The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Engine Shop Dodge 2500 rotor for a 3600

Hi All,
As some of your will remember, I am working on putting disk brakes on the front of my 51, 3600.
A 1999 Dodge 2500 2wd has a hub and rotor that might work out. The spindle on the dodge is larger in diameter than the 3600 which means that sleeves can be turned to put on the 3600 spindle that will allow the use of the dodge hub and all, IF the hubs are about the same in depth. Does anyone know the distance through the hub from the outside of one bearing to the other on this Dodge hub? I could find the bearing specs online but I couldn't find this measurement. Anyone do brake work that might have one they can measure? There are no U pick it yards near me and the ones there are will not let you go pull the hub without buying it. I will share what I work out with anyone who wants to know!
Rick

Can't help you, but I am following your posts closely!

John

I'll look tonight to see if there are any 1999 3/4 tons in the yard.

Well, found a 4x4. I'll look again tomorrow night. There is one more candidate but I'll have to see if it is the correct year.

Thanks MNSmith!
Rick

I'm very interested in this dialog also. My one thought regarding the '99 Dodge is that ideally we'd figure out how to do this using a part that was available across a number of years, and not just one year.

For all I know the '99 Dodge rotor is still used, and was used for 10 years before, but it would be nice to know for sure...

Any Dodge guys here?

I have my own web server, and would be happy to host any photos related to this project. If you have pictures and need a place to post them, email them to me and I'll make them available to everyone.

You might consider a '99 or earlier GM 3/4 ton 2wd rotor. Similar to the Dodge rotor. There's a possibility that the bearing sizes are the same. Just a suggestion.

Hi Bill,
The wheel bearings for a 98 2500 are too small and the 1951,3600 spindles would need to be turned to make them work. The 98, 3500 has bearings that are too big and will require making sleeves for the 51, 3600 spindles, just like the Dodge set up. I will look into it further tomorrow, as far as price for the Dodge parts vs the Chevy parts. I also need to find the hub depth for the Chevy hub as well as the Dodge hub to see if the bearings fall in the right places on the spindle. Whatever way it goes, I would think the caliper would be the same make as the hub that is be used. Making the bracket should be a matter of measuring and cutting it out of 1/4 plate. I think we are getting closer! Any advice or info on the depth of the hubs would be appreciated.
Rick

For those of you who are interested, this is a page from the site I am getting this info from
http://www.partsamerica.com/Product...er=56263RGS&parttype=221&ptset=A
Rick

Can't you simply change the bearings to come up with the correct inner (spindle) and outer (hub) dimensions? What about using the original hub, and just adding discs... there has got to be a roller bearing conversion for that. Timken, Eaton, Spicer...

bigbadswingdaddy,
When you find them, let me know!!!!
Rick in Va

Hi,
For those of you following this the bearings in my truck are New Departure. They are now Hyatt/New Departure or HND bearing. The numbers are 909626 and 909625. These are old numbers that do not conform to the more modern numbering system. HND has no data on these bearings, too old. I have been unable to cross these bearings by number. The inside bearing has an outer diameter of 3.148 and an inside diameter of 1.406 there are some strange measurements but I checked them with two dial calipers. It is difficult to get a total depth because the inner race does not fit inside the outer race, I would guess it to be about 1.215 deep. The outside bearing has an OD of 2.249 an an ID of .843
a picture of these bearings can be found at
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e187/Sawmill/107-0784_IMG.jpg

Here is a picute of the spindle, you can see where the bearings fall on the spindle.
Rick
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e187/Sawmill/107-0778_IMG-1.jpg

Rick, thanks for keeping this subject alive. I'm short on fabrication skills but I may have dug up something useful.

First, I have been staring at the 1929-1957 Master parts list (probably too long). Here is the illustration of the steering knuckle, etc.

http://chevy.tocmp.com/1929_57chevyparts/57cmpc0521.htm

If you go to 6.311 (Bearing Assembly, Front Wheel Inner) and look for 3/4 ton you find it is comprised of 3 parts, one of which is 909626 for 1935-52. (Rick, there are your 1.406 and .843 measurements, 1.40 and .84)

http://chevy.tocmp.com/1929_57chevyparts/57cmpc0533.htm

The part number of the assembly for 1935-52 is 909026. For our 1953-57 friends the part number is 909046.

I believe the same is true of the outer bearing at 6.313. For 3/4 ton it is comprised of 3 parts, one of which is 909625 for 1935-52. The assembly part number is 909025.
For 1953-57 the part number is 909045.

