The Stovebolt Site Forums The Parking Lot Big Bolts Big truck made slightly smaller?

I have a few projects where the plan is to take a really nasty, worn out old rusty (beyond belief) farm truck.. usually 1-1/2 tons and turn them into pristine, drivable trucks, but ones that fit in a standard single car garage. In other words, bringing them back so they don't end up in the crusher.

This requires chopping the frame and shortening the wheel base, shortening AND narrowing the bed.

What I haven't figured out yet, is how to deal with the wheels. With a lighter truck, I can eliminate the dually concept and go with 4 wheels total. The new owners will want single piece wheels with radial tires. I want to do this without changing rear ends. This is a challenge because the axles have a long housing/hub configuration.

I think an entirely new concept can take hold here.. making compact driveable and fun trucks out of old farm trucks that in my area anyway are pretty much dead to those who are not as dedicated as we are. Wheels, tires, and the dually axle mod are the main issues here. I don't feel too bad about doing this since the 4400 short wheel base truck is my model. The plan is to use factory specs to accomplish that part.

Few things.
First I made this your own thread as the post didn't quite fit where you had it.

If the bed isn't overly wide these old AD 1.5 and 2 ton trucks aren't really any bigger than a full size modern pickup. My dually 48 6400 is nearly same length, wheelbase, and even width at rear axle as my dad's 05 single wheel F250. They fit in normal garages already.

If you want single rear wheels look to the 40's for ideas as Chevy had a few factory models of panel and pickups with single 10 lug 20" rear wheels, looked like they just left half a set of otherwise dual rear wheels off.

And lastly if you're looking for a fun to drive around sort of truck most folks will want to go faster than the stock bigbolt rear axles with seriously low ratios will allow. Without changing rear axles you might not have what you're trying to come up with?

Grigg

Grigg, from where I stand here in Kansas, the wheat state, there isn't anything about your post that makes sense.. you do know your stuff, however there is some disconnect here..

1) There are no short bed large trucks here. The farmers needed these trucks to carry every square inch they needed to haul as much wheat as possible. This means that we are dealing with long wheel base here.. between 25 and 32 foot trucks (total length). Maybe longer since the dealer had the beds made after delivery.

2) The beds were a full 12 inches wider than the widest part of the dually. They stuck out a lot wider than the cab. Since they all have dump beds (a feature I intend to keep and accentuate) they are much much longer than a normal suburban garage).

3) The gear ratio is secondary, but agree that its an issue but may or may not be important to the consumer. Just the same issue as when you purchase a 1/2 ton that's original and you realize its max speed is 50.

This puts these large trucks on par with the smaller ones. By modding them, cutting these long wheel base farm trucks down to a short wheel base farm truck, then making the bed a reasonable size, we are almost there. The next issue and one that will make or break the mod is reducing the number of wheels to 4 and making them modern radials. The standard axle I am thinking is too wide to do that without modification?

You are the one with all the knowledge Grigg, make no mistake, its just that I have ONE short bed ton and a half and its probably the only one in Kansas. The other 4 are outside because my commercial 10 foot wide by 30 foot garages are too small. I am with you on the rear axle not being the right ratio, but I am trying to start by making this cheap and on par with original half tons. Let the customer decide what to do with rodding it out.

Deve, I think you have a great idea for a personal truck.

If you intend to acquire big ol farm trucks and scale them proportionally down to a 1/2 or 3/4 ton truck to sell and make money, you might find a market but my guess is it won't be a very big market.

Im not sure.. you could be right, but you cant spit without seeing an AD vintage wheat truck here. And they are all decaying very fast because they really don't suit the needs of anyone anymore. My thought is to at least try and give them some time. It has been my experience there is no money in anything related to AD vintage trucks no matter what size. Its a labor of love and no expectation of making a dime.

Imagine a 30/40ish computer geek, nsa employee, you know, new age guy looking for a vintage truck and you can present them with a garage ready, DUMP bed with a full pressure 235 engine that you can get the tires serviced anywhere because they are single piece w/radials. Would be fun to explore this idea anyway.

I've done a similar concept. took a 1947 ford 2.5 ton former well drilling truck, shortened the frame 2-1/2 feet and installed a 84x102 aluminum flatbed on it. front end I used a M2 kit with the matching lug pattern to the rear out of a 66 ford. that one has a 347 stroker with an AOD trans. 85mph+ is no problem. cruises like a modern truck, and has A/C!!!!. did the same for a 1950 ford F-5.
as for a market, I have not tried to sell these two particular trucks. although, without labor I have $23,000 in the '47 and $18,000 in the '50. so figure you would have to ask upwords of that.
currently I'm building a 1952 chevy for resale. was a 3600 stock which I am turning into a 1/2 ton with M2 front, S-10 rear, 305sbc, 200r4 trans and all modern upgrades minus A/C. Figure I will need to get about $20,000 for it when i'm done to make anything.
but it all depends on the quality of the build and what you have/want to put in it. you know $800 for base/clear paint or $150 for single stage enamel.
in street rod type vehicles I've found in my shop the customer gets what he wants to pay for and they have a budget. so while most like my personal vehicles, the cost is out of their range they are usually of the more budget minded.
in summery, building what is called a spec vehicle to sell, can be risky as street rod buyers all have different desires. feel free to ask questions, good luck.

daren
ps doing all the build yourself?

