The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Engine Shop starting problem

1949 216 recently rebuilt

12V battery,original starter, rebuilt

With Battery charger atttached and and on boost, the starter will turn truck over after a few bumps.
But with battery at full charge ,it will not turn engine over at all.
Any ideas ?

What size of ground strap do you have?

I would check the connections, starter switch and brushes. Don't forget the ground. With the amount of current a starter draws, it doesn't take much resistance to cause problems. One other thing to look at is the cables. Are they old? I had a set on a tractor that were badly corroded inside the insulation. I spent a small fortune replacing everything BUT the cables because I thought they should be OK.

same sixe as standard battery cable, not the woven original

ok,
I will check cables,they were new.

Ok so I am going to ask some questions. Has this engine been run since it was rebuilt or is this your initial attempt? Was this rebuilt by a machine shop( machined and assembled. Battit bearing or inserts? New battery? New battery Cables? Fuel to the Carb? Ignition spark?

If you have green corrosion on the cables anywhere you would do well to replace them.

It has been run a few times since rebuild,Babbitt bearings
Battery is approx 1 yr old, no corrosion showing on cables

How are you telling the battery is at full charge? Off the charger? Voltmeter?

Could be a bad charger.

New undersized cable won't be any different than old corroded ones... Make sure you have the proper sized ground cables for a 6V system.

voltmeter, over 12v

that is something I didn't check for, cables are for 12V system,
I just realized it probably hasn't turned over without charger boost at all

probably cables and ground

where can I get the correct cables ???

I got some from JC Whitney a couple years ago. They were either 2 or 2/0 gauge. I run my negative cable directly to the lower starter mounting bolt. Google can also help here.

12V is not a fully charged battery. You want close to 13V.. 12.6-8 ideally.

Best way is to check the SG of the electrolyte... but a voltmeter will do.

A battery is considered discharged at 11.8V. Lower than that the plates could be permanently ruined.

ok, so I charged battery off the truck and got a reading over 12V
Hooked it back up and nothing.

rechecked ground and positive cables.

Removed foot starter switch and put positive charger clamp against starter and it spun, but not engine.

A little baffled at this point, first the foot started switch may be iffy,but why didn't the starter engage flywheel when directly connected and spinning??

the starter didn't engage because the foot pedal linkage is what pushes it forward mechanically .... what may be the problem is the heavy copper contact in the "switch", check it for wear, you may be able to turn it over to remedy the problem

Bill

Thanks,
I will check, but they looked ok last I checked.

Since that switch is not expensive,I may buy another.

thanks again

Could my starting problem be a very tight motor ?

I have not run it for any length of time, and I heard a suggestion to let it run for an hour or more to break motor in ??

running a 12 volt battery to a 6 volt starter, shouldn't require any special cables. And as far as I know, a fully charged lead/acid 12 volt battery is about 14.2 volts, but is has been 10 years since I have done anything with batteries. I did however used to tend to batteries just constantly on the ships, and for whatever reason that is the number that sticks in my head. I have a 6 volt system with a starter that is at least 30 years old, am using 2 gauge battery cables. (just standard off the shelf items from schucks, most likely intended for 12 volt system) and am experiencing ZERO problems, but it has only been 3 years since I put the cables on. The other issue with batteries is you can have appropriate voltage, but when you put a load on them they fall flat, it would be really easy and wise to have it load tested. You can hook up your meter at the battery, and see what kind of voltage you have when you try to start it. Then hook the meter up at the starter and see if there is any significant difference, that would give you an idea of whether or not it is in the cables or not. I don't know the extent of your starter "rebuild" or when it was done. But it is always good to start troubleshooting with the recent changes unless you have concrete evidence of it being something else.

Used to take the copper contact washer out and turn it to a fresh spot for the contact point. Worked every time.

I may swap out the battery with another, but i really think I may need to actually give this motor a real break in period.
The battery will spin starter until it is engaged to fly wheel,then it only hums.
Even with Battery charger booster on, it takes some slow turns before it starts spinning engine enough to start

OK, if I have this right...good battery, good starter, good motor...Gotta be the small cables. If the starter was built properly then you have good bushings and a good bendix drive. If the motor was built properly then tight it may be. But not too tight. If you have a good battery then all you have left would the cables and the foot switch. You are almost there. Don't quit now.

