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Joined: Sep 2012
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b10
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Betsys temp stay at about 155 with new themo in it,is that ok ,not much heat.I heard that rings spin in the lands while the engine is running.YES _NO ?

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'Bolter
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No, the rings do not spin on the piston.
And 155° is way to cool for a 235 to run at.
She's much more effecient at 180° where she was
designed to run.
Denny Graham
Sandwich, IL

Last edited by Denny Graham; 02/13/2013 11:35 AM.

Denny G
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'Bolter
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Denny, are you sure? I'll have to hunt, but seems like a few years back a cut away engine was spun over with a view for the rings and the rings did slowly turn in the lands.

I wouldn't think they would. In fact, I would have bet good money they wouldn't.

I'll see if I can find that video some where.

Maybe some one else can chime in here that knows more than I do. Wouldn't take much to know more than I.

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I only asked about the rings (rotating or spinning on pistons) because the machine shop guy i got new rings from told me they do and i did not know my self.I was always told to to stagger the ring openings when you install them.My shop guy said thats OK but they will not stay in the same place and will rotate or spin for the life of the engine or they stick. the new thermo is i a 180 i think. yet gauge is at 155-160.BAD GAUGE maybe.

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The rings will spin...

155 won't give you much heater in the winter;)

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rings do not spin

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Cruising in the Passing Lane
Cruising in the Passing Lane
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how do you know it's "about 155"? you could have got a defective stat [not uncommon] or a failing sender or the gauge could be off, not bad, just wrong .... on a new-to-you old truck always use a laser pointer digital thermometer to check over the system, read near each side of the stat housing as it warms up and find out what temp the stat opens, read the top and bottom of the rad and check around the engine, can learn a lot that way and by comparing all that to the reading of the gauge you'll know what it's telling you, the old gauges aren't real precision, just meant to indicate when things get too far away from "normal", which is why most years don't have actual numbers

and I've understood the rings might move from the staggered position you start them at, but I've never heard they "spin" life-long, which would be pretty tough with them pressing out against the cylinder walls and being subject to normal compression

Bill


Moved over to the Passing Lane

"When we tug a single thing in nature, we find it attached to the rest of the world" ~ John Muir
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I've read and heard passionate arguments on both sides of the rings spinning debate. I really don't know because I've never been in the cylinder of a running engine to watch. grin
One side.

Other opinions.

Last edited by Tiny; 02/13/2013 6:14 PM.

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They don't spin...


until you start the engine.

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If piston rings don't spin, then why do two stroke pistons use a pin in the ring lands to keep the end gap in the proper place



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I think there's a definition of "spin" that might not really apply here

Bill


Moved over to the Passing Lane

"When we tug a single thing in nature, we find it attached to the rest of the world" ~ John Muir
"When we tug a single thing on an old truck, we find it falls off" ~ me
Some TF series details & TF heater pics
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I will get a new Sunpro gauge and see where it sets. The one in betsy is from 1951. NO one was ever inside a cylinder to see what happens and i figured if they rotated why stagger the rings,just put them in.

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Originally Posted by red58
on a new-to-you old truck always use a laser pointer digital thermometer to check over the system, Bill

Get one of these chingadera's as bill points out
...click...


smile

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'Bolter
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Well guys, I guess I'll have to stand corrected on the rings “spinning”. It seems
like half the answers are yea and the other 50% are neh. Although I’ve
reassembled engines before after the machine work was finished, I do not by any
stretch of the imagination conceder myself an ‘engine builder’. I’m not one who
works with engines every day for a living. Nor have I ever had an engine that I’ve
reassembled run up on a dyno to test my work.

I've heard from Jerry recently, he’s not lost in the woods as we thought, and he
says he's seen them rotate in an engine running at moderate speed on a dyno.

Also read this in the link that Richard posted from the Sacramento Sky Ranch:
"Rate and direction of piston-ring rotation varied with cylinder-head pressure and
engine speed. Rates of rotation as high as 1 rpm at an engine speed of 1000 rpm
were observed."
And from Tiny’s “Opinions”: One poster says they rotate because of the
crosshatching due to honing. Another one takes a more comprehensive view of it
and says, “constant loading and unloading in a cylinder. Plus hone pattern, any
out of round, piston rock, uneven radial pressure, even rod side clearance will
make a ring rotate.”

Not really addressing the subject of ring rotation but adding to the understanding
of ring performance is this interesting article about the ring gap from Total Seal:
http://www.totalseal.com/pdf/ts_rings_article.pdf

And this opinion, which is both yeh and neh in the same breath:“It is considered
good practice to build a new engine with the ring gaps staggered around the
circumference of the bore. This means that any escaping gas must negotiate a
labyrinth before escaping past the rings. However, while the engine is running,
the rings will tend to rotate around the piston and not remain in the position as
fitted. Many rings will then stick in one spot at random and remain there for the
life of the engine. For this reason, ring position during build cannot be considered
to be important although most engine builders would feel uncomfortable
assembling an engine with the gaps aligned.”
With a little research, I’ve found that there’s a weeks worth of reading one can do
on this subject. After taking a logical look at it I’m convinced that the rings can
indeed move around on the piston. But I still say they don’t “spin” on the piston.

And Gus, I did buy one of those when they were on sale for about thirty bucks.
Fun to play around with and surprisingly accurate, at least it is when compared to
the oven thermometer.
DG

Last edited by Denny Graham; 02/14/2013 7:52 AM.

Denny G
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I agree that a ring can and may rotate some on a piston. My opinion is that the ring material is harder than the aluminum most pistons are made of, if the rings were spinning and turning on the piston the ring lands in the pistons would wear and cause problems. Just my opinion on the subject.

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That's an interesting theory. The piston moves up and down in a very hard cast iron cylinder. It is usually the cylinder that wears first. So, I would think ring grove wear to not ever be an issue.

Last edited by DavidF; 02/15/2013 10:03 AM.
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Rings do rotate in the grooves. Not only are there xray floroscopy that proved that in the 50's, I also proved it by careful assembly and disassembly when I was a 16 year old, hmm that was many years ago. And the arguement about soft Aluminum and hard rings, well there is lots of info about using Al as a bearing, rings rotating aren't going to wear either the iron, steel rings or the Al piston much because they will not be loaded very much when they are doing to rotate thing, if they were loaded to the point of wearing (adhesion, lack of lube or ? / etc) then they would lock and not move.


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'Bolter
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Any packs of rings that I have seen with instructions, always have advised staggering the gaps.


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Yes you do stagger the rings, but they don't stay there. All the engines I have ever torn apart show a even wear pattern on the ring lands. I have never seen a carbon spot where the rings stayed in one place. And I do have a big two stroke railroad engine ( 4.790" bore) and the rings are pinned, so I assume they must rotate. Spinning and rotating are two different speeds in my mind.

I guess I'am on the "yes they do" side.

Joe

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Moderator: Welcome Centre, Southern Bolters, Legion Hall
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Yes,matilda, rings do "rotate". Speed of rotation, uh, unknown as best I can tell but they do rotate.

Last edited by Achipmunk; 02/15/2013 7:21 PM.

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Originally Posted by b10
I will get a new Sunpro gauge and see where it sets. The one in betsy is from 1951.
electric?

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The original one in the dash,Goes no more than 160. the new mechanical sunpro sets at about 179 and works well.I cannot believe the help and info you guys can come up with ,most of the old timers around here are tight lipped about what they know and it takes a long time to get them to open up. Holy crap i guess I am a old timer cause i have been bustin my knuckles since 1969. THANKS for the info!


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