The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area The Electrical Bay Hot starts

Gazim,

Don't be confused. There is nothing wrong with your setup. You are right-on...it cranks great when cold, and that's key to this problem.

When the starter gets warm, its internal electrical resistance increases and it loses its ability to crank the engine over.

This has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with its ability to pull the solenoid in...it does that fine, hot or cold.

All the little wires and Ford switches and the hot start thingys and all the other do-dads are only dealing with pulling the stupid solenoid in...very insignificant.

Your solenoid pulls in just fine...its the darn starter that won't spin when hot. If your solenoid DIDN'T slam closed, the starter would do nothing and your post would say "starter won't do anything".

Your engine is in fine shape..timing is great because you don't experience any kick back associated with excess advance.

You have insulated the starter from the hot exhaust to the best of your ability...it still is a marginal start when hot.

It is the starter. Like wrenchbender mentioned earlier, this application seems to require a HD starter.

That starter probably has much larger field windings...more copper, more oink!

Again, I will say that the hot start thing might work, and probably has worked. Don't know why!

If everything is as you have described it, your problem is a classic hot starter.


Stuart

the starter & solenoid both require more amperage to operate when engine is hot-the hot solenoid "drains" amperage from the (also)hot starter therefore requiring more amperage that the OE wiring just cannot supply(if you have taken a Chevy solenoid apart you can see how they are linked).Gazim may just have a bad starter, but if the problem is chronic & headers are being used, the hot start setup will be the trick. Voltage @ the stater will be the same hot or cold, but amp draw/resistance increases w/heat. brian

Brain,

I agree that the hot switch is worth a try. What I am not understanding are the comments that link the slow, hard crank to the solenoid.

When voltage is applied to the solenoid, it pulls in. There is an initial inrush of current, but the starter has not even started to turn yet

When the plunger reaches the end of its stroke, two things happen. It slams against the starter switch which applies voltage to the starter windings from the battery. It also drops out of its pull in circuit and uses the the same circuit as the starter winding to hold itself in. Its holding current is very minimal.

It is my feeling that Gazims solenoid is working perfectly. Every time he turns the key, the starter works. It works when hot and it works when cold.

The problem is that when his starter is hot, it doesn't have the 'ommphh' to turn the engine fast enough to start.

If the solenoid were an issue, the starter would never even turn on..the huge copper switch is at the end of the plunger stroke.

I am not trying to argue with anyone. I just need to have this thing make sense to me with the limited knowledge I have.

As I have said before, you and many others swear by it so it must do something. There must be something I don't understand about how it affects the starter.


Stuart

staurt, I am not an engineer by any means(& not real good @typing what I mean), but I feel the solenoid is using too many amps(when hot) to pull the starter in, therefore reducing the amperage available to the starter motor itself. the Ford relay/larger cables just supply more amperage at the starter. At first I couldn't grasp the concept either, but after disassembling a solenoid, having a beer & studying it one night, I found the solenoid & starter share the same amount of power(the copper disc inside powers the solenoid then the starter motor-it all comes thru one connection), if either one "consumes" more amperage the other will will operate less efficiently. A higher than stock comp ratio & or some headers close by cause the starter & solenoid to operate less efficiently(heat increases resistance). I also feel the starter solenoid does not "drop out" but continues to draw power to hold the drive into the flywheel. the larger wound starter motor wrenchbender speaks of should be on any V8 over 300 CID IMO(I think they are even stock on 292s),,so if Gazim has the smaller version a hot start setup may not help much. it is also hard for a novice to tell the diff w/o having the two side by side. brian

I had to do the following on a 1969 chevy 1 ton with a 350 w/ stock headers. There were two small wires (wire A and wire B) AND the "big" hot wire to the battery on my starter. If you jumpered the "big" wire to wire A, the starter would spin. Wire B is the wire I had to clean all the terminals & replace. I also had to put a BIG ground strap from the starter to the frame.
P.S. I think 64fleetside is the closest to explaining what's going on. I think most things electrical are smoke and mirrors

The aux. seliniod is a helpful tip but is not a cure all. It probably would not solve the problem. Gazim needs to start with a HD starter in good condition. If the problem persists the engine could be getting tight when hot. Recintly rebuilt engines can get hard to turn when hot if the pistons are fitted too tight. An older engine with carbon buildup also can do this. Another thing to look at is battery capacity. You need about 625 CCA or more.

My battery is large enough (over 625) the engine has about 10,000 miles on it. I am hunting for a heavy duty starter but no luck yet. Never expected so many answers and help.

Gazim,

Did you say your battery is in the passenger compartment...like in the cab.

When you built your new battery cables out of the welding cable, how did you attach the ends. Were they crimped, soldered or bolted on?


Stuart

Stuart, the one on the battery post is clamped to the after market connector, the one on the solonoid is crimped, but I might have soldered it also. can't remember

Forgot to add I am picking up heavier wire to the solonoid from the switch and battery lead. It looked kinda small today Probably about 14 gauge.

Ordered a HD starter today, The new wires didn't work will advize

Gazim,

After 50 posts on this topic, you had better 'advize', or I'll send Guido to break your knee caps and what ever else Guido wants to break!


Don-Stuleone

Don-Stuleone:

You had better send Nunzio , too.

I know he doesn't say much, but he gets cranky if he's left behind.

Keep Guido, I promise to post somthing after I get it on about Wed? Had to order it. Hope it fits. thanks again

Don't want Tanda orNunzio either

Bunny, otoh...

Hey,I'm sending my right hand man "Lefty" down there!! He told me "one call and your problem goes away, if you know what I mean"

Those guys from Long Island scare me.

Don't send anybody yet, Still waiting for the starter to get here.

MY gosh this got a lot of posts. New starter installed. So far seems to be 100% improvement with the Heavy duty starter. The one I bought is shown to be for a c10 van.??? it bolted right up and has worked fine so far. I havent really gotten it real hot but seems good so far. If problems pop up I will post again but hope you never see another posting from me on this subject. I was hunting for one with the double strap and the extention on the solonoid post to the straps. found it Thanks again to all that answered this post. you got me thru it all.

Gazim,

I must apologize..it's all my fault. I tried to stop him but it's too late. Guido bought a bus ticket and he's headed to Michigan.

When he gets there, try and placate him with pasta and red wine. Make sure is isn't California red wine, he hates that stuff!

Stuart

Stuart:
Michigan Makes a few good wines(maybe not as good as Ca. but in the ball park) I'll get him drunk and hit him over the head with the old starter. Going on a short trip (100mi one way) to a show this weekend. will be the final test for the starter?

Glad you have it fixed.I'll keep "Lefty" at the shop to handle the non payers and scamers".

Wain till after sundays trip. Hold your breath.

To Stewart, Brendan, Wrenchbender,49chev.64 f/s and all the others that contributed to solving,commented on and made fun of my problems.. Many thanks, the HD starter is working great solved all the problems. Now if you could only fix my ..........
Again thanks much.

Glad to hear it Gaz,,the HD starter should be on any V8 or big six engine that has been hopped up or over 300 cubes-many folks bolt on the smaller "6 cyl" starter cause it bolts up just fine, but they just don't have the power. Brian

Excellent news, Gazim!

Well I just went to the Auto Zone and asked for a rebuilt,(twice) took what they gave me cuz it fit. know better now due to your help.

As I said before it is hard to tell them apart until you see the two side by side,,or installed the HD version as it is much heavier! Whats odd is my old black truck had a 230 equipped w/the HD version for some reason. You could not let go of the key fast enough,,it was running w/just a touch. Brian

YUp, same here Brian