 80's or 90's. One is called the 60 Series. I believe another is called a 50 Series. They are supposed to be good, but I don't have too much interest in them.

Bill

Thanks Hotrod. You're thinking about like I am. Just had an argument tonight with my brother. He tried to tell me that Detroit 4-cycles have been around as long as Detroit 2-cycles. I knew he didn't know as much as he claims to but that just about floored me.

Thanks to you also Bill. You and I must have been posting at the same time. My first inclination was to send you an email; knew you'd know but I just went ahead and posted it to the forum.

John

Jay
Detroit Diesel also came out with the 8.2 in the late 70's or early 80's. They called it the fuel pincher. It was a 4 cycle engine that was used in medium duty trucks. It got mixed reviews as far as how good of an engine it was. We had several in our school buses, and I had good luck with them. They haven't been used in highway vehicles since the earlt 1990's, they were to dirty and couldn't meet emission standards. I have heard that they are used in marine applications after that, but I have never seen one.
Jim

The old Detroit's are all two cycle.
GM diesel division started with the purchase of Winton engines, really big two cycle engines. They then quickly developed the 71 series and sold them starting in about 1938. The last two cycles sold to civilians was in 2000. The military still bought them for a few years after that, and perhaps still today, but I have a feeling not any more.

I don't know the date for the 8.2 (four cycle), but about 1980. The 60 series came out mid 80's I am guessing. Some of the other newer 4 cycles, like 40 series are IH based, same as the DT466, but with Detroit electronics. Please don't be afraid to correct me, as I know very little about the 4 cycles.

The old Detroit 2 cycle engines used to be the choice of the fire service. For years when we would speck out a new fire truck, it had to have a 2 cycle Detroit in it. The Navy also used lots of them on many of their small boats. They were tough engines, and would take lots of abuse.
I believe that the emission regulations are what eventually killed them. It was probably about the early 1990's. I think the 60 series and the 40 series was Detroit's answer to the emission laws at that time. They seem to be very good engines.
Jim

Just to add a little extra, I've heard some people mistakenly call a Toro Flow Diesel a Detroit. They are 4 cycles and were introduced in the 60's, but they are GMC engines.

Bill

If anyone has one of those old, out of date, polluting, dirty, 4-71 series engines and wants to part with it really cheap, I would grudgingly take it off your hands for cheap!! I could use one for my sawmill!
Rick In Va

rick,
You should have spoken up sooner, I had a 3-71 I traded in on axles for the ford Detroit project, we agreed on about a $500 value... To late now, its in use somewhere in NC now, was only at the junk yard a few days before it found a new home.
That engine was on a Foley Bell-saw mill when I got it.

A friend of mine has an 8V71 in New market, I think its for sale...

Grigg

JM
Last spring I bought a "85" F-700 dump with a Detroit V-8 and thought it was a 2-stroke. It is a 4X4 automatic with a detached transfer case. Only had 75000 miles and runs and sounds good. Top speed is about 55 loaded or unloaded.I didn't know much about Detroits, but I bought it anyway.

Owner said it has the fuel pincher Detroit in it and that I would like the millage it got. And again I didn't know much about Detroits and thought it was a 2-stroke.

Since I got it home last spring, I've tried to find info on the net about the truck and have not had any luck.
P.O was going thru a split up with his wife and all he had was a clear title.
For what I use it for , it has always started and run great, just not too fast.

Do any of you know of any websites or contacts that I can get more info on it. The motor also lacks on ID tags.

Jay, I'm not trying to steal your thread, but you just opened the door for me to maybe get some info on this truck.


Thanks for any info

2-Ton

You have an 8.2 liter V8 4 cycle Detroit. They are decent engines while they run, but many people don't think they are worth rebuilding, a lot like a 3208 Cat in that respect, and similar size and HP.

This Yahoo group is helpful for all Detroits, but mostly 2 cycle.
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/DetroitDiesel/

Grigg

2-Ton
I have had Detroit Diesel people tell me that the 8.2 should be good for about 300,000 miles if it is taken care of, and like I said, I have not had a lot of problems with them. They are a dirty engine though, and I think that is what killed them.
I have had the best luck going to a Detroit Diesel store for parts and information. Regular parts stores in my area don't have to much for them. Stewart Stevenson is a large Detroit Diesel distributor, and has a store in Denver. I don't know if they would have one close to you or not. If you find a Ford truck or Chevrolet or GMC truck dealer, they may be able to help you, since both used that engine. You will need to go to a truck dealer that has the commercial lines, not just the car lines.
The ID tags should be stickers on your valve covers, that will give you information as well as the settings for the injector heights if you tune it up.
Good luck
Jim

[IMG]http://thumb9.webshots.net/t/52/452/2/67/80/2246267800080251109NUseGC_th.jpg[/IMG]
The best place I have found to get Detroit parts. They are very knowledgeable, friendly, and more than fair. Will also ship parts to you if you are not close.

Grigg

Looks like they handle "Purkins" also. Never heard of that one.