OK all of that to get to this. From reading previous posts about front wheel bearings, someone referred to this company in Japan that has measurements of front bearings.

http://www.mbs-m.co.jp/flame.htm

If you click on front wheel ball bearings, I believe you will find the bore, OD and width in mm for the four bearing assemblies mentioned above.

1935-52 Inner bearing 909026, outer 909025.

1953-57 Inner bearing 909046, outer 909045.

Finally, I found a Dodge web site that offered disc brake conversion kits for WWII and later trucks. The man said he was retiring in 12/05 but was leaving his site up for a year. He was using some GM rotors and fabricating the hub assemblies and some adapters I believe. He has some nice pictures and parts lists. I offer it as an example of someone who figured it out for a different line of trucks but there should be some tips available for us. (We don't have to reinvent the wheel?)

http://uglytruckling.com/#

Thanks again Rick for keeping the topic alive. I have a 52 GMC 3/4 ton, so I am interested in where this topic is going.

Randy, that ugly-duckling web site was interesting. Unfortunately, he had only done the D100 and not the D200.

Long story here, but it does get to the point.

Years ago I put '62 Imperial brakes on a '49 Dodge 1/2 ton. The reason I picked those, was that they were large, had 5X5" wheel pattern that fit the 15 x 7(?) artillery style wheels that were under the large Imp hubcaps. The real reason is that I parked the '62 Imp, next to the Dodge and transferred the radiator, 413, firewall, AC, PS, PB, all the electrical, Steering/column, dash, push-button torqueflight, P/ant, P/seat and rear axle. The Imp rear had the E-brake and the Dodge 1/2 had a trans mounted E-brake. Or vise-versa. It was a long time ago.

I used a Hollander Interchange Manual to look up the Imp wheel bearings. The bearings fit a lot of vehicles, but the best match was for a '58 3/4 Dodge truck, which is also a solid axle. I don't remember the reason for certain, but as I had to rebuild the kingpins anyway, I used the 3/4 spindles and the 1/2 axle. The 3/4 kingpin was larger and so the hole had to be bored. I think the spring spacing may have been different between the two. The cost of fitting the larger pins was only a little higher than having the bushings done alone.

My thinking is that you should be looking for a new spindle and modify the pin and/or bushing. Why not find a late model solid axle with discs that doesn't have rear duals.
I looked in Napa's online catalog and looked for parts for a '90 Chevy step van, P30 1 ton. I just picked it at random.
I found a part number for a kingpin repair kit and also this small hub, 8 lug Hub & rotor for this application.

I would be very surprised if the step van had the same spring spacing or even a close tread width.

A lot easier to find would be FNord Twin-I-Beam spindles with disc set up. You never know until you check. You could pick up a single spindle from your U-Pick for next to nothing and check to see if it's do-able. I can't remember what their I beam spindle looks likeor even if it's a bushing in the spindle setup. It's just something else to look at.

Kingpin angle for any of the above could be off, but easily corrected, if going to a larger pin.
I'm not real crazy about the bearing sleeve idea.

This is super Randy!!! You have done a ton of work and I thank you! I did not find a listing for the 909026 at the mbs site but I guess you got it by converting the english units to meteric and found it that way? Had you wanted to keep the 8 lug pattern? I noticed at the Dodge site he converted to 5 lug. If you want to keep the 8 lug pattern, the job should be easier. I believe something like this rotor
http://www.partsamerica.com/Product...er=56242RGS&parttype=221&ptset=A
could be mounted to the chevy hub. Either in front of the stud flange or behind depending on how the rotor lines up with the caliper plate. Long studs could be used or the rotor could be bolted to the hub flange using another set of holes. I am a "shop" teacher and would not mind prototyping a couple of sets of whatever is the final design. The cost of one rotor isn't that much and I will see if I can pick one up this week. Lets keep up this exchange and get something put together.
Rick

I think you've hit the right idea, but how about cross referrencing the bearings, rather than the whole spindle? Surely there must be some carry over on bearings on 3/4 tons to later models. Using P-30 parts sounds good, but I've personally never seen one that didn't have dual wheels, and most of the later ones had IFS, too.
I do think that this is the right track to follow, though, just possibly not the right parts path.
That rotor that you have pictured is designed to go behind the hub, note the large squarish hole in the center. That's to allow it to fit over the bolt flange for a sealed hub assembly. It's held on with the studs from the backside.

Longbox55
If you look at Randy Lutons post, I think you will find he has found a cross reference for the bearings. That is the way to go. Changing the whole spindle doesn't seem like the easiest or best way to go. If in fact there are tapered roller bearings that cross, mounting a rotor on the chevy hub seems the best idea so far.
Rick

Ooops, I think i skipped over that one!! My bad.