My truck has the long 161" wheelbase and I will put a 10.5 to 11' bed on it. The bed is slightly shorter, less overhang than the probably 14' original bed. The width will be just a few inches wider than the rear wheels, so about 7' 6". I remember measuring an 05 crew cab long bed F250 and my old 48 is essentially the same length and width, even though it has duals and the modern pickup has single wheels. Around here a crew cab long bed truck is normal, which is why I was saying you don't have to do much to an old AD farm truck to make it fit where a modern pickup fits. These AD trucks are already reasonable small in comparison to modern stuff. Narrow and shorten the bed some might be plenty.

Did you understand the suggestion of only running the inside dual wheels as some earlier model trucks did, what do you think of that? If so you could narrow the bed even more. While it may look odd at first it is not unprecedented, so with the right bed details it could look right.

I think you'll find gear ratio is more important than you realize. A stock 1/2 ton can do well over 50, and a stock 2 ton will be screaming at 50. 6.17 axle gears even with approximately 33" tires will still make for a slow truck, not comparable to an AD pickup truck.

I'm not sure which single piece wheels with the 10 lug on 7.25" bolt circle you have in mind to run radial tires on? The easy and cheap option are modern 19.5" wheels from a P30. They may or may not fit over the brake drums depending on the size truck. Other options are hard to find old 22.5" wheels, probably not cost effective to find some, restore them, and then sell the truck.

I am and was trying to help think of solutions to the obsticals you have presented in your plan to make a big truck almost as appealing to someone looking for a pickup truck. What I see so far is it won't be easy/cheap to properly address the goals you have outlined.

As already mentioned probably best to let each individual buy, build, and or modify their own truck to suit their needs.

Grigg

also you have to have the wife on board. a 50mph truck? that rides like "crap"?
just from experience, my wife doesn't drive or even like to ride in my stockish 52 1 ton work truck, but she will steal the keys to the '47 and go like hell.

daren

and it cost HOW MUCH? haha

daren

So, Grigg, the idea of using just one of the wheels on the back instead of the dually makes sense, but what about the axle housing that sticks way out? Not sure how to shorten that. Its those little things. You are thinking orient the wheel like the outside one I am assuming to help with that.

I am currently working with wheelsmith on my half ton to get special, original looking wheels to fit over my front disc brakes. If I like their work, my plan is to set them on a new course... figuring out an original looking, single piece rim that takes modern radial tires for the big bolts. Their prices seem reasonable and it could very well be worthwhile.

No, I'm saying only the inner rear wheels so it is narrow, which is one of your goals. Yes the hub sticks out some, that's fine and nothing you can really do about it.

Here's a factory example of what I'm talking about.
http://www.stovebolt.com/gallery/smith_joe_1942.html
And last picture here. http://chevy.oldcarmanualproject.com/chevyresto/4233.htm

Grigg

any movement on your concept? despite others opinions(mine included), i'd like to see your idea move forward if it is something you would like to pursue. could be a winner, if you have the desire, then do it. keep us posted on your progress.

daren

I am busy with a 1/2 ton resto right now, but months from now I am planning on taking a long bed ton and a half and shortening it to the standard 4400 short wheelbase, taking a few half ton original beds and welding them together to make a bed large enough for the project (custom original sorta fenders), putting modern one piece original looking rims (one piece) and radial tires, dump bed and 235 engine. From there I will drive it around for a few years and see what I think. Grigg is the master at all this.. I am sure I will want to change the gear ratio, but to do something like this, you have to do it in small steps, otherwise, you run a serious danger of losing interest. At least that's my problem.

Check out "Mater 1,",on "youtube"! "49 Diamond T,on a 3/4-ton 4X4 Dodge/Cummins-powered frame. They built custom hubs to adapt Alcoa (22.5 tubeless radial) "Super Singles",to the stock 8-bolt (16") Dodge hubs/stock brakes. These guys can fabricate just about anything,so,maybe Mr. Darnell could fabricate a set??http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0iI79F6jnY

I think the super single wheel idea is a good one. Check out these guys. They use super singles on dually trucks. Kinda cool.

http://1stattack.com/brush-fire-trucks/super-single-wheels

Some of the styles are acceptable,and others are...???,especially for the pre-'72 "Big Bolts". Some are even 10-lug!They look like "Lo-Profile" tires,as well,giving that "one ton wheel,on a 2-ton truck" look. I'm glad that someone's got the idea for 3/4-1-tons. Now...bring it on for the "Big Bolts"! Thanks for sharing!!