Yes, I thought that was funny, the last batch of cards I got from them did have that corected... suppose I should change the picture.
Detroits are the primary brand, and the only engines they would work on if given a choice, I asked, and the reply is they "put up with the others"

Grigg

WOW!!
Thanks guys
This thread is going on my favorites list.
Stupid me,
if it has valve covers, it must have valves.

The price was right and I didn't have time to reseach it.
So I bought it.

The good thing about this truck is it's tagged for 24,000 Lb and I don't need a CDL to drive it.

I use it strickly for the farm, so the tags and insurance isn't an issue.

JM
The next time I fire it up{it's parked out by the wood line}I'll look for some stickers on the covers for an ID tag.

If I get it stuck with it having 4 wheel drive, who do I call to get this 13,000 pound truck [empty] out with it down to the frame in mud and farther back in the sticks than most wreckers would dare to go?
When I find out I'll tell the story.

Thanks
2-Ton

I'm hoping for good luck with the 8.2 detroit.
Picking up a 8.2 powered F600 tomorrow for use at the farm.
I read good and bad things about the "fuel pincher".

Stay in touch.

Hey 2-Ton, you didn't steal my thread; they're for whoever wants to respond. That's what makes them interesting. My brother was trying to convince me that since he is a self-declared master mechanic, he knows everything about all vehicles and that 4-cycle Detroit have existed as long as 2-cycles have. I was sure he was wrong but I also knew that there were stovebolt forum participants such as Grigg and C10-90 Bill that would know for sure so my question got answered. Then I saw there had been some new responses to the tread so I took another look. Like I said the more folks that get involved in a thread, the more interesting it gets and we all have a chance to learn something.

Speaking of "Perkins" diesels, I knew they were British-built engines used commonly in Massey-Ferguson farm tractors but I saw another use in 2001. Someone had a 1963 Studebaker Lark at the AACA show in Winchester, VA with a Perkins diesel in it. I took some photos and came home and did some research and found that there were maybe 200 or so of them built. I don't remember for sure but I am thinking the engine was a 3-Cylinder but without digging out photo albums can't swear to that.

Jay

Grigg,
I just want to go on record saying, "Please let me know when you have another deal like that"!! Either a 3-71 or a 4-71 for $500.00!

I've never had a diesel till this year and i love my 671Detroit - all 4 cycles - been to florida and back with a long layover to help what are still katrina/fema victims in Mississippi where she landed - LEARNED A BIG TRICK to me at least - everybody taught me the horrers of running out of diesel and hours of priming - a zz top lookin' good ol' boy stopped to help me de-trailer my harley when the bus wouldn't start and made it bone head simple - he pulled out the 2' sq air filter and shot our old friend Mr. Starter Fluid in while I cranked 4 times - now I (and ya'all) am sworn NOT to tell that story anywhere near the Gulf states as he and his huge service body rig get a minimum charge of $250 to come to your rescue - he makes 'em go away while he solves the "BIG PROBLEM" - I SHOOK not bidding on a GSA 3 cylinder DD in oregon and am jealous of anyone who has one 'cause my 2 ton 54 needs an engine - it went for about $800 - they don't refer to their lives so much in miles but rpms or hours of and their as impressive as the vegetable oil they were designed to run on is waste........ back to the cave, Oso

Please explain? Best I can tell a 6-71 is a two cycle engine....

Detroits are easy to restart after running out of fuel because of the injection system design. The fuel pump is low pressure, about 70 psi, and pumps lots pf fuel to the injectors, what the injectors don't use is returned to the tank along with any extra air in the system. The injector for each cylinder is it's own high pressure pump and operated by the cam shaft and a rocker arm. The fuel also cools the injectors, thus the reason for the high flow, about a gallon per minute at idle.
They start quick, usually just with a few times of cranking and waiting for the starter to cool a tad, once it fires it will run on all cylinders within a few seconds.

Grigg

Starting an out-of-fuel Detroit is simple- - - -if you have a small electric fuel pump. Just toss a long hose into the fuel tank, and attach the pressure hose to the small center port on the secondary fuel filter housing. This fills the injector supply line and fills the reservoirs on the injectors. Once the engine fires up once, it purges the air out of the low-pressure gear pump. The pump will not self-prime once it gets air locked. When I ran my road service truck, there's no telling how much profit that little AC electric pump made for me!
Jerry

Take a peek under a Cat Backhoe hood and you will see a Perkins in fact most all of the smaller Cat equipment uses Perkins they are sort of the king of small diesel but also build some big marine stuff.
Also very common in truck mounted refer units and gensets.

Cat may re-badge the small ones to use in there small equipment?
Some people jokingly call them "Perkapillars"

There is an interesting story behind my '59 John Deere 435, which is a diesel version of the 430 gas tractor. JD wanted to put a diesel in a smaller tractor before the New Generation tractors were introduced. They tried making their own, but it kept breaking crankshafts. They then looked at a Perkins, but it wouldn't fit quite good enough. That's when they looked at a 2-53 Detroit. Not only did the Detroit fit real well, but it kept in line with their 2-Cylinder tradition.

