The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area General Truck Talk new brakes want work, anyone please help

I have upgraded to dual mastercylinder with a booster, front metering valve, and 10lb residual valves. I then custom plumed new brake lines where many mistakes where made. I am struggling to get the overall system blead and working.

After fighting through a couple leaks I blead the system. "Well I couldn't get anymore air out". However, the pedal is soft, never hard, and goes all the way down.

Theres no evidence of air in the system, but also no pressure on the wheel cylinders. I can't get the W/C to ingage.

I plugged the master cylinder outlets up, which created a hard pedal with no pedal travel. This suggests to me the problem exists after the M/C. Since all the wheels are acting the same way I ruled out front metering valve. This leave residual valves and W/C's.

Q. There is a arrow on the residual valve which I assumed pointed toward intend fluid flow hence going towards W/C. However, it mechanical seems like the other direction pointing towards M/C would work better. Any body got any advice on those?

Q. If M/C works and bleeder valves are closed tight with know more evidence of air shouldn't I have a hard pedal and pressure exertion on my shows? My W/C are not responding at all.

I am near the end of my rope in despiration. Please advice me.

Do you know anyone you can borrow/rent a power bleeder from? I bled my last one that way and was successful the first time. It is also important to have all of the shoes adjusted up. I have even tightened them up to the point of locking against the drums before so I know whether or not I'm dealing with an air or an adjustment problem. Also, if it's a new master, your pedal to master adjustment may be off too,
Good luck,
Scott

I am already using the speed bleeders which seemed to be working. However, maybe I should go ahead and make the pluge and purchase my own powerbleeding tool.
I saw a vacum bleeder for $30 at the parts store.

Does anybody prefer pressure systems v/s vacum. Is one actually better.
I don't have a reserve bottle on my dual master cylinder making the pressure system more difficult to attach.

Hy Shellology, My training taught me that drum brakes need residual pressure to maintane wheel cylinder cup to wheel cylinder bore contact, especially during periods of non use. Master cylinders for drum brake applications have residual pressure valves built in, the only time you should have to add valves is if you are using a disc/disc master cylinder for drum brakes. If your master cylinder is mounted below the level of the disc brake caliper then there should be a 2 p.s.i. residual pressure valve installed in the line between the master cylinder and the calipers. Do you know if your master cylinder is designed for dis or drum brakes? If it is indeed a drum brake master cylinder, then I would remove your "extra' residual pressure valves, and bleed the system again. As others have said your brakes should be adjusted all the way out before you attempt to bleed your brakes, good luck, and I hope this helps not only you but others as well.

Did you install new flexible lines? If those lines are soft and expanding instead of holding pressure that could cause a soft pedal that hits the floor.

I do have all new parts. I went right by the recomended diagram from Pirate Jacks. The new dual M/C has no evidence of existing residual valves. I bought the 30$ vacum pump/bleeder. It worked a lot better then the speed bleeders and $6.99 bleeding bottle, which is now in the garbage.

My first mistake, as pointed out, was not adjusting out the shoes all the way. On the front, both cylinders had pushed the end caps off. After correcting every thing and bleading again, they begin to actually ingage cylinders and work. Right side much better then left. I am getting a geyser in the M/C which I believe dictate there must still be air in the system.

On the rear I sucked air untill I gave up and went to bed.

With a pressure bleeder system I think the leaks would be more obvious, "look it must be leaking where all the brakefluid is"

With this vacuum bleeder system I think Im sucking air in with know visual evidence of the leak. I was able to hear one leak but cant find any more.

I was told to tape up the connections with "good stretchy" electrical tape and that will likely stop all air leaks in the lines around the couplings.

If this works it will be gratifing to isolate issues to just mear leaks in line system rather than new hardwear or complete improper arrangment.

What do yall think?

Hy Shellology and guys, firstly residual pressure valves in drum brake master cylinders are not visible, they are part of the internal construction of the master cylinder. Secondly inverted flare fittings [ which is what brake lines and brake system components use ] require NO sealers, or tapes, in fact it is dangerous to use such products in a brake system. If you have leaks, either your components are not tightened together enough, or you have damaged seats or line ends, hope that helps.

