The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Paint and Body Shop Botched project re-rusted.

I'm about to begin a project, but after botching the first one so bad I think I'm going to need a bit of advice. Actually 3 bits...
I "restored" my old P-30 a few years back. Dissassembled the whole vehicle, THOUROUGHLY sandblasted to bare metal, cleaned, primed, and painted everything. An example HERE of what I did, Er... or tried to do. It took 8 months to complete, and the thing wasn't on the road a year before it looked nearly as bad as it had before. Total waste of time and effort. Wanted to cry. Where did I go wrong?? I'm building a driver not a show truck so what can I do differently? I know this is way too general a question with not enough specific info, but I'm hoping that some of the pro's can at least point me toward some good info/resources. In the field that I'm GOOD at, the net is so full of crap that I shiver at the thought of trying to sus out good info on this topic by myself.

I also no longer have a sandblaster/compressor. Am I just gonna have to pony up for another, or do some of these magic chemicals and a few dozen wire wheels on a grinder have any merit?

And a few other Q's, sorry about the length...

Any tips on protecting the (anodized?) finish on things like ball joints and the flex hose brackets? I tried clear primer/clear lacquer. Didn't work.

Besides the totally obvious, how do you tell how much metal has been lost to cancer? Specifically frames. ALL chevy pu frames around the great lakes are totally covered in rust, how does one know if they are structurally sound still? Or is the rate of loss so slow on the (relatively) thick frame that it usually isn't an issue?

Thanks in advance.
Jim.

Hello Jim, welcome to the Stovebolt.
I can suggest a place to do some reading to help you understand auto body preparation and painting.

http://www.autobodystore.com/cgi-bin/config.pl

Jim,
I fully agree on the autobodystore link as the guys there are very knowledgable and helpful. Len's archives hold a wealth of information too.
Another information site would be www.paintucation.com. Kevin has a good forum going and his videos are excellent.
Bruce Palmer
[email protected]

Thanks much. I'm determined not to make the same mistakes again. Was a bit disheartening to say the least. Hopefully with these, I'll at least figure out what the original mistakes were! Strangly enough, a friend was doing a '66 Chrysler as I did my truck and he followed my um, examples (guess I looked like a pro with the blaster, heh-heh.) as I went along. His still looks great 6 years later, although it hasn't seen a winter.
Jim.

I'm doing the frame off thing with my 66 burb and I'm going to use a sealer from Eastwood called Rust Encapsulator.All you have to do is knock off the scales and paint this stuff on(brush or spray)Theres more info @ eastwood.com check it out

Maybe it's because I'm just old jaded and bitter, but these "magic" products just seem too good to be true, although I've never tried them either, so what do I know? That's why I went the blast to metal route in the first place. I just can't help thinking that if they worked so well, that body cancer would all but be eliminated here with the stroke of a brush. I've heard a lot of POR-15 hype too. Y'know if I had a brain... My daily "drive it till it stops" beater is a Mazda that's just starting to rot but spreading fast. I should use it as a test pig for some of these products, (don't care about the car or how it looks anyway) see how they hold up, and report performance.

Jim can you tell us what you did last time? There may have been a flaw in your system that isn't obvious to you but will be clear to others. Can you tell us what products you used and how long from start to finish did it take you?
Give us as much detail as you can from start to finish and we will see if we can figure out what went wrong.

Well, Only if you don't laugh at me...

Really not much to tell though. The frame wasn't in horrible condition. About what you'd expect with 20 years of normal service - lotsa surface rust, but no severe damage. I took everything apart (except riveted members) and used wire wheels on a grinder to "pre" clean the rails and parts. Then sandblasted everything using the white sand that is used (I think) for laying interlocking brick. I did the larger parts in sections. Stripping the metal down until it was uniform bare metal with no rust spots left. Blew everything off with air and gave it a couple of primer coats. I just bought a few cases of grey automotive spray primer from Canadian Tire, nothing special and not self etching - the kind you'd use for driveway auto body, y'know? After that just whatever colour of choice I wanted. Several coats following instructions on the can. I used several different brands of paint, but all the spray bomb kind. I know this wasn't a true restoration. The project started with intending to replace all of the front end components (shafts, bushings, U+L ball joints, tie rod, idler, coils, etc...) and turned into a Frame off restification because I had the time, money, and space at the time. All said, I went at it for between 8 months and a year. Man did it look nice when it was done! (I linked an "in progress" picture in my original post) Strangly enough, the sway bar still looks good to this day. I started thinking this was some sort of galvanic issue instead of a prep issue as the bar is the only part totally isolated by rubber bushings. All the primer and paint was layed on warm dry sunny days, and nothing was allowed to sit bare after blasting. The edges of parts (like the lip of the lower control arm) were filed down so there were no sharp corners. hell, I even drilled a 1/4" hole in that lip so that any water would drain) Maybe I was just stupid and nieve thinking that spray can would hold up? Although I did the body in flat grey (light sanding and same primer) and it has still held up fine - of course it wasn't down to bare metal. I hate to brag, but I'm quite good with spray bomb, I don't want you to think it was a TOTAL hillbilly job done with a roller... However, my spidey senses tell me that you're slapping your forehead an thinking "Oh, God. He used SPRAY cans."
Jim.

