The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Engine Shop Using 20W50 mineral oil in a 216 engine

So far I am still busy with the metal work of my 48 Fleetmaster that was converted to a pickup .
My C15 Canadian COE has no progress this year.
I asked this question already in the VCCA forums (been a passenger car ) but I know more people here are familiar with the 216 engine been the work horse of many trucks
Since a few weeks I drive in my *new* 48 Fleetmaster . She was garaged for more as 30 years. Her condition was reasonable so after a years work I managed to get her on the road again. I should like to use SAE 20 mineral oil as mentioned in the manual but that is hard to find here in The Netherlands. I am using 10W30 for now. Castrol here offers SAE 30 and 20W50 oils specially formulated for classic cars. I guess SAE 30 is no good as temperatures here are never higher as 90 f so it leaves the 20W50 as a possible choice. From a search I made I did not find anyone commenting on using it on a 216 engine.
My questions are: Does anyone have experience with using 20W50 mineral oil on a 216 engine or should someone say that it is too viscous for it.
Thank you
Jianis

An oil formulated for classic cars would be good. Any straight mineral oil today will be the absolute cheapest oil you can buy. Also before synthetic oil, transmissions used mineral oil. You certainly wouldn't want to use that.

20W-50 will be fine to run, no problem at all. On a cold start, it flows like a 20 weight, and it lubricates like a 50-weight when hot. The oil pressure will be slightly lower than it would be if you ran a straight 30, because the physical thickness of the oil is less. 20W-50 does not get thicker as it heats up, but the additives in it allow it to lubricate as if it was heavier when hot. The only real disadvantage to straight 30 would be slow oil pressure buildup due to thick oil on a cold start. Below-freezing temperatures require the thinner 20 weight to keep the bearings from starving for oil before the pressure comes up.
Jerry

I don't profess to be an expert on oil by any means but I've read several articles that advise when using a multi viscosity oil, after a few warm-up, cool-down cycles the viscosity modifiers break down and essentially turn the oil into a straight weight oil approximately half way between the listed viscosities. For example if you use a 10W30 you end up with close to a straight 20 weight viscosity oil. Is that factual? Beats me but I've read that numerous times in different automotive publications. Something to consider. Gene Schneider over at the VCCA recommends 10W30 year around. I have used 15W40 year around for several years with no adverse effects.

Hey Jianis nondetergant 30W would be a safe choice. as I do'nt know about european mineral oils. I'am in Washington state USA. Just above the 45st parallel in latitude. So we should have similiar wheather. hope that helps Floyd.

I've always been told to run non-detergent oil in my 216,and I've always run cheap SAE 30 weight...SAE 20 in the colder months.

Would it hurt to run a different kind of oil or is there a better way than what I've been doing?

after a few thousand warm-up, cool-down cycles

Jianis, et al.,

Here is a link to some information on motor oil viscosity that may be useful. Click on the "SAE J300..." link in the link to see the viscosity specifications for the SAE grades. Note that, at 100C, the viscosity of the 20W-50 grade oil will be about 75% greater than the viscosity of a 30 grade oil (either a straight grade 30 or a 10W-30). The 20W-50 grade oil meets the low temperature cranking requirement at -15C (+5F) and the pumping requirement at -20C (-4F). The straight 30 grade oil does not need to meet any low temperature requirement; it may be too thick to pump or crank at below-freezing temperatures. Note that there is no 30W grade oil in the SAE standard, only a 30 grade. There is a 20W and a 20 grade oil; it is the only oil grade number that shares both a "W" (for winter?) and a non-W designation. The "W" grades all need to meet a minimum viscosity requirement at high temperature (100C or 212F), but the non-W grades do not need to meet any low temperature requirement.

When I had my first service station job in 1957, we stocked oil in the 10W, 20W-20, 30, and 10W-30 grades.

With regard to the "breakdown" of the viscosity index (VI) improvers of a multi-grade oil, here is a link to a discussion in another forum that presents some real data. The VI improvers in some of the samples "broke-down" worse than others. The worst case dropped the viscosity of a 15W-40 grade oil at 100C from the middle of the 40 grade range to the upper end of the 30 grade range.

I'm not sure if all of this answers the original question of what oil to use in your 216. Is this the Castrol 20W-50 oil for Classic Cars? The viscosity may be higher than you need at engine operating temperatures, but the 20W cold rating would probably be better for cold starts than a straight 30 grade oil.

Hoyt

Thank you all for your answers the topic seams to be interesting.

Grenvelge

The classic oils from Castrol are fine I am only concerned about the warming up time that they should be too viscous for the 216.

Jerry

In theory the 20W50 oil sounds right but I am not sure about its ability for fine atomization when cold that is needed for the splash lubrication of the conrod bearings for the 216.

Tiny

I see your concern about the braking down of multigrades but the average classic car should not make too many cycles between oil changes unless it’s a daily driver I am also thinking of using a modern 15W40 after cleaning the oil pan and passages (if I ever come so far).I also posted this question in the vcca forums and Gene recommended….10W30.

Floyd.

The Netherlands should have lower temperatures as Washington state so normaly I should use a W20 or sae 20 but they are hard to get here.

Green

Normaly I also should not use a modern oil unless I was 100% sure that my oilways and pan was clean and change oil very often or modify the 216 to a fool filtration system.
Panic
That is right for modern cars
In my daily driver I change oil every 19000 miles that’s about 1500 cycles and oil comes out as clean as it goes in.
I think the 216 should only make 2500 miles and the oil should be completely black and useless when it comes out.

