The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area General Truck Talk Frame Rivets

One of the sites I found just uses something called a bucking bar that is simply a bar with the appropriate die and two C-clamps to hold it to the frame. The problem with backing it against the other side of the frame would be in many cases the rivet is inside of a channel or something is obstructing. This site also mentions heating the rivet while inside the hole with an OA Torch with medium tip. I am imagining that center channel assembly that goes across the AD frame. Thats where most of the damage normally is. Must be about 30 rivets in that assembly.

"The problem with backing it against the other side of the frame would be in many cases the rivet is inside of a channel or something is obstructing." ?????? Don't get that statement?

The rivet you are upsetting ,that is inside the channel, is not on the OTHER side. As far as an obstruction for the "jack" on the other side, just put a plate across the channel, or a block or solve that issue somehow when you get there. They don't seem to have that problem in the video. However hard it is to get to the rivet, it's the same problem for any bucking bar/tool method. You have to get the bucking bar tool head on it.
C clamp would not seem to be "fast acting", meaning you ain't got time to screw around clamping when a rivet is hot and ready. That's why they have to heat it in place. Heating a frame or welding on a frame is not good for it as explained right in the TF maintenance manual. Good luck on your endeavors. Denny and Grigg have the experience on this one. Follow their advice. I'm a Stove Bolter.

If your going to drill the rivet the most accurate way is to use a drill fixture with hardened drill bushings to aline to the rivet head, guess work doesn't always do the job.
And as far as a grade 8 bolt. First there are bolts that are much stronger than a grade 8. Second, a frame will twist and move some and sooner or later loosen the bolts, unless you use loctite retaining compound, these are not large strong frames like in a Kenworth truck. Rivets were used because they are fast to use in the factory setting, and will not loosen and tighten way more than a bolt of equal size will as well as carry more load. On a bolt the treads reduce the diameter that is carring the load, where as a rivet there are no threads to do that.

Wow, its not this complicated.
A bucking bar is as simple as a bar of steel with a rivet head shaped depression in it. The bar should be as big and heavy as you can stand to hold, if its not quite big enough hold some more mass behind it, a spare hammer or something. For the rivets on the flange of the frame where you can't hold something big behind it I've used a short bucking bar and a prybar against the opposite flange. Or a 2" square bar with the rivet head depression on the side, use vice grip clamps to quickly clamp it and the already hot rivet to the frame flange.

Any which way you go about it you have to be very quick, only have a couple seconds before the rivet is to cool to set properly. If set to cold the shank doesn't expand into the hole and in short time it'll loosen, don't be afraid to punch a new one out and give it a second try.

Bucking bars are something you can and should make yourself. I haven't found a source to buy them from. You can be creative and make them crooked or offset to fit around obstructions. I've heard the term "*" used to describe a bucking bar, get the picture?

Grigg

Bolts with a locking feature, such as a normal lock washer, properly torqued, will NOT loosen because of twisting or the whole world is in trouble! I don't think anyone would install a bolt without a couple flat washers, a lock washer and a nut. America has been bolting stuff for a 100 years. A grade 5 is plenty, plenty strong for AD/TF frame components. I don't care if a person uses bolts or rivets, just clarifying some info. Grigg: This is a family show. (PG13), whoa! there horsey! We know what crooked and offset means.

Hey Grigg, these city guys have a hard time talking about animal
anatomy, but I go the picture.
A couple of the films that I linked to show a big old chunk of
round stock bout an inch and a half in diameter and a foot or
so long and the bucker leaning into it with all his body
weight.
That pneumatic bucker they're using on the frame would be real
nice to have but it's really a luxury.
When you boil this down to the basics, all you really need is a
rivet gun like Ken brought up on page 1 and a chunk of scrap
round stock.

DG

Exactly!
And a couple strong quick folks and a way to heat a rivet.

Bolting on something like an engine part is different than thin sections of frame. Again the bolts in the same hole as a rivet can not be as strong cross section!

Didn't say bolts were stronger. A 3/8 gr 5 bolt tensile strength is about 6000 PSI. That should do it. I said they won't come loose and I said I don't care which is used. Don't need to be Quoted. That is posting what I said twice and is a way to agree with someone not attack someone. What's the beef?

Us "city guys" here in the the "West's Most Western Town" of Scottsdale Arizona, we don't study that part of a horses anatomy as much as the easterners do.

