The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Interiors 50' 3100 Seatbelt /Anchor ?

Looking for pros & cons to putting Lap-Belt Seatbelts in my 1950 3100. Any comments on the "L" shape anchor VS flat anchor. And floor areas to use or to avoid. I am planning on putting two in (Driver's & Passenger). Thank you in advance for any input on this.

When I did mine there didn't seem to be a whole lot of options. It seems like they need to originate behind the seat and in front of the fuel tank if it is still in the stock location. If they are under the seat it looks like they would just push the lower seat forward and not hold you back in a crash. My concern was routing the belts over/thru the stock seat frame in a way that wouldn't cut the belt in the event of a crash. If you are concerned about crash protection there are posts and tips on how to modify the cab for a shoulder harness. I didn't do that and don't like to think about what the steering wheel and column will do in the event of a crash.

This worked well for me....I installed a 3-point system:Installing a 3-point seat belt system in Advance Design trucks

Ditto for me on Deves well done how to .
Except I only welded the upper shoulder mount. The floor mounts I moved inboard a bit and bolted through with big thick washers . It's tricky because you have to work around the cab mounts underneath.
I also put a middle belt doubled up with the inboard mounts to attach a harness for the hound dog.

Whoa ... put the torches and cutting wheels away, gents -- no need to go crazy dicing and slicing up your perfectly good cabs. I did the Juliano's 3-point kit in my '49 3804 -- and it only required drilling six holes (for two seat belts). The instructions and kit was *vastly* easier and simpler than boogering up a cab

Where the belt goes over that sharp part of the seat frame/support, just tack weld a small piece of angle iron or stuff a piece of wood there. It only has to work for less than a second

If I can figure it out, then it has to be pretty simple. No cab molestation required

John:

Did you just follow the instructions with the kit?

I've been putting off purchasing a belt kit for a couple reasons: 1) My truck does not yet move under its own power. 2) I thought the only option was to do something like Deve did and cut up the cab.

Great, Thank you for All of the input! I will update when I install the Lap-Belts .

John, I like your placement of the seatbelt retractor box better than Deve's location, but what is your upper belt bolt attached too?

John,

Is that the retractable push button-style seatbelt kit? It looks like a slick installation. I'm planning to do the same; however, I may also put a lap belt in the center. My grand kids gotta ride in the truck too!

What if you have glass in the corners? Maybe that's why I installed lap belts many years ago in my rig.

my seat belts from Julian look just like johns! there is a plate that you can slide down from the top that has a nut that the bolt screws into. I highly recommend either having a very strong magnet to keep fishing it out when it kicks your butt or to spot weld it into place like others have stated.

I put the 3 point system into place on the outsides and a lap belt in the middle in case I have a smaller rider that I can tighten down so that they can't hit the dash.

Chris

Juliano's has 6 type of retractable shoulder belts as shown in the link below. Is the buckle the only difference between them? Which ones work?

Belts

JW -- Sorry for the delay. But yes, I found the Juliano's kit instructions pretty easy to follow. All I had to actually think about was where to drill the holes and even that was fairly intuitive.

Norcal -- For the upper bolt, I drilled the hole and, using some coat hanger wire and hand gymnastics, positioned the anchor plate behind the inner cab wall (as depicted in the photo). As soon as the bolt threaded into the caged nut, we were in business. Torque did the rest -- no need for welding. But I'll admit -- the first one took about 30 minutes. The second, though, took about 5 minutes

Cmayna -- Corner glass ... Hmmmm -- I'm just a lowly, cheap-beer swillin', 3-window guy. Maybe someone with a 5-window cab can chime in?

Below you'll see a coupla shots shamelessly copied from the other site showing a junkyard salvaged 3 pt. setup that's mounted higher on a 5 window than shown on any of the instructions I've seen before. I like it. Is it stronger, not sure but it is in a larger sheetmetal area which should spread any crash generated tear out forces over a larger area. I'm thinking when I get around toit, I'll copy this mounting method.

My only concern with a shoulder harness type of belt is the steering column. Its a one piece steel rod which if pushed back would hit me right in the chest. Although the steering box is mounted behind the front axle it should have some protection in the event of a front end crash.
Years ago when cars did not have collapsible steering shafts I unfortunately witnessed a head-on and the steering shaft went through the driver's chest and pinned him to the roof of the car - a 1952 Pontiac.
As a pilot I learned to have "exit" strategies in case of an emergency. In my truck I'd like to think if a crash was inevitable I would lie over in the seat. But will I?

I'm watching this thread with some renewed interest. I really like the idea of the three-point harness from a safety standpoint. However, from an aesthetic standpoint, the shoulder harness is hard to ignore and sticks out like a sore thumb. Of course, safety trumps aesthetics every time, but I'm really having a struggle with the three-point versus the lap belt. I have to pull the trigger this Spring so the grand kids can ride too. Any thoughts, opinions, or additional pictures would be appreciated, thanks.

