The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Engine Shop Are lowered coil springs safe?

I have a 1965 chevy pickup and I am getting ready to start putting it back together and am fixing to buy some new coil springs. I want to lower it so is it safe to buy 3" springs for the front and 4" for the back or is that too much. I know that there is a cnotch kit out there but I don't want to go that route. Also, do I know I need some type of lowered shocks since it will be a few inches lower.

Good luck getting a wheel alignment after you lower it. Besides making the truck butt-ugly, lowering one makes it impossible to get a safe, reliable alignment job. While there's a lot of accessories out there to change ride height, up or down, none of them seem to take the suspension geometry into account. Invest in a good trailer, haul it to the car show, win your trophy, and haul it home. Don't put the rest of the driving public at risk with a dangerous vehicle with unpredictable handling! Just my humble opinion!
Jerry

Jerry, you're being a bit harsh!...Personal taste in rides, remember.
However, you are correct concerning the geometry and alignment questions.
Lowered spindles are a better way to go to get the front dropped with-out messing up the ride etc. There are spings out there that will bring the back end down. Often lowering blocks are added between the trailing arms and the axle (Which really just lift the axle up) to bring the back end down. Don't cut the back springs as they are tapered.

Yep, I'm opinionated! 45 years in the trade will sort of do that to a guy! I'll agree that lowered spindles are the least dangerous way to lower one, but even then, the "scrub radius", (the imaginary line through the ball joints that intersects the tread centerline) gets out of shape. Oddball tire wear is the usual result, plus some pretty unpredictable handling characteristics in an unexpected shap turn. Once a suspension system starts operating at the upper, or lower limit of its travel, all sorts of things start happening to roll center, roll couple, center of gravity, etc. "Ackerman", generally called "toe-out in turns", can also be affected. As long as the vehicle is driven only in a straight line, at low speed, we can play all the ride height games we like.
Jerry

What's an NSRA?

BTW, I build lowered vehicles all the time, they're called round track race cars. They're either on the track, or on the trailer, never out on the street.
Jerry

I've lowered my '64 years ago using a spring kit with out any negative consequences. If anything, it rides and handles a whole lot better. Granted, I didn't drop it to the ground, just 4 inches. It put it's stance and ride heighth where it should be. Also, it aligns up just fine. Just a matter of taste whether you want to drive an old school truck or moderize it for better handling. I personally believe a truck with a lower center of gravity with wider tires on the ground and fresh suspension parts to go with the springs would be safer on the road, not more dangerous.
Also just my opinion gathered through years of experience,
Scott

Hmmmmmm - - - - - -
Looks like I've opened a can of worms here! Here's my experience, and it's not based on some baseless prejudice, but real-world experience.

I've had the distinctly unpleasant experience of attending the funerals of four of my students over the past several years, all killed in altered-suspension vehicles, three of them lowered. Each time, it was a loss-of-control, single-vehicle accident. One lowered pickup hydroplaned during a thunderstorm, putting the truck and its occupants into a 3-foot diameter tree. Result, one killed, two injured. One of the survivors is a quadraplegic. Next- - -loss-of-control accident, also a lowered pickup. Passenger died when his neck was broken by contact with the seat belt. He had the seat reclined, and apparently hung himself on the shoulder belt. He was a good, straight-A student, with plans to open his own body shop. Next- - -high-speed chase, involving a stolen lowrider, driven by one of my students, with 2 of his friends onboard. He lost control in a curve, and rolled the truck into a tree. Driver decapitated, passengers killed on impact. Next- - - -a student was killed on his way to school, in a vehicle I had refused to allow him to lower in the school shop. He had a friend torch-heat the springs, and died one week later while attempting to avoid a stopped vehicle ahead of him at a stoplight. He ran head-on into an 18-wheeler in the oncoming lane. Witnesses to the wreck said he made several attempts to control the skid, and got further out of shape with every steering correction. I work in a public school automotive shop, and I will not put myself, and my employer at risk of multi-million-dollar lawsuits by midifying suspension systems, or even allowing altered-suspension vehicles in my shop. For those of you considering suspension modifications professionally, be aware that you're assuming liability for any and all damage done by the vehicle for the remainder of the time it's on the road. My brother is a very successful attorney, and he could take a shop to the cleaners in a liability suit involving an accident with a modified vehicle. Maybe some of you are willing to assume the risk, but I'm not about to put myself, or my employer, in that kind of jepoardy.

