The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area The Electrical Bay Just (not) getting started

I recently purchased my 52 Chevy AD. I am having difficulty getting it started. Brief (sort of )history. I drove it when I went to check it out. The seller delivered it on a flat bed due to the ancient tires. He told me then that he had left something on and run the battery down and had to jump it. It started right up when we unloaded. I left it parked about a week at the tire shop. When I went to pick it up, the battery was dead. They jumped it for me and I drove it home. I let it idle in the drive for about 15 minutes and it stalled out. I tried to restart and assumed it was out of gas. I got gas a few days later and the battery was dead. After trying to charge the battery with little success, not sure if it was the battery or charger, I sucked it up and bought a new one. The truck cranks and cranks but will not catch. And I 've had to recharge the new battery twice alredy. All the resident experts are baffled. We are getting gas to the carb and spark (albeit weak) to the plugs. Any thoughts? Points are new and adjusted. I'm just getting into this, a lifelong dream, and I'm frustrated. I see by the postings here that's not unusual. I hate to say IRWIPI, but it did! Thanks in advance for any help.

Welcome aboard, and congrats!

To me, it sounds like your truck has a charging system issue. In order to better help, I'm gonna ask some questions:

* When you have the truck running, what does the ammeter say? If it's slightly charging, then you're probably okay generator/regulator wise. If not, clean up the armiture and the brushes on the generator and see if that helps.

* Is this truck stock (6v) or has it been converted to 12v? What voltage battery are you running?

* Is your battery old?

* How does the wiring look? Has anything been spliced in anywhere? Are there shorts that might be draining things?

I'm sure that someone else will pipe up with more questions, but this should be enough to get us started.

I'll try and answer as best I can.

* I 'd like to answer this one, but the truck won't start. But, I can do this anyway.

* 6V. It has a resistor mounted on the firewall before the coil, which is a 12V coil

* Brand new battery - 6V Drainage is not from running without recharging, since it doesn't start, right? Nothing is on, as far as I can tell.

*Wiring...from the battery to the coil, starter, distributor and plugs look ok. There is a jumble of stuff under the dash (cassette player rigged up...haven't even tried that yet, turn signals, etc.) lots of flimsy connections there. A short could be possible but where to start? And would that cause it to not start with a fully charged battery?

bypass the ign resistor to start with, see if that makes for a fatter spark at the plugs - get a proper 6v coil, the 12v one may have internal resistance - check the dist cap and rotor, clean the points

take a battery cable off and put a VOM meter between the batt post and cable and see if there's some current flow with truck not running [or a 6v bulb if you've no meter] - that'll show if some of the hash wiring is causing the drain that runs the battery down

Bill

You surely have a drain on the battery, that is why it always goes flat. In other words, a short in the wiring system somewhere. You need to do some basic electrical troubleshooting to find the drain (short). It is a process of elimination. If you are at a loss how to go about it, any friend experienced with simple electrical work can show you how.
That may not be the only electrical glitch you have, but fix it first. If you don't, it will make you miserable and cost you a lot of money in batteries, because draining a battery ruins it.

Thanks for all the good ideas. I don't think the coil has internal resistance because it's labeled as requiring an external resistor, but I'll probably get a new 6V coil anyway to eliminate the coil from the suspects. I'll pull the cassette deck out and anything else that's added on to see if that helps. I don't have a meter, but the growing crowd hovering around the hood (of the truck) does. We'll try all the suggestions. I'm tired of recharging batteries. Plus it's almost getting warm here. I want to drive it. Soon I'll be pulling off body panels to fix and it won't be as easy.

Thanks for the help. I'll let you know how it goes.

Just out of curiosity, what color tags do your starter and your generator have?

-Brendan

Gee...don't know. Will have to check them out and get back to you. Working late tonight so it may take till Thursday night to check.

I can tell you that they just look dirty and
black.

There's a color on them you say? Hmm.

[snickers at the dirty and black comment]

Yeah. Underneath the grime, they'll have a red or a black outline.

You cannot use a resister with 6 volts. Get a proper coil & wire around the resister & I think it will start. When running see if the ammeter shows charge. If not remove the wire at the field term of the voltage regulator & ground it. If it shows charge the voltage reg. is defective. If not the generator is bad. Don,t get discouraged. These trucks are fun. It is a great sense of acomplishement when you fix something yourself. You can get great help on this websight. It would be great if I could learn to spell.

I will look for the red or black outline. I'll get a 6 volt coil and bypass the resistor.

Once (notice I didn't say if, indicates hope) I get it started I'll check the other stuff. That's if I can get close to it. I've drawn such a crowd of shade tree mechanics I haven't touched a tool myself in a week. I may get this fixed if I just keep them in food and drinks and keep them from fighting. They tend to dismantle stuff when they disagree.

Will get back with more information as soon as I can. Thanks again.

Question,would a 12 volt coil powered by a 6volt battery burn the points ? Deffinetly get a 6 volt coil and bypass the resistor,just to see if it starts.You may as well replace the cap,rotor,condensor,plug wires,plugs after you figure out what is wrong.Your original battery was probably shot,and your new one is being drained by so much cranking.Look for broken wires in the wiring harness.