You got, my forehead hurts!

You did what sounds like top quality work on the blasting and prep, with a good finish, it would last a looooonnggg time.

Most of us make these kinds of mistakes along the way. (Not enough space here for the DUMB things I have done to decrease the cash supply) Shake it off as a lesson learned and move ahead wiser and with a sore forehead!

Jim,
Exposure of steel to the elements is a function of porosity of the surface coating/s.

Typical rattle can primers are an adhesion promoter designed for paint to stick to. They are like sealing steel with a layer or 2, or 3, or 8 of window screen. It dries quickly because there are many open paths to the atmosphere through the film.

Follow on top of that with rattle can paint and you really haven't gained much. Most aerosol paints are low in solids and hence hard to get any meaningful film build which would be what would be a must for gaining any degree on impermeability. I'm guessing the "paint" in those aerosols could be equated to window screen also, a finer mesh perhaps, but still porous. Anytime a product dries quickly, it's because there isn't much in that film slowing down the migration of solvents to the atmosphere. Hope this helps
Bruce Palmer
[email protected]

I have found that using spray cans works pretty good for the smaller projects, like the engine hoist and tow bar I fabricated. I, too, blasted the metal clean and then used aerosol paints for the finish. I would apply 4-5 light coats of primer, waiting about 10 minutes in between each coat to allow the paint to "setup" (but not dry). I'd then wait until the primer was completely dry before beginning the same sequence using the final color. On both projects the finish came out great (even though they are destined to get beat up with useage). Just my 2 cents on the topic, but I think there are better products available for the larger projects and I plan to do a lot of research for my C60 project.

Bruce,

Thanks for the description of how aerosol paints work. I liked the analogy to the screens

Well, I guess the good news is that I came here before I tried the same thing again! The bad news is that I don't have the slightest idea how to buy, mix, thin, spray, etc. "real" paint. I guess I've got a LOT of research to do.

Thanks all, I'll surely have more questions later!

Jim.

Mixing the professional paints is no big deal, if you get the proper measuring stick, you just fill the paint to the proper line, then add the reducer to the next line, then the hardener last.

I've never even used a "real" spayer!!

The biggest thing will be re-thinking the entire project though. Without the option of blasting a few feet of frame or a control arm etc. in the evening and hitting the fresh metal with primer I'll have to really do some careful planning.
J.

Jim,
There is an aerosol product on the market that will do what you need and I would be happy to discuss it with you off list if you'd care to and it is available in Canada.
The product is Zero Rust.
The web site is www.zerorust.com
My email is [email protected]
Thanks Bruce Palmer

PS: Burgie, ZR is akin to closing the window, to keep the screen analogy going........

You can get "real" paint mixed and put into a rattlecan spray gun. It costs quite a bit though. It's just like anything else, you get what you pay for.
Just my 2 cents worth,
Scott

In 1997 I restored my '55 Willys CJ5 Jeep. The frame was REALLY rusty. I wire wheeled it down, then used Marine Primer on it. I forget what the stuff was called but it's weird light gray color and pretty thick. I just brushed it on, but it looks like I sprayed it. For a top coat I just used gloss black Rust-Oleum. It still looks fantastic to this day. I don't know what that primer is made of, but it's indestructible. I had a brake fluid leak that stripped all the paint of an area, but it didn't even soften the primer. I was amazed. I suggest going to the local paint store and ask them to reccomend some kind of high quality marine grade primer. When you get it home, brush it on so you know it's on there nice and thick. Worked good for me

You can get pretty decent rust control primer in the Duplcolor (sp?) brand at most automotive stores. The rattle cans have a fan nozzle and you can lay it on almost as good as a gun...

however...

It ain't the same as using a compressor and a real gun. My whole truck is painted in Zero Rust Safety red, white and black. (White on grill, black on frame) Done last year, sits in the weather and looks fine, except, I used their Crystal Coat clear which sprayed on thin, ran like crazy, and is now hazing up. I can't recommend it even when following their instructions to the letter. Or mebe I am just stupid with their clear, however, the ZR and everything else I have painted came out fine.

Zero Rust does come in rattle cans and I have used it on stuff and it works good. No rust through yet. Also you might also prep before primer with Phosoric Acid (Called Phosphoro, snake oil, etc etc) as it converts/ends rusting. It looks like green water and is fairly mild. Brush on, let dry, wipe with tack rag, shoot primer.

You can also brush or roll ZR on, and it lays down pretty good, but not the same as spraying.

If you are worried about the look of your running gear, I'd get a number of ZR cans of rattle black and have at it. ZR supposedly doesn't like the sun, but running gear rarely sees the sun.

As long as this thread has floated to the surface again -- There is an excellent discussion on this subject at www.paintucation.com on the forum. Input from users mainly, which is what most of you would like to read anyway, right?
Bruce Palmer
[email protected]

Question for Bruce.....Where is Zero Rust available in Canada???