Yeah, like I said Ken, "big city guys."

dg

I think you ment a load of 6000 lbs. and that is not per square inch. http://www.almabolt.com/pages/catalog/bolts/proofloadtensile.htm These loads are not in psi.

actually they are in psi, of stress area regarding tensile strength, so don't over-tighten .... but what counts for frame joints is sheer strength - really more important

Bill

Bolts do not fit the holes like a swelled up rivet shank. To use bolts, you should drill the hole to the next bigger bolt so the shank of the bolt fits tight to the holes. If the bolt is short with threads all the way to the head, it will not fit right either. To eliminate the twisting movement of the frame and attaching part, the holes must be filled 100% to simulate a solid mass, thats one of the reasons rivets work so well, zero wiggle room once in place.

What the movie, Master Hands by Jim Dandy films (google it), they show a 1936 Chevrolet being factory built. The rivets are put in cold on the assembly line with some very stout riveters.

Joe

Yeah, 'shear' strength using bolts is inadequate for riveted frames. Its not all that much difference, and it does work, but if you have a choice, there was a reason they used rivets with such thin metal in the first place. I also hear that if you put a V8 in these trucks, you should box in the original frame structure. This whole issue depends on if you want to do it right, or roll the dice. From the great responses I have gotten from this thread, its not that hard to just re-rivet with a small investment in tools.

I wanted to say what happened to using good common sense but decided against it. After all this I think it's "each to his own" as I see todays vehicles rolling down a nice paved highway instead of crawling over terrace rows and bouncing in ruts on a dirt road, like it was "back then".
...I'm sorry, we were talking about "originallity weren't we"

Yes, it should say 6000 lbs tensile strength calculated using 92,000 PSI tensile strength for the steel.

Not true, the tensile strength of the steel in the bolt is closer to 100ksi. Thats 100,000 pounds per square inch. If you look at the table it shows the area
that you will find by taking the minor or small diameter, at the root of the threads and use pi X r*2
that is pie times the radius squared. If it was a surface area of 1 inch then the load it would take is 100,000 pounds, that is if my 100ksi is true and correct. So then you take your area you just figured out 1/x it and divide that into the 100K to get the
actual stress that particular fastener bolt or rivet should take in tension.
I guess Bartamos figured out what the stress should be for the steel.

The formula is PI times R-squared times 92,000. No dividing. At any rate 6000 +/- LBS is 3 tons. If a crossmember has 4 bolts per side, the strength is approx. 12 tons per side. Should be adequate for most speed bumps. The numbers are so high it does not matter if you are talking shear, tensile or yield.

When you get this accomplished post a few bucking pics of the process. Nice attention to detail, thanks

Yeah I seem to figure out how to make something more complicated than it needs to be. Both methods come up with the same answer. Thanks for the correction.

Dads50, I took the time to watch your video.. very very cool. Your son will always have that memory and it looks like you did a wonderful job on the truck. Made me miss my grandkids! Hats off to the wife for all the behind the scenes support as well! The one thing I wish I had was a decent video camera to help me document the resto process. Nice work!

Thanks for your comments, I appreciate it.

I've referenced the site in your signature line quite a bit. It was a big help for me along with the Stovebolt site.

Good luck for your frame restoration.

Here are a few pictures of the riveting hammer I have, an Ingersoll Rand size 6A which has a 6" stroke and a piston 1-1/16" diameter and 2-1/2" long. The literature says it's good for hot rivets up to 7/8" diameter.
https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/E9uU_nly--8haVqpHJNYyNMTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0?feat=directlink
https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/XQo8LnB5GKcUCGEF4Y-xKNMTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0?feat=directlink

Lots of good info here under the "detailed description" tab.
http://www.eairtool1.com/servlet/the-1467/Ingersoll-Rand-6A-Pneumatic/Detail

One picture in there shows a model one size smaller being used on a "automobile frame" looks like a car form the 30's or late 20's by my guess.
Other good riveting pictures in that link too.

Grigg

I have done this, instead of bolts, I used early Camero Wheel studs, they are serrated already so they will tightup , and they look just like Rivets , because you only see the what should be a Rivet

Good info ringgear! They do almost look like rivets and are 7/16-20 thd, about the size of a swollen rivet. The serration would be larger than 7/16. I have to think about it, probably the serration would only "dig" into one of the thicknesses being held but that makes it better, tolerance-wise. I like it! Only thing is you can only buy one length, but can cut off if too long.

