The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Engine Shop Overdrive solenoid/relay chattering?

Well, I'm finally getting around to it - after local mechanics offered no suggestions for the overdrive chattering problem, I went back to the shop manual and the Borg Warner book. In the shop manual it says the solenoid (and relay) can cause "chattering" and the solenoid needs to be serviced or replaced. When I remove the solenoid (1/4 turn) is it clockwise or counter? Also, what happens when I pull it out, besides it comes out? Anything to watch for, be careful about? The book says it may be a bad hold-in coil - does that mean replace the whole unit? It's $265 at Fifth Avenue. Didn't see any other offerings at usual vendors - no swap meets near here anytime soon. Oh, it's the 56 Cameo, 3 on the tree w/od.
Thanks,

Dale

It doesn't matter which way you turn it to get it out. It is just a simple tongue and groove type deal. Nothing else to watch for.

When you get it out pull the cover off and file the contacts. Clean it with carb spray. Put it back together and try it.

Tips: The terminal screws must be removed to remove the cover. There is a drain hole in the cover. The solenoid can be installed with it up or down. Make sure you install it down.

This is good advice only I think it only comes out one way and that part is easy, go or no go. You might try 400 grit sandpaper to 'file' the contacts, good suggestions Cletis. I run mine without the relay or governor hooked up, daily driver only vehicle, transmission this way for 10 years now.

Please let us know how it turns out for we can all learn from each others' experience.

Thanks for the guidance. The shop manual is short on pictures and help on the solenoid, except as I indicated. I will definitely work on it as you outlined Cletis. I really appreciate the help and will let you know how and if it works when I get it done with it. Looks like it's an easy enough bench test once it's worked over. I'll also take a few pix as I go along. I am anxious to see what it looks like inside. Thanks Cosmo for your advice also. They are good tips.
Dale

Something else you may want to do is make sure that the trans has a good solid ground. You may consider adding a cable going directly to the frame to ground the case.

Good call Bill - the bench test procedure the manual outlines indicated the importance of the ground as well. I will be careful, and thanks for the caution. As you can tell I'm a real greenhorn, but I am willin' and, with the help I get here -- I just may get this thing fixed.

Dale

There is a good possibility that the oil seal is leaking and allowing trans oil to get into the solenoid. This will cause chattering and eventually cause it to stop working.
You can dissassemble the solenoid and wash it out with cleaning solvent. Let it hang upside down for a couple of hours to dry it out. As mentioned previously clean up the contacts. If the contacts are really worn they can be built up with silver solder.
The oil seal P/N is 3060CR. Napa or a regular parts store should be able to get it for you.
Fred

Thanks for the added info Fred - I'm just starting on this now - had to be gone a few days, but will get back with update when I get 'er done. Thanks again - especially the seal information --

Dale

Here is the solenoid when I first removed it. As you can see there is no seal at all. There was no sign of a seal on the od opening either. I took lots more pictures after cleanup and re-assembly. Just waiting for the seal(s) to get here now and I'll include the rest of the pictures, hopefully I can do it in a package vs. one at at a time.. Ordered from Fifth Avenue. Should be here quickly I hope.

Dale

Anybody know how/where to fit the seal? There was a seal in the solenoid after I got it all cleaned up. Had to pry it out. I thought the metal casing around it should come out too so I dug at it, but it is either press fitted and never to come out, or original and so bonded it will never come loose. The instructions that come with the seal say the seal is to be inserted in the transmission with opening facing the transmission, and slide the shaft through while replacing the solenoid. There is no way that I can see the seal being "inserted" into the transmission solenoid opening. The seat, and where the original seal was found, is located in the solenoid. Seems it should go there, but it sure does not want to fit even after I dremeled out most of the old casing. Not sure I'm doing this at all right (but it looks pretty). Any thoughts? Fifth Avenue is closed on vacation till the sixth, so nobody to talk with there.

Dale

Hy cameo1956, a lot of the older buses I worked on used that solenoid, there was a cork gasket the same shape as the solenoid flange, but no seal, only the one around the shaft that it sounds like you have already removed. Every solenoid has two windings, a pull in winding (high amp draw), and a hold in winding (low amp draw). Once the pull in winding pulls the shaft into place a connection to the hold in winding is made and the connection to the pull in winding is opened. If the hold in winding is open or shorted, you will get the symptom you describe, a chattering sound from the solenoid, hope that helps.

