The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Paint and Body Shop Wet or dry??

Shot the primers on yesterday and I’m ready to do the sanding on the front fenders. I
haven’t used PPG K36 Prima Acrylic Urethane Primer Surfacer before and was
wondering if it sands better wet or dry?
My painting experience is vast, the only problem is it goes back about 40 years ago when
we only had a few choices instead of the hundreds we have now. And most of the paint
we shot back then was lacquer.
http://www.pbase.com/dennygraham/image/138518625
Base coat on the bare metal was DP90L and then a couple of coats of K36. I’ve brought it
up to this point and taint gonna spoil the last 15minutes of the paint job trying to spraying
the finish in the yard outside the kitchen window. I've got a guy right at the end of the runway
that paints airplanes for a business. He says to get it prepped for the final finish and bring it
down and he’ll shoot the color in his spray booth. I’m shooting PPG Delstar (DAR) if I can
still get them to mix it up for me Monday. Sounds like PPG is phasing out Delstar and it’s
getting hard to find a dealer that stocks the system
Denny Graham
Sandwich, IL

I thought "wet" is to keep the abrasive from loading up and scratching the surface being sanded. I would think that would apply to any paint type. I'm no painter - just my 2 cents. By the way, good lookin' fenders! Can't wait to see color on 'em!

Traditionally that was always true but these new fillers and primers don't seem to load up
the paper like the older stuff did.
I had to use a little filler to smooth out a few waves around the headlights where it had
been hit years ago and the Evercoat sands like wood, not clogging up the paper hardly at
all. I’m gonna let the primers set up for a couple of days and I was just wondering if I’m
gonna have the same experience with them. Of course the ‘P’ sheets say “superior
sanding characteristics and excellent gloss holdout.” What ever gloss holdout is!
And I can't wait to get the color on them either, been waiting over two years with them
stripped and hanging from the ceiling.
Hood comes off as soon as the snow flies then she'll be done body wise and mechanically
from the firewall forward. Box and doors over the winter so that leaves that ratty looking
red cab surrounded by a bright blue border. But that's the way she's gonna be for next
summer. No showboat but looking much better than the day we limped home in ‘05.
DG

I go back 45 years and wet sanding seemed to go faster and reduces the sanding dust, Dry sanding seems to require more sandpaper, and or more stopping and uncloging the sandpaper, and more dust. Kinda hard to wet-sand if there's a potential for water to get where you don't want it. Also with dry-sanding, if you need to re-prime, less time waiting for things to dry out or have water show up when you spray. In the end I don't think one way is better than the other, just depends on your situation. Did you spray a guide coat? Another tip, after sanding, you can wipe the surface down with grease and wax remover and any flaws will show up, big time. Just make sure theres no orange peel! Good luck!

Doesn't appear to be any orange peel and the black DP90 base coat will let me know
when I'm leveling out. Remember also, this taint no show truck and it's just a plain one
layer enamel job, no color sanding or clear coats or buffing to follow. Still I'm sure I'm
gonna have to hit them with a bit more surfacer before they go to paint. I've got the whole
Rest of the week to work outside, temps here are forecast in the low 70's and dry till next
weekend.
My biggest problem with any of the painting is not having a decent location to spray in
and [censored] poor neighbors that sue at the drop of a hat. So I have to make sure the wind is
out of the north before I can ever shoot the primers.
Denny G

You're in the same boat I am Denny about modern materials. I earned my living with a paint gun for years and was darn good at it but I've not shot any of the modern stuff so while I'm long on general knowledge I'm very short on specifics related to new materials like the primers you mention. For what it's worth I always wet sanded before topcoating. I've never found an application where dry sanding provided a superior finish to wet. Wet sanding is/has been so prevalent that if it's not recommended I would think a manufacturer would put that in bold print on the label on the paint can.