Not starting can obviously have many possible causes, the ideas presented so far are all on target. You may consider that you could possibly have two problems (related or not):
1. Will not start:
- While it did start before, you did mention that the points are new & adjusted. Did the non-starting begin after the points were replaced/or shortly thereafter. Is it possible the points need to be re-checked.
- Possibly something on the distributor was disturbed while installing the points & eventually failed (e.g., broken wire, mis-aligned cap, etc.)
- Since it doesn't try to start at all, an open ignition resistor should at least allow it to start while the key is in the start position. You could temporarily short that resistor out just to check.
- If you get gas & spark, did you check to see if the rockers are going up & down (timing chain)
2. Draining of battery: could be anything, the previous posts seem to have explored that area pretty well.

The battery draining overnight should be considered as a separate problem to the one of not starting. You definitely don't want a 12v coil or a resistor with a six volt system. A weak spark that you observe in thin air means it has little chance of surviving in a cylinder fully charged with compressed air and fuel.

I'll try to address all the comments as best I can.

The points are new, but were installed before I took ownership so it's not that.

The 12V coil (with the external resistor) was also "as delivered" and running.

The "old" battery was not that old, but had certainly been run down. The new one was not drained entirely by cranking the engine, but by whatever is drawing on it. We have recharged it and I think it's ok. Also trying to recharge the old one for back up.

I agree it's more than one thing. I think the gas issue caused it to stall. Then the battery draining kept it from starting again originally. Now I'm not sure what the problem is. I don't believe the previous owner had trouble with the battery charging, so I'm leaning away from generator trouble. I think when he was showing the truck to sell it he turned on a lot of stuff he probably never used before and something is still pulling juice. If I was more electrically savvy I would probably have figured out what by now. If I could get it started I might have a chance to see the culprit in action. Not all the switches and dials work perfectly so I can't really tell when they're off or on. But that doesn't explain why it won't start with a full charge.

I've had two fairly knowledgable amatuer mechanics take a look. One's a licensed electrician. Both are also scratching their heads. We're all reconvening on Saturday for another go. I will spring for the new 6V coil, and disconnect all unessentials, like the heat(if you can call that unessential in this frigid weather...did I mention the driver side window is out?),turn signals and radio. And we'll see what happens. I will check for red or black outlines under the grime tonight.

I'll keep you posted. Glad I signed up. You've all been very helpful, at least I have ideas now.

will it start if you push it?

I would try pushing, but right now it's parked in a short driveway, on a busy street. No room to try. Trying it in the deep of night is a last resort at this point. Have this image of sitting in it at the bottom of the hill with no way to get it home...and the sun and traffic coming up.

just curious. dont give up on it or us....something will work out.. good luck...Fred

Not giving up...not my style. I'll get it running. Thanks for the support.

You said you has spark and fuel. Do you have compression? If so,do you have compression at the right time?

Spark + Fuel + Compression (at the right time) = Gotta Start
Good luck!

52 Ted

I would start at the basics and check the point gap, check no dirt between point contacts, pull plugs and check condition, check that it isn't flooding. The six volt system should not have a resistor. on 12 volt coils resistors cut the voltage down to about 7 or 8 volts,(i forget) to avoid burning points. if the ignition was left on with the engine not turning, you could have problems with the points. weak spark is a place to start. in cold weather i have used starting spray, but be carefull, and don't over use it, bad for engine.

also check to make sure it is timed,, does seem strange that it would run and now it wont but these old trucks can do strange things..

If nothing else,call the previous owner. Ask him if there is a special way to start it. I really think if you do away with the resistor and put a 6 volt coil on,you'll be close.Did anybody change the firing order? Check all ends of the plug wires and coil wire. just some thoughts !!

I went through all the same things when I first got my '48 running. My biggest problem (and probably the most obvious) was that I thought I had my points adjusted correctly, but I must have bumped something or moved them when I tightened them down and they were just ever so slightly open when they should've been closed.

1.dump the 12v coil/resistor for a 6v coil
2.check/replace spark plugs
3.check/replace cap,rotor,condenser
4.check/replace plug/coil wires
5.file and re-gap points
6.check, re-check, re-re-check firing order and
distributor position at TDC
7.remove,clean,reattatch every MAJOR electrical
connection. (batt., frame, engine ground,
starter, coil, dist.) leave no doubt that you
have all good connections!
8.check compression
9.check for adequate fuel supply

That should be your basic list of requirements to get an engine running. I have to believe that the external resistor is getting in the way since you mentioned a weak spark.

Remember, when these stovebolts are set-up properly, they usually only take a couple revolutions to come to life. Should be no need to crank the heck out of it. How else would you be able to start 'em with a hand crank?

Cam gear slipped on the boss ...........

Was the battery you took out a six volt? It must have been converted to 12 volts at one time because of the resistor and I don't think you can get a six volt cassette player. You probably jump started with 12 volts to get it started originally. Are the head lights rather dim when the battery is fully charged?