I have been working non-stop on this issue for weeks now. I have the OA torch gear coming, the proper rivet setter for the air hammer, creating the custom bucking bars and the rivets to put a crossmember and battery box that was bolted to the frame when I got it, properly riveted. I will keep you all posted on the progress. When I am successful, I will create a complete how-to on this procedure. Riveting was a very mysterious procedure but hopefully it will turn out to be a piece of cake! So far the cost is even halfway reasonable.

Devek, way to go. I'm sure lots of other folks besides me, are looking forward to your tutorial. What a great Teck Tip to add to the list. Before long we can build one from scratch.....oh, we already to that somewhat
Thank You for taking the time to share. Just wish you lived a little closer to me!!!

Update! I got all the stuff together, OA Torch with a medium rosebud, Cheapo Air Chisel, Rivet Setter for the air chisel, homemade bucking bars, clamps, etc and IT WORKED FLAWLESSLY!! The very first rivet I set looks as good or better than some of the rivets that Chevy did back in the day. I will write a complete procedure on how to do this forthcoming. My wife took all the pics we needed for the procedure, so I should have it done soon. FYI, I heated the part of the rivet that was sticking out the hole (3/8 rivet) very very red, then drove them home. After I did a few, I let them cool, took a pair of heavy vise grips and tried to turn them in the hole. Fuggetaboutit!! Nice and tight. So, just to appease my friends here (and myself) about this procedure not heating the entire rivet thus not a good tight fit, I ground off the head clean, then tried to punch it out of the hole. It was completely squashed HARD into the hole to the point where I had to use a very large punch and a very large hammer to get it out. It took several hard swings to get it out. VERY VERY STOUT. The reason this works so well is the rosebud head on the torch. It not only heats the rivet, but the hole and to an extent the surrounding metal. The rivet squashes to look just like any of the rivets on the frame. You cant tell the difference! Just thought you all would like to know! (The air chisel I used was a BP Tool (very old) that I had sitting around the shop. My dad must have bought it and there is no part number that I can find. Good news is, you dont need a very heavy air hammer/chisel for this.) More coming soon! Thanks to all of you who helped with my stupid questions!

Devek, just a Thank You for following up on this thread. I will probably never set a rivet the rest of my life but at least you have helped increase my knowledge which, I think, is very important.
Leaders go where there is no trail and leave a path for others to follow. Thanks for taking your time to do this.

So after 7 pages of discussion here and in other forums seeking answers, I got the entire procedure for doing this done. I am in the process of getting it uploaded to this forum, but meanwhile, you can find it at www.speedprint.com/Deves50 in the how-to section. Please critique it, let me know if there is something that doesn't make sense. Meanwhile, special thanks to Grigg, Ken and Dennis for the PM's they had to endure to clarify things and the over the top input!

I haven't read the procedure yet. But it would be very difficult to heat the rivet while it is in the hole. Well what I mean is the frame is also going to be heated, not good. If what others say about rivet squeezes being used at the factory then they did not heat the rivets. As far as setting tight in the hole after being set, a cold rivet will do that just fine, just need the right pressure to accomplish it.

this is a pretty old topic but does anybody have a source for Big Bolt rivets and setting accoutrements ?

thanks,
Greg

Since I did this myself and understand all of the ramifications of it, you can get your rivets from Byler Rivet, or RivetsOnline (Jay Cee Rivet). Follow the procedure and life is good.

There is no difference whatsoever between:

1) Heat the rivet in a rivet heater or outside of the frame.. heat, heat, heat... take out of heater, expose to air, use a heat damping pliers to hold the rivet, install in frame.. cool, cool, cool, cool and RIVET! and...

2) Heat the rivet inside the hole making it white hot clear to the head, then RIVET!

Ive tried it both ways and its just more expedient with the SAME result (possibly hotter) following the procedure. I am sure this contentious, but its how I see it. DO it the way you feel is right.

Same tools apply. Good air hammer with rivet head, GOOD clamps, Oxy/Acet and a good helper. After using Grigg as my professional advisor, I tried it and got it perfect the first time. We have great people here that really step up!

Deve, where did you find stainless steel rivets? Yuk, Yuk, Yuk.

While Deve's results look good on the outside I'm still a firm believer in heating the bare rivet then installing and setting.
I don't like heating the frame as much as is necessary to get a preinstalled rivet white hot. With a good plan and helper heating and then installing can be done very quickly.