Answer to Jim's Rust Problem in Hamilton......move South where they do not use road salt.....hahaha

I am located near Ottawa where they pcikle the road bed 4 hours before the snow starts just in case of.....

It is expensive and hard to work with but I have used POR 15 and have had good results......BUT... you must follow instructions to the letter. I believe that tere are to parts to the success of POR 15..... you must etch your metal with Phosphoric acid... a mild pre-paint wash... that converts the top layeer of the steel to iron phosphate which partly isolates the inside layers of steel.... and POR is not a paint but a "coating" highly deadly in a spray form but easily painted on... or for the brave souls... spayred on in an outside setting witha good mask. It actually hardenens with humidity in the air..... best way to describe it is a crazy glue coating with black pigment added. You hae to totally cover yourself has ANY over spray will require two weeks to wear off your skin.

I have done wheels that needed a "kneedle guns" to remove the rust and followed by sandblasting followed by an acid wash.... degreasing wash followed by a special binder coat(POR is so slick pintg willnot stfik to it with the binder coat) followed by 3 coats of army paint..... even mounting the tires on the wheels failed to remove more than the top layers of army paint.

Buy a small can and do your own tests... it is expensive and hard to work with....but I am please with it.....

PS... I do not sell the stuff and have no shares in the company... I only wish I had..

Doing a ground up on a CDN CPM 1940 Chev 4X4 right hand drive orphan.....

Bob C.

I noticed in re-reading this post that white sand was used for sandblasting. White sand is typically silica sand and is dangerous to use for sandblasting without a fresh air supply. It can cause silicosis.

Must have had paint on my fingers or will have to start using spell check or get better glasses....
Sorry for the typo.

Bob C.

Bob C,
We supply Zero Rust to the Automotive paint jobbers thru a warehouse in London Ontario. Check with your local paint jobbers and if they deal with PBE Dist's they can get anything you need.
Feel free to contact me directly if you have other questions.
Bruce Palmer
[email protected]

Thanks Bruce

Ottawa being a government town, the industrial base is almost non existant. There has been some very positive feedback on Zero Rust on the Dodge PowerWagon Forum which I also follow and would love to try it out.

Every Auto chain store I have dealt with in Ottawa, that carries Paint and Body Equipment/supplies, gave me a "blank" look when I enquired for Zero Rust. Besides I understand they have a Military spec O.D. Army paint that I am really curious about and would love to try.

Would you happen to have the name of the warehouse/wholesaler in London Ontario. I will be tackling sheet metal soon, cab, doors, ammo boxes circa 1940, etc. and spraying POR on a larger scale has me concerned.

Rust..... Mother nature's way to remind us..... that nothing is permanent!!!!

Bob C.

"Rust..... Mother nature's way to remind us..... that nothing is permanent!!!!"

What about using a self etching primer in a rattle can such as what SEM sells. Is this a porous primer. Ive used some of this but am trying my best to use a PPG epoxy primer instead. Also their are some epoxy primers sold in rattle cans, whats everyones thought on that?

In case any of you are thinking I stiffed Bob on his answers, we did it off list. I try real hard not to leave anyone hanging.
Bruce Palmer
[email protected]

gelee-etch primers are porous. Catalyzed epoxy primer is not available in a rattle can. Here is some good information;

http://www.autobodystore.com/bofb.htm

hemerite from the hardware store 60. a gallon degreese the frame and brush it on the thicker the better drys like glass and seals rust the stuff is grate did a test on a rusty wheel barrow out in the yard for 10 years now still looks good

32fire, I did a search on google for hemerite is that the correct spelling?

Hammerite.

I think...

Yes. www.hammerite.com
Thanks.

Reading about all this rust got me thinking I just sand blasted my frame & sprayed auto primer on it to cover the bare metal. I purchased some por 15 to put on the frame, but I read that their needs to be rust present for this stuff to work. Then I heard no rust is necessary. Talk about confusing, any help would be apprieciated. Thanks Mr. James

Mr. James

POR 15 can be applied to fresh bare metal or ligth rust metal......... best you read and follow the detailed instructions in their catalogue or web site. It works very well but you MUST follow the application instruction and also follow the safety warnings.

Basic process is sand blast to bare metal.... degrease with a water base solution..... etch with a spray of metal prep.... mild phosphoric acid..... dry..... coat with POR 15....wait approx. 2 hours or until tacky and recoat..... done for life. After drying properly regular paint will not stick to it without using the prescribed "binding" coating...which is safe to spray on.....binding coat is thick and can be sanded and recoated and sanded.... the binding coat has a self levelling capacity and will fill minor rust pit depressions.... let dry then give it as many top coat of your favorite colour.

POR worked good for me once I understood that you must religiously follow the stepped process.

I am now experimenting with Zero Rust for ease of spraying on body panels.....

Bob C.

PS.....ever wonder why we spend so much time and effort to "perfectly" rebuild and protect from rust an old truck that survived on its own, with no special preparation from Detroit, for 64 years?

Thanks Bob C