The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Engine Shop 2x1 intake comparison

what are the pros/cons between the clifford 2 x 1 intake offered by jim carters and the offys everyone else is selling? intake is going to be use with the original but split exhaust manifold. (other than price)

yes i am kind of old and stupid - howards are for gmc's. are there other 2/1 intakes for 235 chevys? sorry about the original question

I dont know about performance but the Offy is a tad bit cooler than the Clifford but still not cool enough for me:)

I've been shopping intakes for about a year and have settled on a vintage edelbrock. I have pictures of others that were sent to me from another member here.(6cylindersfromtexas) I will try to email those to you. IMO, the vintage ones are the coolest as far as looks go. The ones I've seen on Ebay lately are Edmunds, Edelbrocks, and Offys(the old ones look different than the new ones). The price range is 200 to 350. Patricks has been talking about re-making the fenton intake. Do a search on intakes on this forum and you will find more info. There are SO many more available than I thought a year ago when I first asked this same question. Happy shopping!

I sure hope he DOES NOT make them!

What was so wrong with the Fenton intake?

djed50, there is a guy who specializes in manifolds that makes the swap meets around our neck of the woods. He has several brands of vintage ones as well as some newer ones for 235s. If you can wait until March I'm sure he'll be in Decatur again. He had good prices on the Chevy ones but I couldn't talk him down on a GMC one. (About $100 more than Chevy ones)

There is nothing like the McGurk, it`s the holy grail of intakes.

Edelbrock or Edmunds may look a bit cooler, but when it comes to milage and performance you can`t beat a McGurk.

Frank

On a similar subject-what would be wrong with a three carb intake set up and progressive linkage? Seems to me it'd be more economical at cruising speed,using one carb rather than two, and make more power under acceleration,though it'd use more gas accelerating than the dual carb set up. Is it about the expense of buying a third carb?
Speed

The one carb will not distribute the gas evenly. Number 3 and 4 will be rich 1,2,5 and 6 will be lean - like in the stock setup.

Go with 2 or even 3 progressive carbs like the Holley/Webers.

Frank

thanks for all the info - i belive i will try to hold off and hopefully make the swap meet in decatur. I really don't want to do a bunch of grinding on one as I have read in previous posts to make it fit with my original exhaust manifold. trying to get as close to a "bolt on" as possible. thanks again

thanks for all the info - i belive i will try to hold off and hopefully make the swap meet in decatur. I really don't want to do a bunch of grinding on one as I have read in previous posts to make it fit with my original exhaust manifold. trying to get as close to a "bolt on" as possible. thanks again

i have the 2 carb offy and there was no grinding to install. when i installed the fenton there was a small amount of grinding. ron

I had to grind the hell out of my Offy 2 carb intake to get it to mount with Fenton headers. Then you have to figure out how to heat it (Exhaust or water?). It might have been easier if I had split my original exhuast instead of using fentons.

There is nothing wrong with them.If he reproduces them then they will be everywhere like the Offys which is a bit boring for me.

I have a Fenton intake matched up with a set of ORIGINAL Fenton headers(one manifold bolts to intake)on a nos 216.If he reproduces them I will ditch this set up and find something else to run.

so the offy's will bolt with the original exhaust but they won't bolt with fenton headers without griding??????