So while I did try to answer questions and advise best I could
***I do NOT approve of Deve's method #2, heating the rivet in the frame***

Grigg

Yeah, and either way, you are still doing it wrong because Chevy put them in cold under high pressure. I am really sold on doing it yourself however you decide. Bolts are not the answer. The rivet expands and fills all of the hole during its cooling and makes for the tightest bond I have ever seen.

Hardest part of this is the bucking. Once you have it in the hole, having something SOLID to back it up for the final riveting stage. I didn't have Bubba so 1/2" steel and very large, very heavy C-Clamps did the trick.

Guess we'll have to give this cadaver a shot with the paddles,
thought it was dead, but no, it just keeps raising it's head.

You can set a rivet head cold as was done on these
frames at the factory, if all of the parts of the
rivet are cold, the shank will fill the hole
completely before the head is formed.

You can set a rivet head hot, if all of the parts of
the rivet are hot, as was done in the youtube video
linked to last year or the way the iron work was
assembled in the last century, the shank will
completely fill the hole before the head is formed.

You can not set the rivet properly if the formed head is hotter
than the shank, the formed head may look pretty but the shank
will not fill the hole. Not filling the hole is the problem with
using a threaded fastener. It is not possible to expand the
shank of a threaded fastener in the hole. The exception would
be as discusse months ago, a serrated bolt shank that is
slightly larger than the hole, and that would not give 100%
contact as a properly set rivet does.

If you clamped the rivet in the frame cold, then heated the
shank to form a head only the very end closest to the formed
head inside the frame will get hot and the shank will not fill
the hole. Any one that has formed a piece of steel with heat in
their bench vice knows that the hottest part of the metal is the
most plastic and will yield first.

A simple non-destructive test of tightness for a rivet is a ring
test. If the shank has filled the hole, then when you rap the
factory head of the rivet it will 'ring' with a sharp metallic
sound, which you not only hear but can feel with your hand. A
lower pitch, dull or dead return indicates a loose or improperly
set rivet shank. Try it on your frame with a good rivet and the
bolt next to it.
And that's the truth....raspberrys.........

Denny Graham
Sandwich, IL

Yep, that's right. My procedure covers it all. Its on my web site. I tested everything and anyone doing it the way I did will be very happy with the result. Its not only dead, its been buried for years in a very secret location only known by people who swear to never go down another peanut gallery hole.

You can test your rivet job by cutting off the head and TRYING to remove the shank from the hole. A large punch and huge hammer and some very dented frame material later, it pops out. Its one thing to understand the ramifications of it all, its another to insult peoples intelligence. Thank you!

Not meant as an insult Deve, just trying to set the record
straight as to the proper way to set a rivet. Based on a couple
thousand years of development you can understand why I have
doubts that there is anything new to be added to the correct
process.

DG

Proper is all relative to what your experience is Denny. If you haven't taken the time to see what the actual proven heat differences are between the two methods, all you can do is relate to what you are used to. That's fine and all, but there is ZERO difference between:

1) Heat the rivet in a rivet heater or otherwise.. a) take it out of the heater COOL, b) put it in the hole COOL, c) have a person standing there with a bucking bar and push a cold bar on the hot rivet COOL, then d) Once you are all ready hit it with the gun. OR

2) Put the rivet in the hole, use a bucking bar that's clamped on because you don't have a helper using a 1/2 bucking bar that's clamped onto the work solid COOL, then heating the rivet from the other side until its white hot and just about ready to curl, COOL, then setting the torch on the holder and driving it home. The frame isn't heated very much at all because you are concentrating your heat on the rivet. I suspect no more heat transfer than the other method. Maybe a little, but insignificant.

I know you guys are skeptical, but when you are skeptical, TEST it to see the difference. Use an IR gun so you can be really critical. I had a helper that day as shown in the pic, but he is the town blacksmith (92 years old) and he showed me how to remove the need for two people. After testing the rivets, he was right.. as he always has been. And you of course are wrong on this one. Its one thing to have all of those years of experience, its another to trash ideas you haven't tried yet. But people do that all the time here. SO I call them out when they do. AND apologize when I am proven wrong. Not today Im afraid.

PLEASE for the love of GOD know what you are talking about. Test the differences before trashing other peoples ideas. Its a great way to do this when you don't have a helper. We don't all have Union memberships in our past where they insisted on having two people to do the job. In my little ole town we make do and pride ourselves on doing BETTER quality work because its truth, justice and the American way! Not some communist concept of forcing a job to take more people than is necessary.

Either trust me on this, or disprove me. Otherwise, stay with what you are good at. Have we set the record straight yet?