The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Paint and Body Shop Water Based Paint????

I just flipped through the newest Eastwood Cateloge and there is something in there about the Gov. changing the regs to require the use of water based auto paint. I guess california has already adopted something? It looks like all waterbased paints need a traditional clear coat on top.

Does anyone have any info on water based paints and whether I ought to consider using those for my 1/2 ton rather than the more toxic traditional paints?

NM51, I had a run of 150 full size Cadillac
bodies that was painted using waterborn paint
while working at GM...Remember...the water must be
baked out by using a oven...The basecoat/clearcoat
system is logically what You want...Why, because if any major problems arise, its the easiest to
repair with no fuss.... Bill B.

2009 is when all of the shops have to be using the water paint,believe me we are not looking forward to it.if they want to cut back on harmfull voc in the atmosphere this is not where to start,(with just the base coat that is)most of the bad stuff is in the primer and clear ,sealers,epoxies and so forth not the base and what they want us to do (I think) is crazy!-sandwich water base between two layers of solvent base,and we all know in the industry everone is always pushing the envelope on dry times between coats(time is money) I think the water bourn will be gone fast and return as a full water system not just the center of it.so back to your question stick with the solvent based as long as possible just my opinion! :rolleyes:

The enviromental folks want
to stop the backyard painting because of dumping
the hazardous materials into the atmosphere...so
they develope paint materials that are more friendly to the atmosphere, but will need multi-
million dollar facilities to use them, then declare the older materials too toxic for use and
remove them from the market...Sadly, only one
person has to make a complaint about a hobbyist
painting in the back yard or garage, then watch how quick He is shutdown...Bent, is right on...
Bill B

Acutally, I have been wondering something lately...

Should I be able to SMELL the paint fumes from the F@#d plant down the road? This year there have been three distinct times that I have walked outside and felt like I was actually stepping into the paint booth. Nasty paint smell...and this is not rattle can smell...I know the difference.

I am 'assuming' that the plant should have filters in place that I shouldn't smell anything next door to the plant...let alone way over in my neighborhood. But the wind seemed to be right to be coming from that direction each time.

Been thinking of reporting it.

Many manufacturers have been using waterbased paints for years (e.g. BMW amongst others). Why would you not want to use something that is less harmful to not only you but the environment in general.

As for the government regulations, Bill_B, doesn't it seem unfair to you that a "shop" has to comply with regulations but there's nothing stopping you from painting in your driveway? And consider it's not just the painting itself that involves pollutants. Cleanup of your hvlp will be a lot simpler with waterbased paints. I would bet most people cleaning after using traditional paints simply dump the solvents without disposing of them in a environmentally friendly fashion.

robin58, My point is the paint manufacturers
are being forced by the Goverment to introduce
paint materials that are more friendly to the
enviroment, thus removing the systems that are
damaging the enviroment...Also waterborne paint
is enviromentally safe, but again, the water must
be removed from the refinish material before applying the clearcoat...How do You accomplish
this ??? You must have facilities like a high-bake
oven to remove the water...and again My point is
that the Goverment is looking to make it more difficult for the average hobby painter to paint at home...I agree with a lot that You posted..Bill B

There's actually a really good article on painting and the laws in the June 2007 issue of Rod & Custom Magazine.

They do briefly touch on the waterbased paint by Auto Air Color and mention amongst other things that a waterborne clear is not too far away. FWIW Auto Air waterborne paint can be applied directly to BARE UNPRIMERED metal so the dangerous primers are avoided.

BTW I am not sure it is 100% the government that's solely to blame for trying to implement these laws. I suspect that autobody shops have pushed hard for equal legislation to apply to hobbyists.

Asthma in American children has risen 87% between 1982 and 1995, and is still growing.
Might that have something to do with what is in the air? Air is a major component of what people call "the environment".
Painting your car releases whatever your are spraying into the air that your children and your neighbor's children breath into their bodies.
Doing so, without taking all the latest news and information into account, is selfish.

If any of the above is not true, let me know.