Another thought/question, I'm only 5' 9" tall.............

If the shoulder harness is anchored on the B-post above the cab corner windows, wouldn't the shoulder harness ride too high?

Let me know your thoughts on this, thanks.

Depends on how tall one is Sorry, couldn't help myself. Yes, I think you'd not be happy with that mounting point.

I did a study of seat belts years ago when I installed them on TF. Our trucks don't have a good place/structure for them. Sheet metal walls and floors, even with backing plates, are not optimum but it's all we have. The Fed Spec is about 9000 LB strength for hardware and the anchor area must withstand that, without tearing loose. A person weighing 160 lbs at 30 MPH can create about 30g force which is almost 5000 lbs! The average 95th percentile male is 215 lbs. That is about 6400 lbs force at 30 MPH.

The shoulder bolt placement is sort of important to get right per instructions. Otherwise you either choke or upper body not held. A low strength shoulder mount structure can break thru and hit you in the head and........

It is true about the steering wheel/shaft being dangerous. Aftermarket columns sometimes have collapsible features. Also when there is a universal joint with a change in direction of column shaft to steering box, that can prevent getting shafted.

The car and truck manufacturers finally realized that the seats being held were as important as the belt. Seat bolts were shearing off or busting thru seat brackets. Seat moves forward but you are held back. Bad news, So they redesigned seat mounting structure. Sorry to say we have that potential issue on our trucks.

Similarly, of course, you never attach belts to the seat frame.

There are few statistics on old trucks, re: belts, that I could find. Our accident rate is low. We drive better and we usually don't speed.
All in all, it's better to have them if done with some thought. The aftermarket belts and hardware meet the backing plate sq. in, thickness of washers, size of threads, materials and web strength required by the Feds. It's our truck's structure and design that is not up to par for seat belts.

Having the shoulder strap anchor plate welded into the door frame is probably the best that one can do, as in Deve's example...however, as Bartamos explained, it's gonna have to deal with a lot of force in an accident. And the problem with a 3 point system that uses a retractor reel is that IF the shoulder anchor breaks loose during an impact, it is also an anchor for the lap belt (the whole system has to be anchored in three places in order to have lap belt tension)- so you will lose the tension on the lap belt as well....not a good thing at all!!

OK, you guys have done a Great job of summarizing my concerns here. Now do we as a group, have the skill sets to come up with an adequate plan to address these 3 pt. short comings?

One avenue I briefly considered (while laying in bed not being able to sleep) was a custom build roll bar that was as hidden as possible that would provide the upper point of attachment. Didn't take long in the light of day to dis that idea.

RonR

Continuing the conversation above, it all may well be moot since the steering column will likely get you if the shoulder harness does hold you in place in a serious accident.

I have read all the responses on this thread and many others concerning belts in a AD truck. My thinking and it is probably very flawed, so I expect to get flamed is a shoulder belt will not help much on frontal hit impacts with any speed involved, I think no matter what, that steel post of a column is going to get you. I'd rather have a lap belt and lay down. I have personally seen a guy thrown out of a vehicle and survived that would of obviously not if he had a three point. But alas, one could argue the merits and demerits of restraint systems forever. I think a successful lap and shoulder restraint includes a breakaway column and air bag. I think history has shown the evolution of these safety devices over the years and it has definitely evolved with all components and crumple zone sheet metal working in unison. One is not much good without the other IMHO, so mine will have lap belts only with hope of stopping you from getting thrown around too bad and sustaining life for a under 25mph hit, after that seems that everything else is a crap shoot.

Mopar and sstock have covered and expanded thoughts on the whole issue. My post was informational. Not to stop anyone from trying their best to be safe. All the points made have merit. Some of it sounds dire. This is just the nature of discussing auto collisions. Just wanted everyone to know where the weak links may be. (mounting structure). We can't design anyone's particular install. This would be a huge liability to undertake. The vendors who sell these products don't have liability on the actual product because it meets Fed standards. They do have liability on install instructions and I have always been surprised they do that. They have NO IDEA what structure there is in each era and model of truck.
Anyway, everyone must make the decision has to how best to install. Basically, our truck's design did not contemplate seat belts or much crash safety.

This is how one vendor releases liability on where to mount.
"4. Anchor points for belts must meet the strength load requirements of FMVSS 210." (Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard 210. I got some of my info from that spec.)

We all know that even though our metal is thicker, that our old trucks are not even close to modern vehicle's survivability. That's why we are extra careful.
We can still have lots of fun and enjoy them.

I'll add a bit of morbidity to the conversation. Last summer my 21 year old niece was in her traffic lane about a 100 yards from her parents (my brother's) driveway on a modern two lane highway when another driver going 83 mph (per his cars onboard computer) in the opposite direction crossed the c/l hitting her off-center at the left headlight and left front wheel. She died instantly. Her car's air bag deployed and her 3 point was hooked up. No she wasn't on her phone texting.