I'm confused, a 4400 is the long wheelbase 1.5 ton at 161".
A 4100 is the short wheelbase option at 137" which is the same wheelbase as a 3800 pickup with a standard 9' pickup bed.
So, do you plan to make a short wheelbase 1.5 ton which then is not much different than a 3800 pickup (use same bed)? Or do you want to leave a long wheelbase 4400 alone and make a 2' longer pickup bed to fit? The difference in wheelbase is only 2'.

To be honest, I can't really see the point in making a big truck,"slight." I've seen tons of guys take the cabs off of big trucks and use them on their 1/2 and 3/4 tons.

The reason being, most big trucks around here were dedicated to farm use. They were brought out in the fall, and put away when the corn was all hauled. Usually they are rust free or relatively low rust cabs.

Not to mention, the big trucks and their massive suspensions, don't make for very good riding vehicles, especially if they were shortened.

I'm keeping mine the way it came from the factory-including newer bias-ply 20" rubber. I'm planning on adding shocks,(front and rear),to help soften the ride,and less road vibration,(body stress).My friend has a '59 viking 60 bus,(with shocks),and it rides pretty smoothly,for a big truck. Then again,it's a long wheel-base. The shorter the frame,the rougher the ride,as mentioned by Whitedog.

Sorry Grigg, that's what I meant.. 4100. Hard to keep track with all these different models around.

Lots of people are looking for a vehicle they can take to the local dump for grass, leaves, tree limbs, etc. and they don't care how they ride or even how fast they go. And, they look really cool. I am betting if I had a hundred of these modified trucks they would sell very fast IF they fit nicely in a standard garage.

I have more ambitious plans for my short wheelbase.. a power generator on one side, a toolbox on the other, a swing out engine hoist in the bed, air compressor, maybe a welding and cutting setup so I can do whatever I need at the salvage yards. Gas tank behind the seat for better management of space, etc. Its all about fun!

Also I am thinking maybe 18" wheels. I don't see the difference in clearance a problem, and maybe we can figure out how to make custom wheels that look like the originals while lowering the top of the cab a few inches in keeping with the idea of compactness.

Smaller wheels may not fit over big truck brake drums and would hurt the already sluggish road speed.

If you're going to add a generator,tool box,annd a compressor,you MIGHT have enough under-bed space,If you Don't shorten the box! I was planning on a fuel tank,(on one frame-rail),and an 8' tool box,(on the other. What I didn't take into consideration,was the spring perches,as well as the frame guides,for the dump-box.I was lucky to cut the tool box in half,and now I have 2,4' boxes. I suppose you could notch-out the back of your toolbox,and (maybe),generator case. Dry-fit this stuff first,and make sure that you have the space.If you're scrapping,I'd go with the longest bed possible,since you're getting paid per pound. My friend had a '72 Chevy 1-ton dually 14' flatbed 454,and we'd cut-up and haul 2 combines,on one load. "Shred",(sheet-metal),on a 40' trailer,and the "running gear",on the back of the 1-ton. More weight on the truck than the trailer,keeps the "tail" from "wagging the dog". I'd mount the (engine) hoist,between the cab and the box. Move the box back,if you have to. It'll operate more efficiently,if bolted to the frame rails. They're MUCH stronger,(deeper),than the rails on the flatbed.Just make sure to "BOX" the area where the hoist is mounted. Another thing is,the hoist won't get in the way,if located between the cab and the bed. Make sure you leave enough room for your reservoir/control panel/hydraulics. And enough room to swing at least 180 degrees. All this stuff uses space.Don't forget the oxy-acetyline tanks,hoses,torches,etc.Oh...chains,straps,binders,"cheater bar". I like your idea,I've tried to make it work,but,I ran out of room. Now my truck sits outside,so I know what you mean.If I put $ into storage,I wouldn't have $ for the truck. "Catch 22". If you come up with something,please let me know.

Don't forget the gas masks that automatically retract from the ceilings in case the enemies of the free world decide to utilize chemical war-fare.

Yeah, but that would mean a separate "for human consumption" oxygen tank. Sorry, bad idea, no room. Besides, the fragrance of oxyacet, urethane paint, steel melting, etc.. isn't that normal?

Honestly though, if you go out to salvage yards much, the person there isn't out in the yard with you, so if you are pulling flywheels, engines, stubborn parts, if you didn't bring the tools you need out there, you don't get the parts. Since time is money, I would be lost without my electric grinders, electric hoists, etc, etc.