Hi Longbox55
I just checked out Randys bearing site and number and the number is for ball bearings, I was hoping it was for tapered roller. I am Bad Bad!! At any rate, I think your idea of using the chevy hub is the best way, with or without tapered roller.
Rick

If I'm following this correctly, we are at the point of updating the old rollers to tapered bearings. The only problem I see with that, is that there is no sruface for a seal. That is the reason for the sleeve on the 1/2 ton conversion. It creates a seal surface. I don't think there are any tapered bearing that have that extra lip for seals, like in you bearing picture. Crossing bearings is easy, all you need is a good specification book ( I use Federal Mogul / BCA ) and the original inner and outer surface measurements. Same when it comes to the grease seals.

Do we still need me to measure the 1999 Dodge 2500 stuff?? Next chance for me is Tuesday night.

Also, we just got in some P30 bread vans with the straight axle. They are duelly with 19.5 rims. Can't remember if they are 8 lug or 10. It would be easy for me to crawl under and measure spring, center to center and hub, outside to outside. Knowing GM, I bet it wouldn't be too much trouble to mate a 3/4 8 lug rotor to the P30 spindle. Let me know what you want me to measure before these vehicles go to auction!!

Appreciate everyone's ideas.

Not sure if this is what you are looking for but the MBS Bearing site also has a page for tapered roller bearings.
Click on "Ball and Roller Bearings" and then click on "Front and Rear Wheel Tapered Roller Bearings".

http://www.mbs-m.co.jp/flame.htm

I believe the outer bearings for both the 1935-52 (909025) and then 1953-57 (909045) are listed.

The part number for 909025 (1935-1952) is
3110-00-157-1899 according to that site.

The part number for 909045 (1953-57) is
3110-00-289-6825.

No listing seen for the inner bearings.

Hi All,
As I see it, only one of the tapered roller bearings has been found. I tried at a local bearing house, they could not help. The numbers were of no help to them and they could not match up the dimensions. If anyone is willing to do more research, please advise us. If this idea is layed to rest, the remaining options are (1)To mount a rotor on the 3600 chevy hub and use it, ball bearings and all. (2) Or to look for a spindle that might fit our axle, or (3) to use a Dodge hub, bearings, and rotor. The 3600 spindle would need to have two sleeves turned and press on. One for the outside bearing and one for the inside. The sleeve for the indside would more than likely need to have a shoulder on it for the seal to ride on. How is this for putting the pieces together? Which approach would you guys like to go with?
Rick

On #1 and #3, you still have to make or adapt a bracket to hold the caliper and you still have to clean up and probably rebuild the kingpin.

Hi Richard,
For option #2 someone has to go to a u pick it and look for spindles. I do not have a u pick it near me. The only way I can get a spindle is if I commit to buying it, then they will pull it. Is this something you can check out?
Rick

Brembo Brakes
They are showing the P30 with dual rear wheels with both the I-Beam and the independent front. They are also showing the P30 with single rear wheels and not identifying, I-Beam or independent front. I don't think the single wheel rotor will fit the dual spindle.
I am afraid that unless proof of a I-beam, single rear is found, this may unfortunately be a dead end.
One source said the P30 dual is 10,000GVW and the single wheel 7,000GVW.

May not necessarily be a dead end. It all depends on the construction. Look at 2000-01 Dodge and Ford F450-550 front brakes. A hat (rotor) with a wheel hub extension attached to get the "duelly" wheel further out.

Let's look at a 1989 P30. From inside backing plate to inside backing plate is 65". Spring center to spring center is 35". From center of kingpin tube to top of spring pad is approx. 5". Now, like I mentioned the possibility earlier, the wheel mount is 10 lug with a 8R19.5 wheel / tire attached. However, here is where we get to that construction thing. Looking in the wheel, you'll see that there is a wheel extension. Held on by 8 bolts or studs. From the backside of the backing plate to the face of that 8 bolt area is approx. 4" From the 8 bolt area to where the wheel mounts is another approx. 5". This is to get that duelly wheel out there. This is a duelly / "I" beam front end.

Yep, couldn't get to that 3/4 ton Dodge. But I was able to crawl under the P30 and measure it a little.

Well, anybody figure out if that P30 axle will match up??

A 1998 C2500 Hub/Rotor has an outer bearing that will fit right on the old truck spindle. The spindle needs to be turned about 15 thou where the inner bearing sets. The only thing I don't know is if the bearing spacing will work out on the old truck spindle. I am going to check that out before I go looking for axles or spindles. If someone else wants to look at P30 axles great, but that is not the path I am looking into now.
Rick

Took a couple of quick measurements on my 52 GMC 3/4 ton.
Inside backing plate to other backing plate is 51".
Center of tire tread to other tread center is about 58"
Spring center to spring center at the axle is about 26 3/4".
Don't have my wheel off at this time but could take more measurements later tonight if needed.