The round-track cars I fabricate are intended to do only one thing, go fast, and turn left. We do that under extremely strict safety and construction rules, with equipment that has been developed for the purpose. We also have safety and medical crews on-site, prepared to react instantly to a mishap. How long will someone on the street have to wait for assistance, especially if an accident happens at night, on a stretch of road that's not well-traveled? The risk isn't worth the reward. Nobody looks cool in a casket, regardless of how nice his lowered truck looked before he wrecked it.
Jerry

Joe, I preach safety and proper parts and procedures in my class every day, and most of my students listen. I drive absolutely box-stock vehicles on the road, currently an 87 Cadillac. No, I don't change anything, even wheel or tire size, on a street vehicle.

BTW, I've tried to present my views in a non-confrontational way. I don't appreciate the insults.
Jerry

Apology accepted. I've spent 45 years in the automotive trade, with 22 ASE certificates to establish my credentials. It's my considered opinion that changing ride height is a difficult, and sometimes dangerous practice, and I base those opinions on a lot of study of steeing and suspension design from an engineering standpoint. While a vehicle might handle OK under normal driving conditions, evasive maneuvers, unexpected sharp turns, and other circumstances beyond even a careful driver's control can result in unusual handling problems. Far too many lowering, and raising projects are done from a cosmetic viewpoint, with little or no thought to possible unsafe consequences.

It's hard to face a grieving parent who asks "Why did this happen?", and have to answer that it was at least partly the result of poor judgement in their child's choice of modifications to his car. I know, I've been there too many times.
Jerry

Before getting too upset one must make sure you are talking about the same thing. There is lowering a few inches for looks or lowering center of gravity without altering the way the suspension is designed to work. Then there is lowering to the point the way the suspension was designed to work is severely altered or inhibited. These are the extreme lowriders we see bouncing down the road.

I would contend that the milder lowering probably makes a pickup more stable and safer while the extreme lowering will ruin the ride and safety of any vehicle. Can we agree on that?

I'll venture a guess that a +/- 2" height change won't create problems, or a maximum 2" change in track width at the tire centerline (1" per side) will also be within reason. Going beyond these limits without a total redesign of the suspension geometry is asking for trouble in a big way. The radical lowering we do on roundtrack cars is accomplished by completely refabricating the frame, with the proper, computer-generated suspension and steering angles built in. One of the popular IFS swaps on the older stovebolt trucks is the F_rd Pinto system, which, in my opinion, is deadly dangerous. It's seriously overloaded for the vehicle, and drops the front end about 4" or so. A rehab of the original suspension and steering, with modern materials such as polyurethane bushings, improved-design tie rod ends, drag link, etc., probably will result in a safe, reliable street machine, with better handling than the original system. Going radical for the sake of appearance alone is not my cup of tea, but if someone wants to do it, it's his business. Just don't offer me a ride.
Jerry

Hotrod,
I understand how you feel working with so many kids that make up the largest percentage of inexperienced and dangerous drivers. It probably makes your arguement a little one sided. Your students don't have the knowledge, money and sometimes the desire to properly lower a vehicle. They just want to look cool. I've seen the latest trends (I have a 14 year old daughter) and agree with you on the lowering of the compact cars will screw the whole car up.If we are talking about the vehicles and people that apply to our forum, that is a whole different scenerio. I've lowered my truck for the better, properly and professionally. I whole heartedly agree that the butcher jobs have no place on the street. I don't work for a company that deals with so many young folks and I don't know of anybody that has died because of any vehicle mods. I have seen people killed driving beyond their limits though.
Scott

I don't know very much about lowering vehicles and the safety involed, but the guys I see driving around all lowered out are driving slowly all the time.That tells me there are driving safely or the vehicle has strange handling when pushed or simply can't handle the bumpy roads around here.
I would be concerned with maintaining some balance in the handling,like taking sudden evasive action and the back end gets suddenly loose, you go sideways off the road.
Be interesting to compare a stock and lowered vehicle at the limits on a race track.

That is a test easily replicated. If you take a racecar on a roadcourse and change only the ride height it would go faster at the lower height limit.