It's fun to read all the opposing views from the dozens of auto repair forums on line. Just
Google "Wet vs. Dry primer sanding" and you'll get a hundred hits and a hundred
different opinions. Like, "No sanding primers wet, you'll get rust cuz it's porous." That's
bs we always sanded wet. "Sanding wet makes more mess than dry because of the mud
that's created." That's bs because you don't have to blow dust out of every nook and
cranny for two weeks after dry sanding and the “mud” washes down the drain easily when
your finished for the day. "Lacquer is better than Urethane, it fills and sands better.”
That's bs because the newer primers seal and sand much better than the old
stuff ever did. "Don't sand for a month, because it continues to shrink." That's bs because
body and paint shops would be one ell of a shape if they had to wait a month before
laying down the color. Oh, and I like the one where the guy is sanding the primer with
2000 grit sandpaper. Is rubbing compound even that fine????
It's just amazing how illogical so much of this online discussion is. So like so much in
life, you just have to apply some common sense, if you poses that characteristic, and
make up your own mind.
So, I shot it yesterday, gonna wet sand this afternoon and gonna shoot any thin spots I
might have created in the morning. That’ll give me time to run up and get the ball rolling
before lunch on the DAR while my last coat of primer is setting up.
Tks for the comments guys,


DG

I don't know anything about high tech paints, but I like wet sanding, just because I don't have to wear my respirator!

Alll done..
Got the bucket of water with a squirt of dish wash soap and the garden hose to rinse with,
three strips of 400 paper 3x8 and a couple hours worth of rubbing in the yard along side
the house and I'm ready for paint. No mess, no dust and believe it or not the paper is still
good to go. http://www.pbase.com/dennygraham/image/138531793
I only broke thru to the DP90 in a few spots on the edges the rest is as smooth as a baby’s
butt. A few gentle waves I can see when it's wet but it's not a show truck and I'd rather have
a few waves than a quart of filler in each fender.

DG

Now nobody can claim you don't wave as you drive by.

Or I can wave back with out taking my hands off the wheel??

dg

I can't wait to see the finished paint. I use a canvas drop cloth covered with butchers paper on the floor when I wet sand. I am working in the shop and the dust would be everywhere. When I get finished it is easy to roll it up and dump the paper. I may be finally ready to paint the inside of the cab.

Well pilgrim, you're miles ahead of me. The best I can hope for is to have the front clip, doors, rear fenders and bed finished for next summers driving experience. Shooting for the last piece, the cab, over the winter of 2012.

DG

Wet or Dry, To use body shop procedures as a guide only sightly applies here. They turn out a good product but that is for the greatest part a street car...ur everyday driver.

Over the last 40 plus years I've done both, with dry there's dust to get rid of, with wet there has to be some where for that water to go plus dry out.
For what u what to achieve I would use what works best for u and the place you're doing it.

Denny, everything shrinks, how much, or how much time it takes, along with what will be tolerated is the consideration. There will be those who dispute this but I've seen it happen many times.
Your not wanting a concourse paint job so the shrinkage that occurs is not that important, as it is in many of the things I've painted over the years. Only a few has this ever been a consideration for the end result, and that meant extra time.

Plus here's the other thing, if you would put a perfect concourse paint job on your truck it wouldn't look right. Your truck is stock and the paint job should look really good, but not concourse quality.

Having been a concourse judge at Chevy Vette Fest in Chicago for 11 years I know what paint looks like or should look like.

If it was me, I like wet cause I can squeegee off the water and check for flatness as I sand. I don't have to look back and check for areas that need more.

You say ur going to let this guy shoot it and live with it. That's okay, cause I would wait a year and look at the paint after it had time to harden before I did a color sand.
Shrinkage has taken place plus the paint is harder preventing easy burn threw should you want to improve the looks by doing a little color sand and buff.

Take into consideration I've never had the luxury of painting and then baking it in an oven. An oven would change things.

Dan

Taint gonna be no color sanding on this any more than there was on the truck when it came out of the factory in 1950. In fact when I dropped the fenders off the guys were kidding around with me when I said I was shooting for an original 1950 enamel finish. So that means you want it complete with runs right???
Well at least I hope they were kidding, I told them I really didn't want to do any shaving and buffing.
I think they shot it yesterday afternoon but I told them I'd be fine with letting it set up for a few days before I picked them up.
Denny G

Dan, with today's catalyzed finishes, the only thing an oven does is speed up the flash times so that vehicle can get pushed out and the next one pushed in. Production shop benefit....