On a 12V battery its NOT the cables... really. Unless you are using an extension cord not anything resembling an automotive battery cable. For a 6V battery, yes. 12V, no.

Take out the spark plugs.

If you hit the foot pedal and the motor does not turn over check TWO things: is the contact switch in the starter working (do you have a polarity reverse switch? Is it wired correctly?) and is the starter engaging (can you hear it turn a bit as the bendix engages the ring gear).

Of all the things to go bad, the contact switch on the starter goes first (copper eroded by arc).

Even with a POOR GROUND a starter should have the mechanical advantage to turn over a motor even slowly with no plugs. Remember were at 12 Volts.... grounds play a much smaller role.

If the starter cannot turn over the motor, then clean the starters commutator (you need special stones for this, cost about $30 for a box). Here is how you use them:

http://www.tm9-801.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=739&hilit=commutator

You motor *might* be tight... did you plastigauge the bearings??

more things to check, I bought a new foot pedal switch and will install.

Ran the truck at high idle for about 45 minutes then checked battery, 12.45 volts.
But did nothing when pedal start depressed. WTF
no humm, nothing ,as if the battery unhooked

When I was getting an OT 289 (NOT a ferd)running a few years back (had a new starter and all the rest) with similar symptoms, the thing I eventually had to upgrade/replace was the battery cables as they were corroded inside AND the ground strap.

was a 12V factory system too

I know you said the starter is rebuilt but it sounds like a brush or commutator issue to me. I had the exact same struggle.Plugs out she spun like a champ. Put a load on the starter and the brushes were not delivering enough current. I did new larger battery, new heavier cables, cleaned up and confirmed solid contact on cables to battery, frame and starter. It was the brushes in the end. Oh, 12 volt system BTW...

have you had the battery load tested yet? Check your connections, make sure they are shiny clean, I use neverseez on all battery connections, it is conductive, and a corrosion inhibitor. I know someone will say neverseez is unsuitable for this duty, and the only thing that is applicable is T&B coprshield. The only real difference is the price, and neverseez actually publishes electrical conductivity data on their website. And no neverseez doesn't have lead in it. Lead is bad...

SOUNDS LIKE IT MAY BE THE STARTER,
once it gets going ,it starts immediately,but very hard to get starter to start spinning.
It will only go if battery charger is on 250 amp boost, and even then not right away.

You haven't confirmed whether or not you have load tested the battery. If you have a dead cell it may show 12volt or more quickly as you connect charger or immediately after running vehicle. However it will drop as soon as any significant load is applied. A dead cell can make it near impossible to jump start with either another vehicle or charger. I have bought new battery's off the shelf and had battery failures. Your local parts store would likely test your battery for free.

Connect a voltmeter to the battery terminals, and see where the voltage goes when the starter load is applied. A 6 volt battery working against a good-condition starter should not drop below about 4.5 volts during cranking. If there is little or no voltage drop when the stomper pedal is pushed, you've either got an open circuit in the starter, a bad cable or two, or a bad connection at one of the battery posts. Don't a s s u m e anything is right- - - -it's all wrong until you prove otherwise. Load test the battery to 1/2 its cold cranking amp rating for 15 seconds, and check voltage with the load applied. The voltage should not drop below 4.7 volts after a 15 second load test. Check the voltage during cranking as described above, then load the battery to the same voltage to see how much current the starter draws. A good starter should not pull more than 300 amps when cranking. If it does you've got a shorted starter or a very tight engine. Swap starters if necessary as a final test, but check out everything else first.

EVERYTHING IS WRONG UNTIL YOU PROVE IT'S RIGHT- - - -NO SHORTCUTS! I think I mentioned that before! Good luck!
Jerry

finally had someone around to do the load test,battery went to nothing.
replaced it with tractor battery and spun right over.

You guys have this all figured out , thanks