Sure glad on how it turned out!

Bill

I thought the 435 was the Diesel version of the 420? My Grandfather has a 420, and a friend has a pair of 435's...

No they are still separate Grigg if Cat doesn’t use it in one of there products you have to go to the Perkins dealer for the parts. My ASV RC30 has a Perkins in it and JCB also uses them.

Grigg,

The 420 was from '56 to '58. The 430 is a newer version of the 420 and was from '58 to '60. The 435, the diesel version of the 430, was in '59 and '60.

Those 420's were real good tractors too.

Bill

Perkis is now wholely owned by Cat.

Also, the series 60 engines will be eliminated from the Detroit Diesel lineup by 2010 when the emission limits change again. It will be replaced by the Daimler World engine, (Detroit has been owned by Daimler for several years now. It was originally a GM division but was sold, or given to Roger Penske [robably about the time GM got out of the Heavy Truck business)

Alan

"Please explain? Best I can tell a 6-71 is a two cycle engine...."

Grigg..what I think he meant is that he had only owned 4 cycle engines until acquiring the 6-71.

I have a 4-71 & a 6-71 & a 8.2
They all work good. There in some of my trucks.
Im dealing on another tuck with a 8.2 Its a long nose GMC.

Re the comment on Perkins / Cat relationship:

Do an internet search on "Perkins Caterpillar". You should come up with a Reuters article on DieselNet dated 11 Dec, 1997 showing that Cat bought Perkins from Varity for $1.3 billion.

I understand why they would maintain separate distribution channels.

I don't know much about diesel engines other than my F-250 has a power stroke. I would like to put a diesel into my COE project for pulling power and longevity. Also, fuel mileage might be a bigger issue going forward in the future. Have been leaning towards the Cummins from a Dodge, but always looking for a good deal.
So, let's talk hypothetically about the Detroits.

What about the 8V71? If a person had a truck that wieghed approximately 8000 ponds and a trailer weighed 7000 and you had say 3.73 or 4.11 gears what type of mileage do you suppose one would get at 70 mph. Would this be a better motor than the cummins? You guys talk about it being a dirty engine. What do you mean?
Hate to ask these type of questions, but with the money involved, would like to make a good informed decision and one that I won't regret down the road.
In a previous thread somebody recommended the 466 IH engines for being the most trouble free from a fleet of busses that he maintained. Once again, I'm trying to find the best total package, if there is one. Utopia, it's hard to find.

Thanks,

Robert

Robert,
I suggest you start a new thread for us to discuss your conversion ideas, think of a suitable title that describes your ideas or the ideas you are looking for.

I'll quickly answer some of your questions here first.
8V71 is probably much to heavy for your truck, and to large to fit. But there are a number of smaller Detroits that should fit. Just a guess, but if you were able to stuff an 8V71 in a 15,000 lb truck and trailer at 70 mph fuel mileage would be single digits, 8 or 9 if lucky, again, just a guess.
What size truck do you have?

I don't consider a Detroit a dirty engine. Perhaps people are thinking of emissions, in good shape with some of the better injectors they don't show any signs of being dirty. They have a partly undeserved reputation for leaking oil. With proper assembly techniques a Detroit won't leak a drop. They do have air box drain tubes that will dribble oil, (usually from bad blower oil seals) this is part of the design, if it offends you catch cans were made to capture this oil for periodic draining.

A DT466 from all I have heard is a good engine, I see nothing outstanding or special about them though.

If you want a diesel pick one that you like for a number of reasons, right or wrong you need reasons to suit yourself.
I chose a Detroit for my truck because they are somewhat different being two cycle with a blower and mine has a turbo. They are extremely reliable, easy to get parts for at very fair prices. They have been around essentially unchanged for 70 years, that says a lot about the quality of the original design. most all parts from a 71 series made in 1938 will fit the same engine made in 2000 (last year sold to civilians). Detroit's are very simple in operation, construction, and easy to service.

Start a thread about your plans and see what happens.

Grigg

I agree.

And talk about smoke, my 6V-53 hardly smoked at all. Very little blue and very little black.

Same with my 2-53, very little black and a little blue. I guess that's not too bad for a '59 that I believe has never been rebuilt.

Bill

Talk of Detroit engines caught my eye.. a while back I wrote about an incident at work where one of our drivers blew-up a motor. I said it was a Jimmy, but was wrong it was a Detroit. Essentially.. he ran low on air and stomped on the throttle to build it back up... a check engine light came one, but was told over the radio by the garage it was ok...then came the BIG BANG. What no one knew was the air compressor had blown a piston and, as it is oiled from the engine, was sucking the oil out of the engine and into the airtank and lines. Middle of a bridge the engine threw the piston out the block. I saw the engine today..apprx. 4" by 8" oval holes on either side of the block. You can see right through! Cost transit upwards to $30,000 for a new motor plus repairs to the air system.