Denny, I prefer the wet sanding. Even the "slurry" that tends to make it on the floor after a squeege will tend to stay there and not move as compared to dust from dry sanding.

That's all an oven does anyway. It's like putting a fan on a drop of water. It dries faster but when it's dry it's no drier than one that didn't have a fan blowing on it. I shot a LOT of "baked" enamel and the only difference from "regular" enamel was the additive we had to put in to keep the heat from changing the color of the paint. It was no harder or more durable than air dry paint.

Ya know guys, I propped the stand up in the yard under a tree with the garden hose and
mist head on it and sanded both the fenders, dipping into a plastic bucket with a soap
solution in it. And there taint even a trace of the slurry when we walked past it yesterday
afternoon. Now this winter when I gotta work in the garage will be a different story.

The question that really is unanswered is, how in the world are you supposed to keep the
paper on some of these new fangled foam sanding blocks?????? If you glue to the foam it
wants to pull it away when you peel the paper off, especially the soft foam, that takes a
whole layer with it so you can’t glue to them.
http://www.pbase.com/dennygraham/image/138600205
I'm still using my old hard rubber blocks that I’ve had for a half century or more for short
flat spots, at lease they have the nails or you can glue to the bottom of them..
Denny G
Sandwich, IL

Now, if I can just keep from scratching them up getting them on:
http://www.pbase.com/dennygraham/image/138612914/large
http://www.pbase.com/dennygraham/image/138612891
DG

Is that acrylic enamel? They did a nice job. I just hope I can keep the bugs out of mine.

Yep, DAR neil. And that's exactly why I did all the work up thru the primer and had the guy that paints airplanes at the end of the street shoot the color on it. The only place I can shoot paint is outside the kitchen window in the grass with the wind whipping around the corner of the house. The bugs sand out of the primer ok but I'd sure hate to try sanding and buffing them out of the finish.
The turned out about 95% of what I had in mind. I could have spent a little more time sanding a few more coats of primer but as I've said dozens of times, taint no show truck.
The paint guy has a Delfleet system (polyurethane)in his shop and we talked about shooting the rest of the blue with that. Something I'll have to think about. I really like the texture of the DAR it really looks like the original enamel paint job on the truck. I'm lucky in that the cowl is in pristine condition and still has it's gloss to it. The Delstar looks very close to it. I'm probably gonna end up with a dozen different shades of blue but when I tear everything down to do the cab it would be a relatively easy matter to shoot one coat from the same batch on everything since all the work has been done to it already.
I'm hoping I can get Pete over in the morrow to help me hang the fenders. I took a stab at it last night but it really is a two man job unless you don’t care about your new paint job.
DG

Wet sand primer. (1) better finish,(2)less sand scratch marks,(3) sand paper lasts longer,(4) no dust.

Nice looking fenders Denny. I'm still a year away from any painting and I'm leaning towards acrylic enamel. I do my own painting and it's what I know how to spray. I have no experience with the new stuff and I don't want to get the job to the one yard line and then blow it on the finish paint.

That's exactly the reason I brought them and will be bringing the rest of it up to the finish color and letting the guy with a booth have the last 15 minutes of fame.
I’ve painted a lot over the years and would love to have 100% control over the results but for now, until a spay booth drops out of the sky I’ll have to settle for only doing 95% of the job my self.
The last complete paint job I did was on my biplane. In the end after filling, sealing, sanding, spraying, sanding spraying I’d shot about 14 or15 coats of dope on it. And it was in the middle of winter in a small two-car garage. I was 40 then and I’m dang near twice that now and have to throw in the towel and admit I need a little help from a friend once in a while.
Denny G

....I understand that Denny Your truck still looks GOOD.