Well, that's a race car, on a race track, driven by a driver securely strapped in place and being able to prepare for each turn in a vehicle designed for changes in ride height.On a street vehicle , well balanced handling is more important than speed through the corners I would think.But all things being equal,a lower height should handle better as you say.

WHEW!!?!!

Regards,
Wannabe

Nothing more butt ugly than an old chevy truck lowered with 20 inch tires. Makes even a **** F100 look good compared to that butt ugly mess.

Nobody has mentioned driveline angle here. Surely there are some affects to be considered there too ?

Back to the original question. My recommendation is to go with drop spindles on the front and 3" drop coils on the rear. This is also a good time to go with disc brakes on the front. Gave my 69 this 2.5/3" drop and took it to an alignment shop that does a lot of street rod work. Did it last summer and have no unusual tire wear,plus it corners and drives straight far better than before, in addition to superior stopping. I got the Early Classic Enterprizes kit. If there were a safety issue, I'm sure their insurance company would shut them down.

Thanks Fred and everyone else for the detailed posts. I am putting disk brakes and I already have the spindles and I got a really good price on them so I would rather go the coil spring route so I dont have to waste good spindles and plus I have to buy new coil springs anyway so I think I am just gonna kill two birds with one stone with a 3" coil spring drop in the front and a 4" drop in the rear. I will be buying all new coil springs so ya'll don't worry about passing me on the road with hacked up coil springs. Also, do I need to get lowered shocks as well. Thanks again

Brady,

Speaking from some personal "seat time" experience, I'd like to offer a couple of comments:

1. In answer to your "lowered" shock question, an unqualified "YES!" Any time you change the suspension travel without changing the size/design/damping rate of the shock to match, you're asking for a bouncing, unsafe ride. A few years ago, I almost bought a 1994 Mazda B2300 pickup truck (got traded in on the used car lot at the F*rd dealer where I worked). It was dropped about 4" all around using dropped I-beams and coils in the front and an axle flip kit in the rear. darn but that little truck looked cool...unfortunately, it rode like a haywagon because the guy cheaped out and retained the stock shock absorbers all the way around. Long story short, whatever supplier you use for your lowered springs will be able to supply recommendations as to matching "drop" shocks-use 'em.

2. My younger sister's fiance has a 1991 Chevy S-10 which he uses as a shop truck for his custom body/paint business. It's lowered 2" front and 3" back, using drop springs in the front and lowering blocks in the rear. A couple of short rides in it with him convinced me that lowered spindles would have been the way to go-that little truck rides "rough," by the seat of my pants. He also says he wished he'd spent the extra few bucks to buy spindles over what it cost him to buy lowered coils, just for the ride.

3. Last point-I may not agree with what Bone Stock Lincoln posted about modified vehicles, however I DEFINATELY agree with his points about unsafe operation or modification of the vehicles. I also feel that if you are modifying your truck, spending the dough for the right parts as opposed to just hacking a coil is a smart choice. By your postings it sounds as if you're a younger fellow, please be safe and stick around long enough to get some grey hairs! Best of luck and much enjoyment with your project.

Regards,
Wannabe

Another thing or two. With a 4" drop in the rear you will need an adjustable panhard bar. You will also probably need shock relocation brackets for the rear, I don't recall how they're set up. I know on the 67-72 series the shock angle is too steep when stock, it gets worse with lowering. Gas shocks are a great improvement, too. You should be able to get all of this where you get the springs.

Hey, awesome discussion on lowering! This might be one for the FAQ, more information in this one post than anywhere else.

Easy to lose sight of the car being a balance between form and function - form takes precedence for many builders. I'm always amused to see the tricked out and lowered ricers going extra slow - I always assumed that was just a driving choice, but never suspected they might be teetering on the edge of drivability because they decided to lower within 1" of the ground...

The most amusing case I've seen was the pickup with the end of tailpipe and the bottom part of the muffler being ground off every time he went through an intersection with any dip to it...

-Boyo

Okay -- keep it up then. I just emailed the thread to ourselves so that we can put it together as a FAQ or tech tip or something.

Thanks.

Keep adding. Any photos would help, too ... send them to [email protected]

Thanks,
Peg

A link which may be of some interest:

www.sema.org

For anyone not "in the know" SEMA (Specialty Equipment Manufacturers Association) plays a HUGE role in the enthusiast's ability to enjoy old or special interest vehicles, be they stock, modified, racecars, etc.