Hoyt

My question was more philosophical as practical.
I am more or less aware of what goes on with oils. My main question is what is the long term effect of different oils on the conrod bearings of the 216 the first few minutes of operations before the oil comes to the right temperature.
In practice I am taking a big risc using modern 10W30 oil without knowing if my oil pan and oil ways are clean.
It’s a different Castrol product that is made in England here is the link: http://www.castrol.com/castrol/sect...Id=9014107&contentId=7027099#7094382

Jianis

Jianis,
I use straight 40 in my truck year round. 30 leaks out with too much enthusiasm.

Now, when it gets cool outside, below 5 degrees celsius, I use a block heater, and most importantly, a magnetic heater on the oil pan, to warm the oil before starting.

Even still, when first started, the oil pressure is 15 or more pounds at idle. Just like in the manual, when you start out driving in the cold, you want to keep the engine rpms low, and keep the oil pressure below 30 pounds.

Cleaning the pan out is a great, and easy way to judge the condition of your engine. I imagine your fleet master is similar to my Pontiac, you have to undo parts of the steering to get the oil pan off it. Cleaning the pan out with kerosene after its removed is quick and easy. If you don't have time to do that, just use non-detergent 30 oil. The manual for my Pontiac recommends a slow switch from non detergent, to detergent oils. I always go by the book, I figure that the engineers who built them, knew what they were doing. I think a bigger risk than having some sediment in the pan and dippers, is having sediment in the rocker tube. When I took the rocker arms off of my truck, I was surprised to see that the tube was half full of sediment.

One bad thing about running thick oil in cold weather is the timing gears run dry until the oil thins. Assuming you still have a period engine the oiling to the gears isn't pressurized, it's a gravity fed drip.

Tiny: Sweetie reminds me of Sam Spade driving a Plymouth coupe in one of the old B&W films. Really great looking car.

Straight 30 weight (i.e., "30") is thick enough to seriously drag down the starter speed of many of my cars, V8, VW, slant 6, etc. when it's cold. They all have scary tappet noises for 10 minutes also.
I'd use 10W30 instead of 20W50.

Mr.Lang

By the Chevrolet you also have to remove the longer tierod for getting the pan out but I have to wait for that till I get a set of seals.
One of my next searches will be t to find one of these electric coils that goes behind a freeze plug and warms up the water it seams to me to be good alternative that should also help in getting faster warm air in the car.
Oil sediment is everywhere. Before starting my 216 for the first time, after her long sleep, I used hot air to bring the engine to a reasonable temperature before tapping the oil out, some 15% of it was sediment in a form of gel. Next I filled it with new oil, removed the distributor and using a portable drill with a chopped long screwdriver I drove the oil pump. The oil pressure indicator showed some 30psi and oil came eventually out on top of the rocker arms.
After starting the engine a few times the oil pressure was steady at just below the 15psi mark.
I taped the oil out after a some 60 minutes and lots of sediment came out again.I then filled the engine with a mixture of about 50% kerosene and 50% oil started it and left it idling for 10 minutes. What came out of the oil pan after that was really black.The next oil change after some 100 miles the oil was looking better. Now I am another 100 miles with the new oil and the oil stays finally clean.

Tiny

Your Sweety is really a very nice car it is my favorite classic.
Some 20 years ago back home in Crete Greece I spotted one of them in a backyard I was in love with it in first sight, that was the only one in the island and in need of a total restoration.I found the owner but the man is a Multimillionaire so my small savings should not impress him He did not want to part with it as it was from his late father and he was planing to restore it.Last year I learned that he gave it to a local garage for restoration but they did not do anything with it for many years and they left it outside so its now completely rusted.
Jianis

Panic

All your car engines seam to be in reasonably good condition if sae 30 makes then turn difficult when cold.
The bearings of older engines are mostly near or over their limits so oil has plenty of space and that results in less friction.
I am considering to use 15W40 for in the summer and 10w30 for winder unless I find a supplier of W20 or sae20 here in the Netherlands

Jianis

30 also makes the idle speed when cold much slower, requires a different choke setting.

What is considered "non-detergent" oil. Where can I find this? Is this any of the store brand oil?

Man this is an old thread. About any parts house should be able to get you non detergent if they don't stock it. Almost no one uses it any more. IMHO if using detergent oil makes your engine use oil it's teetering on the edge of a rebuild anyway.

I know Advance Auto Parts carries it. They use to have it in the Shell brand but now I think they carry it in Castrol, Valvoline and their store brand.

I use 10-30 all year, I wouldn't even consider 20-50. Thats my opinion. The main consideration is having oil in it, people use oil from all ends of the spectrum, as long as it is for engine use, anything seems to work, as someone somewhere will swear by one or the other.

I have used 20W-50 oil in 216 (babbit rod bearings) and 235 (insert rod bearings) engines that were old and had low oil pressure. My guess is that oil might have gotten a little extra life out of those engines. In any case, I doubt if that oil caused any harm/damage.

Just to stir the pot....... I use straight 50 in my 235. My bearing clearances are wide, at 4 thou, and it's happy. During the winter, I have a block heater, and more importantly, an oil pan heater.

( this is a different "mill" than I had two years ago!) Hahaha

I ran staight 30 in mine all year round, never had the first problem with starting it, evne in the dead of an Illinois winter.

Tractor Supply has it.

I'm pretty sure they don't have tractor supply in the netherlands. I also can't even begin to conceive of why you would want to use non-detergent oil in any thing other than an air compressor. Well I guess full out race engines.

Cold 50 weight flows through a bearing like asphalt flows through a drinking straw.