A couple of years ago my “big old wife” and I took the ‘50 to a car show out in the
country. It was the “Gears & Ears” car show that was the one that everybody tries to make
it to. It takes place right before the county fairs begin out here in farm country. For the
entrance fee you get a door prize, (ours was a big can of PB Blaster, $5.50) a nice “Gears
& Ears” Tee-shirt, all the canned soda you can drink for the day, and all the corn dripping
with butter you can eat.
One of the guys that had just joined the Stovebolt and had read some the short stories that
I often post, contacted me and wanted to drive out from the city to meet us and look over
the truck. Ya see, he had just become the recipient of a basket case ‘52 to keep him busy
during his retirement. Enter Pete52. Since then Pete and I have become good friends even
though he lives half way cross the state we still try to get together for a burger and a beer
once in a while.
Last week after I got the front fenders back from the painter Pete volunteered to drive out
and give me a hand hanging them. Since I’d already tried to fit one up my self I knew that
this was going to be a two man job if I wanted to keep any paint on the edges. So Pete
drove out Friday morning and spent the day with me doing battle with the front end of
Big Red. And man was I glad he came out to help. By the end of the day we had the two
front fenders and the grill hung in place, all the paint was still intact and not a skinned
knuckle to be had. If you‘ve ever been thru that exercise then you know what a grand
accomplishment that can be.
And here it is after the last screw was tightened down last night. She wouldn’t look to bad
if it weren’t for that raunchy looking pealing red hood and cab. She still taint no prize
winner but good enough for a trip into town to pick up seed corn.
I know a lot of people have had problems installing the grills in their AD and I was no
exception. After we had hung the fenders we had to shoe-horn the assembled grill into the
opening. Loosening the bolts that we had already put in the front of the fenders and lower
baffle allowed us to spread the bottom of the opening enough to get the grill in place. The
biggest problem seemed to be the vertical end flanges on the inner skirt. We would get
the assemble in between the fender flanges and it would push back the inner skirt, we
would push the inner skirt back in place and it would pop out of the fender flanges. In the
end we use a soft jawed bar clamp to pull the three flanges in to alignment at the top.
Once we got a bolt in the top we moved to the bottom but the jaws were to shallow to
pull the bottom together, with the help of Pete’s big mitts a 2x4 we were able to coax the
three layers to line up for bolting.
After Pete took off and we’d had our Friday night pizza I was going to finish bolting and
adjusting it all so I could go joy riding Saturday. Well that didn’t happen, and it’s
Monday morning now.
The Parking Lights! Before you attach the top bar and mount the grill mount the parking
lights and check to see if the bezel is gonna clear. They’re a real tight fit if you do it after
it’s assembled, They can be laid down sideways and they will go in between the bars but
it’s a tight fit. Then they can be tilted into the holes from the backside. These housings
can’t be tilt in from the front with the upper bar in place. Also if installing the lights with
the upper bar in place you may have a problem with the screw tab hanging up on the end
flange preventing you from tilting them forward. Before you scratch up your fresh paint
job putting in and taking out, the housings, check to make sure you have the cut tab
facing outboard. This is the only distinction between a left and right housing.
http://www.pbase.com/dennygraham/image/138654694/large
This was an original stock 1950 grill with the original parking light housings and the
original glass and bezels. This is one of the straightest grills that I’ve seen since I’ve been
messing with the AD trucks and this is my sixth year at it. There was no rust on this grill
and it was not smashed in like so many that you see. The only straightening required was
to the little tabs where the J-nuts and clutch head screws hold the ends of the bars
together. The bezels would not clear at the top outer corner and the end frame flange kept
it from falling in place. So my point is, that this is probably a pretty common problem
area on these grills, don‘t leave it till last.
http://www.pbase.com/dennygraham/image/138660436
http://www.pbase.com/dennygraham/image/138660460
I spent more time getting the parking lights in than we did getting the grill to fit in it‘s
opening.
Friday night turned out to be a bad night to tackle this anyway because we worked on it
all day, I was in the third day of a bad cold, I’d only had three hours of sleep the night
before and I was still all doped up on Tylenol Cold medicine. I finally threw in the towel
at midnight and vowed to I attacked it again in the morning. Things went a little better on
Saturday and I got the bumper and pan on, headlights installed, wiring hooked up and
checked out and found the proper wire loom clips. In the evening I went to put the two
bolts into the wheel opening brace and they were WAY off. Push pry as much as I could
and finally made the decision that they had to come out and be straightened to fit. Fast
forward to Sunday night and both braces back in, fender welts in and the last screw was
drawn up. And here’s what we ended up with.
http://www.pbase.com/dennygraham/image/138713127
\http://www.pbase.com/dennygraham/image/138713139
Even got a pretty good seam width on the fender that I straightened.
http://www.pbase.com/dennygraham/image/138722209
Next step, strippin’ the hood, think I‘ll finish out the month on that project.

