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Have had problems starting my truck(350) when hot. Starter just won't really do the job. Have replaced starter twice,(rebuilt) cables, ign. switch. ground straps everywhere. Insulated the starter from the exhaust. still cranks like I have a low battery when it is hot. It does start finally but sure scares me. Is their a reasonably price better starter? or am I missing the obvious?

The heavy duty or high torqoe starter has a space between the selinoid & the wires comeing out of the starter motor. It should have 2 wires. The light duty has only one wire or the wire is right up to the selenoid. The 350 engine should use the h.d. Your initial timing could be set to high.

My first guess is timing to advanced.
Are you running a performance cam and headers?
Sometimes the headers will cause the starter to overheat.
My cousin had a 396 that did that. He added a ford starter solenoid to the electrical system and it seem to help. Boy it pi$$ed him off to think a ford part fixed his chevy.

Oh, by chance is the shield (a metal tube that surrounds the starter wiring at the bellhousing) still in place? Your wires may be getting too hot.

Appreciate the quick response. More info....

wrenchbender, I don't know right now what starter i have but will check soon. The timing is quite advanced but I get no spark knock or the tendency to preignite when starting.
the starter insulation is a silver colored fabric made for wrapping around the starter secured with velcro fastiners. It does have a mild cam,lifters.roller rockers. But as I said it doesn,t seem to give you that preignition kick on starting and it starts perfectly when cold. will crank for as long as I have to and then some.( has a tendency to start hard after a week in the garage. The starter ok just seem to loose prime from the rear mounted gas tank.) Will let you know on the starter posts.

Need more info. How did you insulate the starter from the exhaust? I had a 350 with long tube headers in a nova that did what you are describing. It turned out I had to insulate the solenoid from my headers. It was a $25 universal heat shield from PEP boys. Never had a problem afterwards.

That is what I used. covered the starter and solenoid both Didn't make any improvement.

Gazim,

The 'hot starter' syndrome is not uncommon on these rigs. A starter current draw test should show somewhere between 150 and 200 amps of draw.

Any more than that and it would indicate a faulty starter. With the assembly line style rebuilders today, it would not be out of the question to get two poor starters in a row.

Incorrect clearances in the engine can cause it to tighten up when warm. A percolating carburetor can fill the cylinders with fuel vapor and cause a hard start situation.

Extreme advance timing usually would show up as a 'kick back' as the rig is started. This isn't the same as a sluggish, hard slow start.

Cable connections and integrity are real important. You don't want anything to swipe the amps!

If you can, get a current draw on the starter when it is trying to start...this might head you in the proper direction.

If all else fails, I know I have seen 'hi-torque' starters for those special situations.

Don't forget the battery. It must be in good shape..a load test would give it a clean bill of health.

Stuart

Automarc, more info. There is no kick-back at any time, the battery tests ok, I have replaced all cables and connections, installed additional grounds frame to body. installed a 2 inch phenolic spacer between carb and manifold.
How can I test the current draw when starting??
Thanks again everyone.

I had a hot-rod, 72 Poncho with a BIG cam. It had the same problem. Your timing is to far advanced.

I went to Sears and got a 900+ cca diehard battery, but even then it still had a bit of hesitation occasionally.

Gazim,

I have a couple of current indicators. They are inexpensive little meters that you place over the battery cable and they measure current flow in the wire.

I got the last one at NAPA..Snap-On has them under the Blue Point name.

If your rig cranks with vigor when cold, but is very sluggish, almost scary, when hot, it would seem to me that it would either be the starter, or a engine issue.

If this is driving you nuts, I would take the truck to a automotive electrical shop and have THEM diagnose the problem.

You have done lots of things to solve the problem, but it persists. If it isn't the engine, which it doesn't sound like it is, then the only other heat sensitive device that plays into the 'start' scene is the starter.

I did a little research on this item last night, and found a site that gave this advice:

"pour a bucket of cold water on the starter and see if it spins over better when cooled"

I am not recommending this bizarre test, and I'm not sure Mr. Starter would work after the bath, but it sure as heck would isolate the problem.

Stuart

Wrenchbender, I do not have the HD starter. the wire from the starter to the solonoid is a copper strap type thing. no wires from the starter per se Do you know the HD part # or somthing I can tell the local supplier. They no nothing. ask stupid questions like what year truck is it. the motor is a crate motor 350 made between 72-80 according to info I have..
Help. the only alternate is buying one of those hi pro starters for about $250 kinda steep for me.