"Big Brother" would gladly take away our right to own/enjoy old vehicles in a second given half the chance.

SEMA also encourages member companies (i.e. aftermarket parts manufacturers) to build the best quality products possible, while also engineering them to specific applications and uses. Typical good quality brand name suspension parts for lowering or raising a truck will have a good deal of engineering involved in their design and construction to ensure a durable, safe to use product which doesn't increase the danger of operating the vehicle.

Boyo, it's funny you mention the dropped "ricer cars." I remember cruising downtown Oshawa one Saturday night in my younger days with a couple of buddies (in a lowered Civic, matter of fact ). We passed this beat-down late seventie's Malibu 2-door-three different colours of primer, 4" tall cowl-induction hood scoop, 14" wheels with really small low-profile tires and loud dual exhaust. This car was, quite obviously lowered with the old "heat the springs" trick and it was so low that the slightest road dip caused sparks to fly from the entire undercarriage! Whoa, WTF!?! Unsafe definately isn't cool. Properly redesigned and engineered "low" is, in my opinion.

John and Peg-second the motion. For a minute, this post looked like it might turn into a "p***ing contest," but it's turned into an interesting debate of a topic. This is truly what I come here for-an open exchange of information and honest real world opinions. Thanks to all for your inputs here.

Regards,
Wannabe

If you were to drop your truck less than 2 inches, you wouldnt need new shocks. If more than that, you will. Since you will be putting on drop spindles up front, and I assume 1" drop coils as well, you shouldn't need new front shocks, but you will in the back with a 3-4" drop. I would personally get new shocks all around, just for the sake of having better control all around.

Lowering moderately is usually safer than lots of OEM ride height. This is providing you lower your vehicle the correct way, as many of these guys have mentioned. The cheap ways are torching your coils, cutting a coil off of each spring, and things like that. They are NOT safe. The safe way to lower vehicles is by getting dropped coil springs (as well as dropped spindles), lowering shackles. But by far, the easiest way to lower your vehicle is to get low profile tires on 14" rims, or to jack up your pickup, take off all of the tires, and then setting your pickup down on the cement. It's actually the safest way, doing it like that. Mostly because you won't be moving afterwards.

I know of many first gen Lightnings (F0rds full-size sport truck) that are lowered. Not only do they look better (in my opinion), they are proven to handle better, which lets the driver have more control over the vehicle.

I think I ramble on too much.

Drew

Regarding the sparks flying - I just saw a catalog with magnesium blocks you bolt to the lowest point underneath the frame. Then when you bottom out you get a nice bright white spark, instead of those boring old yellow iron sparks... Seriously. :o

-Boyo

Thanks again everybody for all your help it would have taken weeks to gather this much info. on my own.

don't forget about the gen 2 lightnings (my daily driver) that come from the factory with a lowered suspension and much wider tires. handling is greatly improved, and all of the drop spring kits for the front of those trucks have higher springs rates, as opposed to the lower than stock spring rates of the "heated" coils.

cutting a coil spring down actually increases the spring rate, but has to be cut properly to avoid ruining the spring, and even if done right cutting the spring can lead to unprdictable spring rates. lowering the rear suspension, especially a solid axel/leaf spring setup would have only 2 adverse effects that are correctable (or avoidable) first is the driveshaft angle, lowering will alter this, but is easily corrected with shims. second is groung clearance and suspension travel clearance. many that are dropped very low, have to put in a "c-channel" which is a piece of the frame cut out, with a plate welded in to help support the frame in this spot to allow clearance for the axle to have enough upward travel without bottoming out.

the biggest problem i can see with lowering the front of an IFS equipped vehicle is bump-steer. this is when you hit a bump, and it jerks the wheel to one side or another. this gets worse the lower you go. this is caused by the tie rods being at an angle due to lowering the front of the vehicle. this is correctable too, but often requires some fabrication of new/altered rods to level them out.

so i guess to answer your question, as long as all bases are covered with proper spring rates, damping, and clearance issues (don't forget to trim your bumpstops) and the drop is not so dramatic that it severely limits suspension travel, they are safe.

i first lowered my 64 by cutting the front springs,but it put the a-arms at weird angles,so i am using 2.5" drop spindles and 1" drop springs on front and 5" drop springs on the rear.im nowhere close to needing a c notch.stock shocks on front and aftermarket shocks on the rear with relocater brackets.i have a 1980 swaybar on front with lowered brackets.the truck SEEMS to out handle my camaro.i kept the stock panard bar.the tires seem centered.of course a 65 panard bar is different.