Misc info from my maintenance manual.

King pin length 5 5/8"
King pin diameter 0.9210" - 0.9214"
King pin hole ID 0.9217 - 0.9220"

Been watching this post with interest. Please forgive my thick headedness but I hate being behind the curve. I get confused when you speak of front brakes and refer to a dually rear end. Are y'all talking about front brakes or rears? Or is there some relationship between dually rears and the front end on those vehicles?

my guess is that the dually rims are different. Because the dually has back tires mounted together... 1 is flipped in relation to the other. All 6 wheels are interchangeable, so the front rims are flipped in relation to the outer rear wheels. This means that a dually wheel has more backspacing than a standard wheel...in fact it prolly has more backspacing than rim width.

This probably came up because dually equiped vehicles often have an extension or adapter on the front wheel hub to push the front tires outward, to make up for all that backspacing. Hope that helps.

A truck with dual rear wheels has to have the front wheel spaced out, in order to use the same style wheel all around [img]http://partimages.genpt.com/partimages/318525.jpg[/img] .
This picture is from the NAPA web page for the P30 with duals I was looking at.

Below is their picture for the P30 with single rear wheels. They don't use the same bearing ID, so putting this hub on a P30 dual spindle from a I beam won't seem to work.


[img]http://partimages.genpt.com/partimages/318516.jpg[/img]
They show eight lug on both of these????

Hey Rick in VA,

I tried to email you but your address in your profile is not working. Click on my screen name and please contact me.


Everyone:

I'm thinking of exploring path #1 and attaching a rotor to my stock hub and using a tapered roller bearing like this for the inner bearing.

http://www.ntnamerica.com/products/datasheet.asp?MANUFACTURER=NTN&BEARINGCATEGORY=TRMET&BORE=1%2E378&OD=3%2E1496&CL_PARTNO=4T%2D32307&

The dimensions look about right (the spindle may need a slight haircut where the bearing sits) but there is obviously no lip for the grease seal like the stock ball bearing has. I probably need to get a look at the sleeve that is used in the 1/2 ton conversion. Suggestions for other possible solutions?
MN Smith alluded to this problem in one of his posts above.

Looking to further my brake education. Thanks.

Randy

If I remember correctly when I separated my drums from the hubs in order to have them turned, the studs held the drum on. As such, one would want to mount a rotor behind the hub in the same way, utilizing the eight lugs fitted tightly into the holes in the rotor. One would want a good, flat mating surface rotor to hub right? Then, having the wheel spaced so far away could actually create some space for the caliper would it not?

Hi Orchidskip,
Yes, this plan has been mentioned before and I believe it is a good one. The problem is that most people want to convert to tapered roller bearings in conjuction with the disk brake conversion. As of yet, no one has found bearings that are a direct fit that meet all the requirments. Under exploration at this time seem to be two approaches. One is to find an axle that will replace the 3/4 ton unit that has the brakes that are wanted, or at least to find a spindle that will mount the brakes and rotor. The other approach is to try to use a Chevy C2500 hub and rotor on the existing spindle. The roller bearing could be made to fit by turning the 3/4 truck spindle slightly. The only thing that is unkown at this time is if the depth of the C2500 hub provides the correct placement of the bearings on the the 3/4 ton spindle. I think that is where we are now! With all these minds working on the problem, exploring different approaches, I am sure the job will get done, it is just interesting to see in unfold.
Rick

any updates?

Interesting, sounds like alot of machining and leg work. I've been trying to come up with something similar on the 54. The best I've came up with is a rotor off of a 99 and up 4x4. It will slip right over top of the 54 hub. Of course then there is finding the right caliper combo and fabricating brackets. Now about the tapered bearings. I'm just as lost as the next guy on that one.

I guess the hubs on my 49 nare different from later ones. The drums are held onto the hub face by 2 flat-head screws (until the wheels are on, of course) And the seal fits inside the hub, inboard of the bearing and it rides against a thin, dish-shaped piece of sheet-metal that is a snug fit on the spindle, inboard of the inner bearing.
I see no reason why this hub couldn't carry a rotor instead of the drum. And if roller bearings can be made to fit the hub and spindle, the seal should still work.

Just a suggestion, take a look at the front brakes on the '00 and up 2500 HD and 3500 GM trucks (GMT 900 body). You may be able to adapt the brackets and calipers from one of those to work. The rear brakes might also be worth checking into if you want disks on the rear.