I've been using a 1981 12v HEI distributor out of a 250 on my 38 for years no problems with the 6v battery system so that would not prevent it from starting When you connect the fully charged battery do you have a sparkjump as you make the last connection even with all accessories and switches suppositly off? If you do you still have something drawing current.

Once you do get it started you need to remember that a generator does not charge the battery very well when the engine is just idling. You may need to repolarize the generator as well.
Good luck.

Jim

Wow ! Lots of good input.

I checked the generator and starter for color outlines. I couldn't see any color, but there are oval metal tags on the side. In the dim morning light even with my glasses I couldn't make out what was on them. Tomorrow during "Startfest" I'll get a better look.

I traded in one of the extra batteries the seller gave me for the new one. 6 volt.

I don't know how the cassette player is wired, I never turned it on.

Yes, there is a spark when I connect the battery. Guess that confirms the draw, will have to track that down.

I'm buying the new coil (6V) today. By Monday I should (moment of prayer) have good news!

I'm taking an Autobody class at the local Votech to deal with the body work and I'm dying to drive the truck there for "show and tell". So far carrying the tailgate in alone has stirred some interest, I can't wait to take the whole thing.

I'll let you know how it all goes.

DO get rid of the ignition resistor - as said above a 6V system should not have one

Bill

how do you polorize the generator

To find the battery draw wire a 6v lamp between the battery cable and the battery. With the draw it should light up. Then start turning off switches and unhooking wires until the lamp goes out. At that point you have found your problem.

To make sure your generator has the correct polarity after connecting it to the regulator.Skin the ends of a short piece of wire,16 or 18 gauge.Touch one end of the wire on the gen terminal of the regulator and momentarily touch the other end to the batt terminal on the regulator.Do this with the engine shut off.You have now polarized the generator.

Well folks. She's running!
Not without some excitement though.

Here's what happened.

First I read and reread all your ideas and suggestions. The more I thought about it, the more I was unsure what voltage the system was. I do not claim to be electrically saavy. I woke up convinced that it must be a 12V, because of the cassette player, even though the battery I traded in (given to me as an extra) was definitely a 6V. I got the old battery out and looked for anything that said 12 or 6... nothing. (Yes, counting the cells would've worked, but it has a cover over them and it's a small battery so I had never doubted.) My first helper arrived with a voltage meter and I made my suggestion. He looked it over and we tested it and it read 6. At that point another helper and another meter arrived. This one read 12. We double checked with a 12v light bulb. Aha! But, I had tried starting it with this battery before with no luck. So we took the wires off the resistor and from the resister to the coil. We cleaned the resistor and all the connectors very well and reattached. Now that we were working with 12V we decided to try to jump it off another vehicle. This required rolling the truck back in the drive to allow access. We remove the bricks from under the wheels (parking brake doesn't work) and they push. I go to hit the brakes and NOTHING! Pedal goes right to the floor!. It's a short driveway with a slope down to the street. I try jamming it into gear and popping the clutch which works for a second, but it slips out of gear and I roll into traffic. I crank the wheel to miss the far lane...not easy with a non-running truck...heck not easy when it's running... and thanks to fate and timing, I don't hit anyone and no one hits me. We push it to the side and restart our hearts. Now it's in the street AND not running. With our fingers crossed we hook up the battery and the jumper cables and I press the petal. Vroom. Goes right off.

So, now it runs but doesn't stop. *sigh* It had brakes when I parked it! We tried filling the master cylinder but it seems to be leaking although there was nothing under the truck before this. I get no resistance from the pedal. That is until the next day when I'm demonstarting for yet another "expert" and suddenly I have a little. (demon truck).

Our consensus. While I am embarassed at the voltage mix-up, since three more experienced mechanics didn't figure it out, I'm a little less so. It seems to have been a combination of voltage and connections, since this battery had failed before. I still need to find the drainng culprit, but for now will pull the negative. (installing a shut off). I'm not entirely sure that rolling didn't help the whole process..it sure got us pumping!

So I'm on to brakes. Still can't drive it, but it sure feels better to sit in a running truck.

Thanks again for all your help. I'm still using your ideas to track the power drainage. Luckily the generator is working and the battery is charging.

PS. The cassette player doesn't work anyway.

That is one hellarious story.I bet you needed to change your shorts after all of that.You most likely could have jumped started it rolling,but you did'nt have time to think about that.Glad you have it running.

I kind of figured that it was 12v when you said you had a 12v coil with a resistor. The resistor was probably there to take care of the whine caused by the ignition system.

That's why I asked about the colors on the tags.



Glad that you got it going. A full brake job, while expensive, is really quite easy to do.

At least, until you get to the rear wheels.

I recommend two guys with really big hammers.

I couldn't have jump started it...not that I was even thinking that clearly...but because we didn't have the battery hooked up. I was pleased with myself for thinking of putting it in gear, even though it popped out.

I still see no color on the tags...but if I had to guess I'd say black. It would match the grease.

Not planning a full brake job yet...maybe a new master cylinder...although this one does not look that old. The bleeding can't be that bad....can it? gulp.