Denny Graham
Sandwich, IL

Looks Great Denny! You make me want to take my 50 back apart and reassemble it RIGHT!
Your Hood to fender body gaps are on the money.

Thanks for detailing the experience.

Can’t wait to see some daylight pics of the assembly, and engine compartment.

What did you use for the fender to cab welt?
Did you leave a reveal or bead?

Denny,El says it's great looking truck,showed her the pic's!!!!!



Pete,El

That raunchy red is slooooowly fading to blue but it might just take another year to get it
there.
http://www.pbase.com/dennygraham/image/138728707
I just can’t imagine how much time or money the guys with the show trucks have
invested. Since I’m retired I have a lot more time to play but to match some of the show
trucks that I’ve seen I just wouldn’t have enough time in the day.

Here’s a snap of the fender welting. It’s the standard 1 ½” that all the vendors are selling
and it tucks in very nicely without even having to notch the web.
http://www.pbase.com/dennygraham/image/138728769
Denny G

IF you would put another coat of primer and block sand it a couple of times it would take out the waves you are talking about. If you see the waves in the primer it will show up worst in the paint.

Good job Denny. And Pete is the man to help. When putting my front end on the panel Pete gave me afew pointers over the phone.....I could have told you about the parking lights, in face I think I ask a question here about the same problems you discussed. IF I ever do another I'll know better!!

Your truck is looking really nice Denny.

Well thanks Alvin, I needed that, all I got from my "big old wife" was, "WHEN YOU GONNA
GET THAT RATTY LOOKING HOOD PAINTED", and "I like the color blue, it goes with my
new outfit." They just don't appreciate nuttin' we do on this old iron.

Yes I do remember your discussion on the grill, but I thought your grill and lights were repops.
If this had been all reproduction or some reproduction I would have expected it,
but it was all the original stuff which I didn't expect.

I was eyeballing the hood hinges up this afternoon, think I might just pull that off
and get started on it this weekend. Get 'er done before the snow flies.
Denny G

...I used a repop grille but the problems seemed to be the same after reading our comments and about the verticals to.

The hood almost whipped me and from discussions a lot of others as well. After days or whinning and crying I took one complete day, just me and big orange, and whipped my problem. I think Mike and Pete both gave me some pointers on it but in the end it was just me and it! I think I have it down pat now. If you have problems give me a call. I need a road trip. LOL

.....I like Blue myself. Nice cool color.

Well like I said, she taint show quality but this exercise has to be worth at least a ‘B’.
I mean, how many 60 year old’s do you know with out a few wrinkles?????
http://www.pbase.com/dennygraham/image/139176037/large

Now all I gotta do is figure out how I’m gonna get that hood back on. Me buddy
Pete offered to come over next week but being the impatient type I probably
won’t be able to wait that long.
So now that makes it a totally restored 1950 from the fire wall forward, top to bottom this time.

DG

Looks great!!!

How did you treat the underside?
Overspray as discussed earlier?

Thanks

She sure looks funny from the cowl back, but I guess I’ll have to live with the laughs if I
want
to keep on driving it while I get the frosting on the old gal.
http://www.pbase.com/dennygraham/image/139199169/large
http://www.pbase.com/dennygraham/image/139199170/large
http://www.pbase.com/dennygraham/image/139199175/large

The paint on the firewall is the original mariner blue. It’s a pretty close shade to the PPG
offset. Still gotta drop the hood line a tad on the right side but I’m gonna wait till the cab
comes off because that 60 year old dum-dum behind the hinge is as stiff as a new broom.
Also I don’t feel like pulling the glove box right now to get at the bolts
I’m priming all of the sheet metal with PPG DP90 which looks very much like the
original under coat that all the GM sheet metal was treated with. And yes Gus, I
did let the over spray onto the underside like the panels were painted at the factory.

DG