Who know's,we could end up painting like the the very old day's one color (black) put it on with a roller ,brush ,rag or the neighbours cat, then hours of color sanding, and a nice buff to shine!

It's really not the hobbyists the shops don't like, it's the guy's running a repair shop out of his garage. The majority of shops don't want anything to do with resto work or complete paint jobs. They want the "replace a fender and paint blend" insurance work. Unfortunately the hobbyist will get lumped in with the guys doing work on the sly.

Bob

I don't know what apple tree you envirenmento waks got hit on the head with, but obviously you haven't seen the newer paint jobs over the past 10 years deteroate, are you blind or don't you notice that the paint is washing off and or chipping before you get it off the dealer's lot and onto to the ground and into our lakes. I didn't hear you say anything about that though. Oh yea water base, wash off in lakes, usta take 20 years for paint to come off a car, today, starts the first time it's in the rain. "Clear coat", yea that work's, look at cars that are 5 years old, what happened to the paint? DUAH. It's washing off. You enverimento wako's, please go exsersize you right in some other country, because when it come's to paint YOU DON'T KNOW YOUR BUT FROM A HOLE IN THE GROUND. You tell me Al Gore which is more enviomental safe paint that starts washing off in 2 months and is completly washed of in 5 years or one that takes 20+ years. Signed "Painter for over 50 years."

Actually, some DRs claim the rise in asthma & alleries are due to the homes being too clean, the body is not exposed to "normal" levels of dust, dirt, etc. Not the fella painting his car 2 counties away. I really don't care about the nieghbor's kids, he is running a meth lab & he don't care so why should I?

I don't want to get into the melee here but there is a lot of stuff polluting the air than a paint job. More airplanes, more Big trucks, more cars, more motor cycles, more battery operated "toys" that pollute landfills, "they" even say the computer screen isn't good for you. Well, I guess I'm doomed anyway. I ate and breathed enough dust on a farm to kill me before lead paint or voc's. So much dirt in my tummy that I could grow corn in there. Heck, maybe all the asbestos that I breathed back in the 60's while in construction will do me in first. But wait, there is the copper floboric, chromic acid, and other fumes such as Varsol and printing dyes/inks/chemical that I breathed for the past 35 years that might do me in before all the others. But it won't be Crack, coke, LSD,Pot,sniffing glue, or any other uppers/downers.Why don't the fricking gov't put a stop to THOSE killers.

Beaver53, In My opinion You have sniffed too many
paint fumes in Your 50 years...signed "painter for 55 years."

I didnot say I didn't use the proper safty equipment. Hell water will kill you if you drink to much. It's just that the Gov don't know what they're talking about' and when they come up with a better way, IT'S NOT.

Appreciate the opinion and truly appreciate just because someone has an opposing opinion to your esteemed one that we are "whaks" for taking an interest in progression and products that are more friendly towards the environment. Of course had you been painting without breathing in voc's for 50 years maybe you'd understand that and not make a post like you did.

Like they say though everything is bigger in Texas.

I also find it very offensive to call anyone who talks about environmentally friendlier paint system as "waks", and it wasn't the "government" that came up with the idea of water based auto paints

I'd like to know what paint beaver has found "washes off in 5 years" .... or maybe what kinda solvent he uses in his carwashes

yes, NM51, you should consider using the latest - there's lots of good expert reports , and it won't be long before it's all that\'s available - let the dinosaurs whine as they decline, go with the future

Bill

Ok, guys, please turn down the political discussion or I'll lock this thread.

I'm all for discussing whats coming to future paints, put please keep your bashing to yourself.

Thanks!

yea haa!!

I don't know much about painting, but my old 58 Chevy still has a lot of the original color on it even after nearly 50 years. My dads 96 Lumina had big splotches peeling off before it was 5 years old. I have seen many of the newer vehicles with less paint left on them than my old truck. So something doesn't work very well with the newer paints.

Course, the manufacturers may not expect people to keep a car longer than 5 years.