Zenish,
so I could put a 1980 sway bar on the front that I get out of the junkyard and it will bolt right up if I have all of the correct bushings and everything. Also, is it necessary to buy a shock relocator kit for the front if I am lowering 3" with coil springs. I am driving a 65 chevy.

no, for the front you will need new, shorter shocks.

i used the crossmember and a-arms from the 1980 too so the swaybar holes were already in the lower arm.the 66 frame i have has the holes too.the swaybar will bolt on if you drill the six holes and use new frame brackets or cut the rivets and use the ones from the 1980.my front shocks have enough travel to allow the a-arms to bottom on a bad dip in the road.

I apologize for the ignorance but does this mean that the front shock relocator bracket is unnecessary if I am only lowering it 3" and get shorter shocks. Thanks

Some good points and some real bad points . Hot Rod is way off base .Anytime you can get the center of gravity lower its a good thing . Most any good alignment shop can do a good job getting caster/camber and bumpsteer fixed up after lowering . Not sears . Not Pep Boys .Not your local high school teacher. Not your local car dealer . Not for 49.95 either. If it does not cost you over 100 bucks they did not do there job. Somebody that still knows how to use simple gauges and tape measures . You do not need any computer programs to figure out all this stuff unless your looking for 1/100th at a cup race. I work on and build an open wheeled mod circle track car that we do drawings of the old fashion way,full scale to set up . We win .The daully that hauls our 5th wheel trailer is also lowered and at about 14,000 GVW and has no problems traveling in excess of 40,000 miles a year most times allways way over the speed limit. Its safer lower and in most peoples opinion just looks better . If your truck was to haul say off road i would leave it at stock height. With your old truck i think i would swap out the complete crossmember to the newer style . We have done it in one day. Droped spindles are the way to go but you can buy new lighter rate springs and cut them. Remember back when somebody said as you cut them the rate goes up. When you do the camber and caster you will have to put about a 3/4 inch spacer and new longer upper a-frame bolts . I like grade 5 but must guys will use a grade 8 . It makes it much safer , you wont have a big stack of shims just a few with a 3-5 inch drop . One last fact about lowering,if done correctly it will handle better .If you spring it correctly it will also handle any load and drive as good if not better than a stock height truck .

I just thought of one other point for HotRod. You should be telling us about all the suvs in your area that turn over with young drivers that get killed. Its a pretty well known fact that the insurance companys keep tabs on. Young girls in suvs in our area are the most killed of all. Graduations are going on this week and so far 5 dead. All in bone stock cars and suvs. Something to think about when you hand the keys to your kid on his or her last nite of high school.

No comment. I'll bow to the wisdom of the guys who were still in diapers, or unborn, when I started working in this business in 1958.
Jerry

Listen kids.

Lowering that causes worse handling, ride and safety: BAD BAD BAD!

Lowering that improves handling, ride and safety: GOOD GOOD GOOD!

Let's try it together, BAD BAD BAD! GOOD GOOD GOOD! Talk amongst yourselves.

you can use the same shocks if they are in good shape,but to keep from bottoming out use hevy duty shocks.ive never heard of front shock relocaters.i don't see any need for them.

Hotrod and anyone else,
I may be younger than you, but what makes you more experienced than me. It's like saying that because I'm older than my daughter (who is 14), I must be better at doing this computer stuff, which is far from the truth. She has been born into that era and knows nothing much prior to that. Age isn't that much of a factor as much as experience is. I've been a certified line mechanic for the same shop for the last 18 years. I work on the side sometimes at night and weekends on friends and families cars, trucks, tractors, skid loaders etc,etc. Then I get to work on my fleet. Before that I worked on construction equipment, heavy and light duty.
As your name indicates, you can't be as against automobile modification as you let on. That's the essences of the term hotrod. As I've said before, I've lowered my truck (about 40K miles ago)with only springs, used stock shocks, better tires, it aligned easily and it's a far better truck for it. I know this from personal experience. We all know cutting and heating springs and so on is
not "lowering", it's "butchering" and isn't worth discussing on this site. That's more for the Jap crowd than bolters.
Excuse the rantings,
Scott