Gasim,Before I went through a ton of cash trying parts I would put a "Hot Start Kit" on it.The kit comes with a F#rd style solenoid that you can mount in the frame or anywhere out of the way and a copper bridge to link the main battery conection with the ignition start wire(usually purple).You then use the f#rd style solenoid wired to the ignition switch for full amps.I have used this kit before with good results.

I also use the "hot start kit" like gtow69 writes of,,although I make them up myself(too cheap to buy a kit). Its easy to do, make a solid bar from starter pos terminal to the "s" terminal, connect the pos term to a large cable to one side of Ford relay. the purple wire formerly going to the "s" terminal them goes to the Ford solenoid small connection, connect the batt pos cable to the other side of the relay. this works well, the old wiring only energizes the Ford relay(a few amps) instead of the starter solenoid which requires up to 30 amps. works well with haeders that tend to heat up the starter. If I was pc savvy enough I would draw a diagram, but you can find one using Google,,brian

What is the benefit of this hot start switch. I am trying to visualize what it does over the conventional starter, but don't quite get it.

I thought the key switch 'start' position energized the solenoid coil (minor current draw), which pulled the plunger forward and closed the large copper 'disc switch' (internal) thus supplying full battery voltage to the starter windings.

How can you improve on this system. What am I not understanding!

Stuart

I meant the copper straps but called them wires. If it has 2 of them & has an extension about 1/2 to3/4 long than it is the heavy duty. If it is listed for a 350 it "should" be the HD. You could have them pull it & see. If you like to fix stuff yourself you can get one at the salvage yard & o=haul it yourself if its not all burned up or tore up inside. They are easy to work on. The Ford type selenoid helps a lot. I use one on every thing I build. It takes more than a small amount of current to pull in that plunger. You can lose voltage going through the ignition switch & neutral switch if it is an automatic. They only cost $5-10 & can be wired like 64 posted.

Hey ready to try anything I guess. I am quite certain I don't have the heavy duty, only one strap. Must have a ford solonoid laying around somewhere. I also have a hard time believeing it will help but what the hay??? Muncie not auto. Will start looking the salvage yards now that I know what to look for.

thanks wrenchbender and atomarc and all the others. If i ever get this thing fixed will let you know. Think the bucket of water is a neat Idea going to try it in my driveway just in case. also copied the solonoid trick, for my second choice also will get a amp gauge.

I was under the impression that a solenoid was an inductive load. When energized, indeed there is a fair amount of current draw..inrush, but the holding current is minimal.

On a system with a 600 amp battery and a starter draw of around 200 amps, the current consumption of the starter solenoid would be inconsequential.

When the solenoid plunger reached the end of its stroke and switched battery voltage to the starter windings, it would be past 'inrush' and in a 'hold' position, further reducing it current consumption.

I have never used the 'hot switch' technique because I always felt the system should work properly if everything was up to snuff.

Some engineer designed the starter to turn that particular engine fast enough to start...hot or cold. If it doesn't do that, something is wrong with the starter.

Stuart

I mount the selinoid close buy on the frame or inner fender. Run a 10 gauge wire from the bat. cable connection to one post. Run another 10 gauge wire from the other post to the S term. 0n the GM selinoid. Hook the purp. wire to the s term on the aux. seliniod. You can run a resister bypass off the other term. if needed.

What does this retrofit accomplish...I still don't understand. Does the new solenoid switch the starter mounted solenoid...does it bypass it altogether. In plain language, what happens.

Help, I'm a dummy. :confused:

Stuart

You aren't the only one Stuart. I'm having problems understanding this, too...

A secondary solenoid makes absolutly no sense to me.

Seriously, guys, whiskey tango foxtrot?

that extra solenoid throws all the juice directly to the solenoid bypassin the switch..in other words its makin the solenoid hotter to pull in better...
firstttttttttttttttt offffffffffffffff.. its cheap to retard the timing a few degress to check it... the kickback with advance wont be noticed as a kick nessacarily with the different cam. and different cam equals different timing specs... time to how it starts and how it runs...not by the book..besides... timing is relative to alot of things (alititude, humidity, temperature)...the book timing is an average.....its not gonna cost ya nothing to retard it a tad and try it ya know..???all the other things are things to check yeah....but timing is one ya havent tried...right..???as for the bleed back when it sets... thats two things the percolation when you shut it off... and also the check valve,,, ya can put a cheap electric fuel pump in to let it prime and start first piston up if its a guddun....

basically all it does is replace the small wiring from the batt inside thru the switch & back to the starter operating the solenoid with large battery cable size wires, the small vehicle wiring is just operating the Ford relay which carries the load. trust me, it works-it even make the starter sound different, & seems to make them last forever. I first did this on a 350 powered Monza I had back in the '80s,,brian

Brian,

From a electro-mechanical standpoint, it makes NO sense.