When I joined this forum, I was led to believe that it was a place where we were instructed to leave our political and religious opinions at the door. I find it refreshing to enter into a place where what we have in common is this love of old trucks. One of the attractions to these old trucks is that it takes us back to a time when life was simple and less complicated. That said, we live in modern times. Note that we are all using computers. Like it or not, technology will change. We can embrace it like we have these machines we are all using to talk to one another, or we can make a fuss about it and go thru life unhappily expressing our anger and at war with ourselves. That said, 99% of the discussion on this forum is warm, friendly, intelligent, and gives me hope for the survival of the human race.

Part of the reason we are seeing late 80's and early 90's vehicles peeling was a massive change to paint formulation then- removing lead and lowering solvent VOC's. It took a few years for some of the manufacturers to get it right, and for the most part, they have. I have owned a few new (and newish) vehicles of American, German, and Japanese manufacture over the last 15 years, driven them daily, parked them outside, and only washed and waxed them when I had time, which wasn't very often. I haven't had a single problem with paint (other than chips and vandalism, which arent the fault of the paint).

I expect similar teething problems with water based products. A lot of the failures were application problems. I'm looking forward to the day when I can spray a vehicle in my garage with only a particulate respirator and not worry about sickening myself or having to worry about the air quality in my neighborhood. Some of the chemicals used now may not be all that terrible for the environment when well diluted, but they play havoc on the central nervous system.

At least most modern vehicles have the paint failing from the outside instead of the inside. Modern technology really increases the life of body panels before they rust out underneath the paint.

I've been shut down twice by the Dept of Environment for backyard work - once for spray painting a truck box outside and the other time for sanblasting behind my garage. I'm on the edge of the woods but houses are near by. The neighbour reported me.

Had to build a paint booth inside my garage and install filters. Built an outside enclosed booth for blasting. A pain for sure but I got small kids too that play outside so all for the better.

After reading about that waterbased base coat I'm curious to try it. I think I'll buy a pint and spray a test panel, then clear coat it and leave it outside for the summer and see how it does. Maybe I'll even hit it with a hammer and scratch it.

Please let us know how your unofficial test works out. Do you get any hail or snow up there?

i used to see chevy trucks with peeling paint turns out they were useing water base paint and failing badly mayby it will get better

I don't see any of the car manufacters making anything last much longer that the warranty period. As stated by a Diemler CEO "The life cycle of a car now, is 3 years". Cars are going down in life expectancy, and don't think that the cars of today will be around like the ones we're working on that are in there 50's and 60's. Give me the old days.

My 1990 GMC has that nice white paint that flakes off more and more every time it rains. Underneath is not rusty, it is a nice clean grey.
I have seen plenty of white trucks around from the same time period with the same problem.
Is this due to the change in paint formulation of that time?

I've been called a whacko once already so I'll continue to expose myself to that moniker, but doesn't it occur to people that maybe acid rain had an effect on that paint? Sometimes also the history of the truck can make a difference. Vehicles here used as commuter vehicles by employees to the chemical plants nearly all without fail have peeling paint.

From what I understand GM started with water based paint in the mid 80s' and freely acknowledge they had issues in the earlier years. Toyota immensely improved on it in the late 90's and I truly think the manufacturers have it somewhat under control. Of course the method they use and the product that 4onthefloor is going to test are completely different. I'll be interested in seeing how it turns out.

Not much snow or hail here but plenty of rain, gravel, bb's, hammers, and shotguns are available, and I can take it out to the coast and dip it in the Pacific Ocean a few times. I have a wheel barrow that could use a paintjob, maybe I'll do that.

WOW...you guys are intense, Bill was it you who said that the waterborn paints had to be baked..as to get the water out before clearing the truck? Or if your a backyard guy like me,can I shoot water born finishes on my truck, then wait till it dries completely ..then top coat it? I am confused. M.G

Pretty sure Mike G. you just wait and the water evaporates. The chemical process is obviously not the same as for urethane style products, but to the best of my knowledge no baking is needed.

Thank you Robin,,It looks like I am going to have to look into this

Here's the guide for the product:

Application Guide

and details:

Auto Air Colors

Hey Robin...Thank you for all the info,all step by step proceedures...M/G