Hi 3B. Your explanation of the inner electrical workings describes exactly what was going on with this solenoid, only now I understand why. I think I have that part cleaned up. The problem I have right now though is with the seal, a rubber, metal jacketed donut looking affair that needs to be seated before replacing the solenoid back onto the tranny. The instructions say to first insert, then tap it in gently using a 7/16 deep socket (over the shaft), be careful not to damage the seal. Without hammering this thing in it just does not want to go and I was wondering if anybody had experienced replacing this seal and maybe had better luck than I'm having. Thanks again for your post - it does help visualize the initial problem. Dale

Well, finally got it all back together and it runs out just fine - chattering gone. At least for now. Here are some pictures of the process. 3B I never did find a cork flange seal like you mentioned from any of the vendors I know anywhere (and there wasn't one on there when I removed the solenoid), but I do see it needs one - a bit of leakage after the test run. I'll just get some cork sheets and make one for now. I will add some pictures of installing the shaft seal later if anybody would like to see it. Thanks again for all your help everybody. I'm goin' wheelin' --in overdrive.
Dale

Great info thanks for taking time to post the pics. I have a 55 passenger car and spare 3 speed with overdrive, know nothing of it's condition. Thought about replacing the std 3 speed with this unit not sure of it's history or if it's fixable???

Thanks
Jim

I have replaced the trans seal numerous times as I have rebuilt dozens of these units. It is very important for the health of the solenoid. It is like any oil seal - remove the old one and drive it in like any oil seal - only smaller. I do not remove the seal from the solenoid itself as I have not found a source for a replacement. The main problem is the one in the trans.
Fred

Thanks again Fred. I still have not found a replacement gasket - the one that goes on the solenoid flange to close the gap between the metal overdrive mounting location on the transmission and the solenoid flange. I believe that's the one you said you had replaced on the school buses. The solenoid shaft seal (that seal is available from Fifth Avenue and several other vendors I found) changeout was only tough because of the resistant old seal that just would not come out. I never expected that. Having to grind that metal cover out was tough and time consuming, and never, all the time I was doing it was I sure I was doing the right thing. In fact I was sure at times I was ruining the solenoid, but after I got enough of it out to position the new seal -- it still works. Still not sure I did it right, or if there is a right, but it's done now. BTW when I was sure I had ruined the solenoid with my digging and grinding, I found and purchased on ebay a replacement original. It's not here yet, and not sure what I'll do with it when it gets here next week, but it's a spare now. You learn a lot doing this stuff don't you, and hands-on is the only way, (along with the good guidance I get from this website).
Dale

Dale,
I guess I missed a couple of things reading your post. Did you replace the seal in the trans? Also your pictures only show the cover being removed. In order to properly clean up the solenoid the internal components need to be dissassembled and cleaned up.
You can use some light grease when you reassemble the plunger. It is indexed so you can't put it together wrong.
It appears to me that seal in the solenoid is held in by the
surrounding boss being peened over. As I mentioned I have never found it necessary to replace this seal as the seal in the transmission solves the problem. I have never found any other gaskets between the solenoid and the trans in all the ones I have rebuilt. Of course someone may have tried to stop a leak using one but I doubt it worked.
Fred

Fred,
The seal I replaced is the small seal that surrounds the solenoid shaft - the one you indicated you never found it necessary to replace. I'm not sure where the "seal in the transmission", as you are indicating, refers to. I did only remove the solenoid cover, did not disassemble further (but it sounds like I could/should have), other than removing the seal on the other end, the shaft seal. Was not aware you should disassemble further. The "peened over boss" you refer to is probably part of what I ground away to get the new "shaft" seal to fit in. Again, I am not sure where the "seal in the transmission" is located. Did I do this all wrong? If I did I probably messed the solenoid up by grinding on it. Well, at least I have another solenoid coming in a few day, but don't want to mess that one up too. It's coming with a new seal. Somehow I need to get this right.

Dale

Using this as a guide Fred can you tell me where the "seal in the transmission" goes. The part I replaced, on the flange, around the solenoid shaft is shown here as 4.460.

Dale

This is what we are talking about...

If you've dug into the base of the solenoid rod on the left I believe you've gone where few men have gone before. What I believe Fred is talking about seal-wise is the shaft seal embedded in the recepticle for the solenoid on the right.

Dale, your link above isn't working (for me at least).

Cosmo,
1) I have gone where few men have gone before. (no wonder the seal was so hard to remove and fit in there)
2) Is that the removable shaft seal? I had no clue that was a seal. You're talking about the center hole where the shaft goes back in (between the mounting holes), right? Is that the shaft seal?
If it is - I can do that - I sure made a mess of the other one though.
Sorry about the link - don't know what's wrong, and not sure how to fix it - it still works for me. It's just the exploded view of the overdrive parts. Looks like I sure messed up on this one - but, I'm learning - Thanks Cosmo

Dale

Dale,
Cosmo has it right, that's the transmission seal. P/N 3060CR
Fred

Fred,
I do see the seal inside there now. Sure is in tight - best way to remove without damaging anything? Just pry the metal casing out? I have the new seal.
Dale

Well, just to close this out - I did get the transmission seal out (finally) - everything looked clean and ready to install so I did. Now all that's left is finish cleaning the rest of the solenoid I didn't know to do earlier and put it all back together again. I already know the chattering is gone. Thanks everybody

Dale