I've been trying to contact the company to ask somebody weather the residual valves installed correctly and if the M/C already has them internally. But since they aready have my money there alittle harder to get intouch with. Here's a link to the products.
http://piratejack.net/Images/web-catalog/pages/FT5356-CT4754kitapp.htm
http://piratejack.net/Images/web-catalog/pages/PVM_jpg.htm
http://piratejack.net/web-catalog/pages/RV10_jpg.htm
Here a link to the diagram do you reckon it wrong and I been mislead or is this set up o.k.
http://piratejack.net/troubleshooting/typical.htm


Thanks, 3B

Dana

Sorry for the grammer mistakes, I should have proofread.

Hy Shellology and guys, the diagram for the drum/drum looks okay, but I have never used a metering valve in the front brake circuit, and there were millions of single systems used that did not employ or require such a valve. The system shown has the primary plumbed to the rear brakes, which is the way I would do it. It would appear that this company is only selling disc/disc master cylinders, that is the only reason I can see for installing separate residual pressure valves. Incidently I was taught that the purpose of residual pressure valves was to keep the wheel cylinder cups against the bore of the wheel cylinder, that would stop air/moisture from being drawn in to the wheel cylinder when you released your foot from the brake. Keeping the shoes up next to the drums is a function of the adjusters not the residual pressure valves, hope that helps.

I have to comment on the information provided by the link to the site. Residual valves are not there to hold the shoes against the drums. That is wrong. With no residual valve, the master cylinder will pull the fluid back when the pedal is released and the makeup fluid will be in the form of air, entering past the cup in the wheel cylinders. This is very disturbing to see a supplier selling parts with wrong information.

Well that is very interesting. Makes since also. I still never found out from the company if the arrow on the risidual valve is intended to point in the direction of brakefluid flow. I did experiment with the other way and my problems got worse. I didn't have the chance this weekend to get back at it. Hopefully, this week will prove more promising. I have got to get this behind me so I can move forward.
Yes I understand that the system does not require sealant or tape. My only goal would be to isolate my problems to airleaks. Reasure the system is installed properly and that there is not something greatly incorrect. Then go back and address the leaks.
Thanks everyone,

Dana

The front cylinders appear to be working. However, the right wheel (when spun) will stop first time I press the brake.

The left front requires double pumping to stop the wheel.

Both wheels have residual valves, W/C adjusted all the way out, Blead with no more obvious leaks.

What gives?

The rear w/c were adjusted out to the best I could do. The adjustments are really hard to turn. Afer bleeding it sounds like they are now trying to engage. However the wheels want turn and I can not reverse the adjustments to release the hub.

Any suggestion to turning those adjustments in that confined area on those new rear wheel cylinders?

Thanks.

Hy Shellology, are you saying that your rear wheels are locked up with the brakes not applied? Those adjuster wheels are something an engineer dreamed up to test a mechanics patience, just keep woking at them you'll get there eventually. Try adjusting the fronts until the wheels won't turn, then back them off until they just turn, this should give you the same braking action side to side. If that does not cure the problem with the fronts then I think the metering valve may be at fault, I guess I'm too old school, I still don't see the need for a front metering valve, hope that helps.

Good advice! I will do that to be sure.

On the metering valve, I wonder if anything needs adjusting.
I agree also that I don't really see it's true purpose. Since I don't know what im doing, thought I better do what was recommended. Plus it cost $58 dollars and I'd hate to take it off. If this don't clear up my problems I'll will remove it to be sure.

The rear wheels are not absolutely locked up. I can turn them in small increments with a bear grip. I was wanting to remove the hubs again to ensure E-cable and w/c's are still where their suppose to be. Thats why I was trying to back them off. But darn if I can budge them backward, I barely got them to where they are.

I am starting to hate these rear brakes. I don't see myself doing this too many times with out converting to disks back there. Then all-over.

3B, you and others are true bolt savers.