I think you can forget laying down in the seat in a real world accident, it'll happen too fast. Had the other driver been running the legal 60 mph speed limit, perhaps she'd have had a chance.

I'll continue to ponder the best solution for my trucks safety belts.

So sorry to hear of the loss of your Niece so tragically moparguy. Godspeed to her.

So is there anything we can swap the steering column with to provide the necessary collapsing action. Anybody done this??

There are collapsible steering shafts and all the way to a complete chrome collapsible steering columns available. Somewhat pricey. Just search, you'll see them.
ididit, flaming river, Jeggs, Summit, etc.

Gentlemen,

Thank you all for your replies. You have all provided me with the detailed information that I need to make a decision on seat belts. This thread will serve others very well in the future too, regarding seat belts and three-point shoulder harness installation in AD trucks. Since my '47 doesn't have any seat belts, adding them will be an improvement none the less. I'm not going the three-point harness route since I'm built so close to the ground and the location of the shoulder harness anchor point will end up too high. I'll be installing lap belts. Juliano's is sending me some color samples. I plan on using the aviation-type buckles.

Thanks again for the great info.........

I'm happy to see this discussion. So many people take the attitude that any car built before (arbitrary cut off, usually 1970s) is inherently safer than later cars because STEEL and completely overlook that just because the vehicle may possibly be more robust, somehow that translates to immunity for the occupants.

Yet one more thing for me to tackle once I get to work on the truck.

I assume everything mentioned here would more or less also apply to a 52 GMC?

AMEN to that. I've see a video of crashs test comparing a late 50's Impala I believe with a modern sedan. The older car was pretty much demolished and the driver certainly wouldn't have survived. The newer car with it's energy absorbing crumple zones and other safety features, such as engine mounts designed to deflect the engine downward, was totalled as well, but the passenger compartment was basically intact, and with the air bags, the driver would have just been shaken or lightly injured.
Pretty eye opening.
[on edit] Found it. Check this out. Crash test video

It seems to me that if you are in an accident so violent that it bends the frame of the truck to the point that it shoves the steering column into you, then you couldn't possibly survive the wreck even if there was no steering column and you were wearing a 3 point seat belt. Most occupent versus steering column accidents involve the occupant flying forward into the steering wheel/column. That's reason enough for me to install a 3 point belt, but the real reason is I cannot stomach the thought of my wife dying in a low speed accident because there's nothing to stop her from hitting the dash or windshield.

I've seen that video and I believe newer cars are safer, but I think the Impala was a rust bucket to begin with. I find it hard that they would destroy a good condition '59 Impala. Kind of like the gas tank explosion on a side impact crash on a GM pickup that was assisted by an explosive charge. You can never not have an accident but I sure drive defensively when I'm in my '47 AD.

I went back and viewed the video again, and you may be right, there's a reddish brown cloud under the Impala. Sure sign of rust.
I once took a 92 Buick Roadmaster Station Wagon (the proverbial land barge, right? and built like a brick #### house) to a demolition derby. Actually won the first round, but in the second was disabled when a rusty upper suspension-arm gave out and cause a severe case of toe-in and I couldn't move.

As I have been contemplating putting seat belts in my 56, I have appreciated everyone’s input on this subject. I think what has made the decision for me is that I believe in a low speed collision (which is most likely due to how slow I drive), a seat belt will probably keep you from dying or at least having some serious injuries. So I have ordered a set of the 3 point style from seat belts plus; I’ll post how the install went when I am finished. Thanks again for everyone’s views and ideas.

Lee, looking forward to your report.

RonR

I have completed the install of the 3 point harness from seatbeltsplus.com without too much trouble. The kit came with no instructions of course, and the web site instructions were not too detailed, so I had to use my own ingenuity in a couple of places. The only big change I made was in the installation of the center buckles; due to the various contours of the bottom pan just forward of the fuel tank, the large round washers that were supplied would not fit unless I placed the buckles almost under the seat. Instead I mounted them instead in the same area as the fuel tank hold down bolts. I had a piece of angle iron that fit perfectly and already had a couple of holes in it that I could use to run the bolts through. The strength of the angle iron I would guess would be more than the round washers supplied, so maybe that is a plus as well. The shoulder mount was quite easy to mark, drill, and feed the backing plate up into. I thought it would be a stronger attachment the closer I got it to the aft door frame, but I did not want the pivot sticking out into the door way, so I moved it back a bit. Hopefully the strength is not compromised too much. The bottom part with the reel was also easy; I did have to remove my jack mount pad though. I could have left it in, but I did not want to have to drill through that thick steel and since it is attached only with a couple of sheet metal screws, I did not think it added anything to the strength of the attachment. If any one has any questions, ask me here or send me a post mortem and I will be glad to answer them.

Lee.