The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Engine Shop Restarting Problems - Doesn't make sense!!!

Well, my ole 1953 3100 w/original 216 is running & starting better than ever. It is strong, idles perfect and runs like a champ. Starts strong when cold in about 1-2 seconds. That is the good news.

Bad news - when engine is warm, even slightly (running 3 mins or 30mins) if I turn the key and try to restart, the starter sounds like it is dying and has no juice. Problem is if I leave it off for about 10 mins, starts up like a champ with full power. The starter is new, coil new, Optima 6V battery new, new 6V really heavy cables, good grounds, etc.

Someone mentioned before on the difficulty with starting an engine when warm due to the internal engine components expand and makes it harder to turn. Can someone explain this? Still sounds electrical to me, but I don't know what else to check. How do I test for this? I cannot imagine what else it could be at this point.

Thanks so much for the support!!!
Andy

You might want to check the timing and see of its to far advanced. If all connections are good, cables properly connected I'd have a draw test done on your starter to see if it needs to be rebuilt.

Rebuild the starter? The starter is newly purchased complete rebuild. I had it load tested after buying it recently from Jim Carter. The old starter did the exact same thing. How would the timing only affect things after the engine was warm? It sounds like it is straining to spin, ruuuh, ruhhh, ruuuuh......like the battery is dead. However, the battery is perfect.

There is a bushing in the non-drive end of the starter, if none of the above ideas work, I have replaced these bushings(stock GM part) since when they get worn the starter is less powerfull w/ the armature being offset.

How cold is cold in LA?

Just because parts are new doesn't mean they can't be the problem. A solder joint could be marginal, a battery cell could be marginal. If the timing is to far advanced it will turn hard when warm. Get some test equipment ready and warm it up, start with the basics and you'll find the problem.

Battery is not marginal. Starter is new and has been load tested. It functions the same as my original starter with the exact same symptoms of not waiting to restart after engine is running/warm. So all of this round-robin running has us back at timing. Would timing not affect engine performance in general and only restarting? Unfortunately, I am not sure how to determine if the the timing is too far advanced.

I will go search.
Thanks.

I had symptoms just like this with my '51 Chevy 3100. I purchased the truck in Alabama, where it is nice and humid and moist, just like Louisiana. My problem was corroded battery cable and ground strap connections. It would start just fine, but as current went through the bad connections the resistance created heat, which generates more resistance, until the darn thing would not start. Let it cool, and no problem, again. Remember, assuming your truck is still 6 volts, the current draw is twice that of a 12 volt system and requires clean connections.

Disconnect and clean (wire brush, etc.) each battery cable connection, including your ground strap from engine to frame. This should take less than an hour, and even if it is not the cause, you won't have to worry about this for awhile. I fixed my problem by doing this and have never had a problem since in 10 years.

Let us know how you do,

Kent

Find someone with a timing light. Then there is a hole in the bellhousing just above the starter. You will need to find the BB on the flywheel, so it may take turning the engine a few times and some cleaner on a rag to wipe the flywheel off. Once you find the BB and clean it then wipe the pointer off. Hook up the timing light and turn the distributor so the BB is right on the pointer. If you don't have access to a timing light, just retard the timing some by turning the distributor and see what happens.

x2 what Kent said, and make sure none of your ground connections are attached to painted metal without an aggressively toothed washer - go over them all and retighten .... then fiddle with the timing, you don't even need a timing light, just loosen the distributor and turn it very slightly either way and retry starting, if that doesn't make it crank faster, turn slightly the other direction and try again - timing can definitely affect cranking speed more hot than cold

Bill

If you want to see if it timing, try turning it over when hot, with the ignition off. If it is a timing issue it will turn much better.

After you have this problem and it turns over slowly, try feeling the temperature at all four connections, both battery connections, starter connection and the ground connection. I am wondering if the ground connection at your frame is bad. Also, how is the cable between your engine and the frame?

Sounds like a plan. Thanks Kent & Bill for the shade tree advisement. It sounds electrical in nature, so I will start there.... I just replaced all of the cables and the grounding straps, but I will go clean em again.

Try checking the voltage at the battery terminals while the slow cranking is happening, then have someone load test the battery to drop it to the same voltage. This test will tell you how much current the starter is drawing on a hot restart attempt. If it's much over 250-300 amps with a good-condition starter, you've got excessive drag inside the engine, maybe pistons expanded tight against the cylinder walls, etc.

Another good check for a too-tight rotating assembly would be to warm the engine up, and quickly remove the spark plugs to relieve the compression. If it cranks slow with the plugs removed, start looking for some kind of internal drag. The suggestion about running the starter with the ignition turned off, or even with the coil wire removed from the distributor cap will tell you whether or not you're dealing with a timing issue- - - -no spark, no kickback.
Jerry

Andy,
sounds like the timing is advanced a little.when its warm try starting without the ignition on, if it spins over fast it is the timing. If that doesn't change anything, its an electrical connection.

It has been my experience that these engines can be a little harder to turn over when they are warm, even by hand. This is sometimes reflected when using the starter. If there is something that is compromised, it can give the erroneous inmpression that the problem only exists when it is warm or hot. In fact, maybe the symptoms are only apparent when it is hot.

Just found your post, hopefully you solved the mystery, but here's my 2 cents. I had exactly the same problem with my 1953, 3600 with stock 6volt 216. cranked well when cold, then got weaker after engine had run a little while. I figured it must be the starter, so after a new starter, same problem. I thought maybe the engine was getting tight when warm/Hot. I even had a local shop tell me I needed to boost the system voltage to 8 volts to overcome the trouble. Know what it was... The ground cable was too small, that's all. These 6 volt systems pull a huge amount of amps when cranking, a too small electrical conduit will prevent the electrons from making their trip and the battery cables will get very warm or hot. I upgraded the ground battery cable to a 1 gauge (huge cable), problem solved. Haven't ever experienced that problem again. My other suggestion is make sure the positive and engine ground to frame cables are large enough, and that all connections are clean and tight. Hope this helps.

HI,

A heavy duty battery cable for 12volts is not the same as a 6volt cable. 6 volt cables at a minimum should be 1/0 cable or better yet 0/0 cable size. Also, a good idea is to run you ground lead from the battery to one of the starter bolts

Do as suggested and crank the engine over and check the battery cable connections at the battery and the the starter.

6volt systems tend to be temperamental about good connections and cable size.

AS stated above amperage draw is twice that of 12 volt systems, this is true of all components. That is why so many people convert to 12 volts.

Good Luck
GMCPic

Well all I know is I used just generic over the counter 12 volt cables. Using a starter that hasn't been rebuilt in 25 years that I know of, and it works flawlessly. I did however make certain I had good connections and I use never seize on the connections, it has good conductivity, resists corrosion, and the bolts come out easy.

I too am a 6 volter that had the same issues as you mentioned. After any drive, I had issues restarting the truck. The issue was resolved with 0/0 battery cables. Once I installed these, no more issues.

Been running great for 6 years since.