Thanks, Dana

Hy Shellology, whenever I rebuild a brake system with wheel cylinders that have metal caps on the end, I pull the caps off and I put some never seize on the area that rides on the outside of the wheel cylinder body, I also put some on the adjuster screw threads, if you get your drums off again you might consider doing the same yourself, keep pluging away at it, hope that helps.

If you have drum front and drum rear, I would throw the metering valve away. If you have disc front and drums rear, I would throw the metering valve away. If you had disc/drum you would be using a combination valve. The combination valve has a metering valve, proportion valve, residual valve and pressure differential switch, all in one unit.
Disc brakes usually have the pads riding right up against the rotor, when the brakes are off. The rear shoes are out away from the drums, especially if they are adjusted too loose. When you first apply brake pressure, the disc brakes will want to act immediately and nose-dive the car. The metering valve will stop pressure to the front discs until there is at least 40 psi on the rear cylinders. This will overcome the shoe springs and start pushing the shoes against the drums and give you some drag, before the front discs begin to work. No nose-dive.
Did they give you any info with the metering valve? Was it clear which was the inlet and which two were the outlets? There is a rubber boot on one side of the valve. Did they tell you to take the boot off and hold the pin out while you were bleeding the brakes???

That's a great explanation to it's purpose.

Did they give you any info with the metering valve?

No.

Was it clear which was the inlet and which two were the outlets?

No. I had it backwards at first then referred to diagram on the website.

There is a rubber boot on one side of the valve. Did they tell you to take the boot off and hold the pin out while you were bleeding the brakes???

No. The boot is still on it, I didn't know to remove it.

Exactly how would I hold the Pin out?

Sounds like I should take it off and be done with it. If so, Do I need the same length of brake line from the T-Block feeding both wheel cylinders?

Richard, thanks for that info. Hopefully im not the only person who needs it.

Hy Shellology, the length of the tubing is not critical, once the system is bled the pressure equalizes throughout the system regardless of line length, hope that helps.

And the saga continues,
I've taken a "break from the brakes" but now im back.
Long story short:
Pulled both front hubs off and dang want a mess. I have learned the importance of adjusting them alllllllll the way out before pressuring the system. But, I was adjusting both sides the same way. Unfortunately these Huck brakes cylinder caps are opposite sides so one was all the way out one all the way in. One side was popped off and the adjment holdem clip wouldn't allow them to reseat. That was the good side. The other side was the same except I put the return spring in wrong hole on shoes. This didn't have efficient return strength and shoes where instant ingagement. All corrected on the front and currently working as I would expect.

Now, I'll re-tangle with the rears.

Hy Shellology, That a boy, keep going, you'll get there, keep us informed.

If someone had told you, you wouldn't remember it next time. Experience is the best teacher. You'll know that next time you do one.

Glad you figured out the problem and got it corrected.

Next time, work on one side at a time. That way if you need to see how they go back you can always look at the other side.

O.K. fellow bolters.............I did it.

Finished.

Finially removed the rear wheels and the new W/C where stuck. Even after taking the shoe tension off I still had to hit them with rubber mallet to pop ends loose. Added some lubricant and they would began to adjust. Those rear Huck cylinders are still a bear to move but with more leverage/pressure will turn now. Adjusted the E-brakes. Blead brakes again (no mess this time).

They seem to be working great now. The entire system seems fine with no leaks.

I couldn't have ever done it with out everyones help. I would have given up a long time ago. Now I can move forward and know my brakes are right.

Thank you stovebolt for bringing the best community together.

Hy Shellology, Great to hear, good luck with the rest of it, keep us informed of your progress please, and don't be afraid to ask more questions.

Just a question. Have you seen the pictures in the service manual of the mechanic using the special tool to measure the difference between the inside diameter of the brake drum and the outside of the brake shoes? It would seem to me that would allow you to get the shoes pretty close before putting the drum on. It would seem that this would reduce the amount of time you had to spend messing with that extremely irritating star adjuster.

Any thoughts?

Just went thru all this with mine,those vacuum bleeders are priceless!!!!!!!!!!