Seeing is believing though, so I will trust all the folks that have done it and swear that it works.

Stuart

I can"t see it either but if it works I plan on trying it.

it has to do with amperage loss/voltage drop thru the wiring of the vehicle,resistance of the wiring(esp in a 30-40 y/o vehicle)causes voltage & amp drop. the starter pull-in windings need full supply to operate(esp when hot). the ford solenoid is just a relay(switch) supplying more amperage to the starter(using the larger cables). brian

Okay.

I think I get it.

You're using the Fjord Starter Solenoid's RELAY to power the solenoid on the starter?

The Binder has a ford type starter relay on it.. but I havent figured out if it is really necessary? It appears to be an added circuit, and the wires to the starter solenoid are not any bigger...

The Ford part does fix this problem. I had a 1983 Camaro that had the same problem as Gazim is having. I put a heat sheild on the starter solenoid, but it did not help. Finally, I used a Ford starter solenoid, and it completely cured the problem. At first, I too had my doubts because it did not make sense, but as 64fleetside describes, it does cure the problem.

brendan has it right, the Ford relay(it really is just a relay, as a 'solenoid' moves something) is powering the Chevy starter, works on the same priciple as adding relays to headlight circuitry. I know it just don't sound right(ford parts),, but it does work well,my buddy has a 69 C10 w/a blown 400 sm blk & Hooker 1 3/4" super comp headers, you can't even remove the starter w/o pulling the header-has never failed to crank after adding the frod relay,,brian

Hey Gzaim, easy fix for you... lets just swap engines and be done with it,, my 235 you hit the gas pedal once, hit the floor starter and you are on your way............just kidding....... I have heard a lot of 350's doing this,, just figured it was the hi-performance eng.. seems to common but what do I know.....good luck with it..........my only thought would be the timeing..............Fred

darn,now look what I started!!!!!!!! Google up M.A.D.Enterprises,15180 B Raymer St,Van Nuys CA 91405 and see if they have a wireing diagram for their kit called START'M UP.A picture is worth a thousand words.

HEY,

You guys were just messing with me, right!

As Brendan stated, Whiskey Tango Foxtrot!

Below is a 'paste' from the MAD site....

(2) SLOW CRANKING, a gr-r-runt, gr-r-runt. This kit won't fix it! You'll need to work with ignition timing, battery cables, the starter, and the rest of the system.


gr-r-runt Stu!

Reduce the timing a few degrees when it hesitates the next hot start. Easy to do and you will know right away what is causing the problem.

I was sitting here thinking about that second solenoid and the following popped into my brain:

"I'd like to pick up some Muffler Bearings, Johnson Rods... And a tub of Elbow Grease."



I've personally never worked on a V8 starter, but it makes sense to me that there would be a four gauge wire coming off of the battery to the main power stud, and then a wire from that to a relay to the solenoid stud.

The relay -- of course -- would be triggered by the "start" position on the keyswitch.

I'm just kind of surprised that nobody at GM thought that it made sense, too...

here's a link to the MAD website..

http://www.madelectrical.com/electrical-tech.shtml

My cousen used the 2 solenoid hook up on his 67 big block (396/402). it sure made him mad to put a ford part on his chevy, but it did fix the problem.
We use the 2 solenoid hook up on VW's but the problem with the VW's is too much wire. The positive wire from the battery go's from under the back seat to the ignition switch at the column and then back to the rear of the car to the starter. a distance of about 16 ft. So you install a ford solenoid under the car and use the ignition switch to activate that solenoid, and hook up the solenoid directly to the battery and the starter. Cutting the distance to 2 ft. The ford solenoid won't need as much power to make it activate.

Well all you guys are really confusing me. My battery is behind the seat. but I have used welding cable, real heavy to the starter solonoid. with equally heavy ground straps. The distance to the starter isn't only about 2 ft longer. are you saying I don't energize the solonoid strong enough to power the starter?? then why would it start fine when cold.? Will crank indefinately when cold.