True, Offy 2x1 or 3x1 will bolt to original exhaust, no problem. But to mate it up to the Fenton exhaust you do have to do some grinding. Some do a little grinding on both the intake and the Fentons to get it to fit. Some have ground too far on the intake and ended up with a hole in it. (not good).
Myself, I think the split exhaust that is offered by "Kansas Kustoms", http://www.kansaskustoms.net/
is a much better setup with the Offy intakes. You get to retain the exhaust heat for the intake and you still get the performance and cool sound.
As far as intakes go I too believe McGurk is still king. They have a divider inside that is suspose to help with fuel distribution and they (the 2x1),have been reproduced by "Wayne Co. http://www.waynemfgco.com/mcgurk.html, a little pricey but I feel it is worth it.(if you could get one) ***CAUTION***, if you order one from wayne co. have it sent COD because he is having some kind of trouble with people sending in money and never getting their orders. (I for one).
I would like to see the "Fenton" intakes reproduced. I think a lot of people would like to benifit from another choice. And I am sorry "ViejitosCC" but you sound just a little selfish in wanting other people not to have something that you may have. I understand that it is cool to have a setup that other may not have, but it is un-cool to hope that they are never able to match your setup. (sorry)
I say long live the Offy's, and bring on the Fenton's and lets hope that the McGurk intakes will someday be free to sell. Good luck "djed50"

Ed

Its not really being selfish.I never said that I didnt want somebody else to have the same set up but I think people should hunt for them like the rest of us,it's part of the fun.


There is no fun in "I would like to order your Vintage intake using credit card number xxxxxxxxx for my vintage truck!

There is no reason to reproduce ANY vintage speed equipment,the stuff is out there.

Heres what you do:

Take a day off work(friday)

Drive anywhere from 10 to 1000 miles to a swapmeet.

Get a motel room.

Get up at the wee hours in the sat morning(4:00)

Go to the swapmeet.

Look for an intake.

Buy it!

The experience will be PRICELESS and your truck most likely be unique compared to the others at the show.


Death to all Offys!!!

ps take kid with you to the swapmeet,you might teach him something.My dad did it with me and look at me now,one of the AUTHORITYS in 37-54 Chevrolet accessories in this country at a mere 30 yo!!!Yes I am tooting my own whistle.

That split exhaust doesn't require any grinding to mate up with the OFFY?
And what about the Mcgurk...any modifications needed there?

I really like the dual carb idea, but I really want to take care of the exhaust at the same time to take advantage of the mods.

Is anyone out there using the old 5 carb manifolds anymore? Those are pretty...

I have my stock exhaust splitted by Kansas Kustoms so the Offy was a "bolt right on", but a friend wanted the fentons badly so we had the same problem as everybody.

Grinding never even came to our mind. We made 3 spacer rings on a leathe for the offy. They move it out far enough that no grinding is needed at all.

We even gave them a "swirl" pattern at the inside (like a thread) that may create a little "tornado" to subtitute flow and mixture (well I don`t know if that works but we are insane anyways ) While at it we constructed them in a way that it replaced the little intake rings too.

Was this only one of of my typical german "supercomplicatedoverthetop" constructions :rolleyes: ?

I mean, does really nobody out there with all this Offys `n Fenton combos come to this simple idea?

Frank

I also got the typical Offy 2x1 and Fenton setup for a few years on my daily now.

I had to do very slight grinding, rather shaving to make a paper sheet pass between the intake and right header.

There could be something not quiet right with the new production Fentons, as I keep reading about the poor fit and much grinding on this forum over the years.

I have original 50s fentons with the left header going straight down, rather then at an angle towards the cab.
The threads for the intake heat also look different without any extra metal around them as the new repros have.

Maybe the original fentons are a better fit and for the repros they 'improved' a little too much on the original design.

They sure sound and look organic.
Never seen fenton intakes, wonder if they also have that beautiful natural flowing design.

On the road, You're on to something about the old versus the new. They are different - I don't know if that's bad or good except that now, a bit of grinding must be done in most cases. The fenton intake has sort of the "log design". It is shaped more like an offy or a Mcgurk. It doesn't have those nice flowing curves as do their headers. That's why I chose the Edelbrock. More curves. Personally, I'm going for cool looks. If it performs better, that's a bonus.

I run an original 2-carb. Fenton intake with original Fenton headers and had to do some grinding. You would think Fenton and Fenton would bolt right up. Actually what helped the most was angle milling the header flanges where they bolt to the head, so the headers tipped in slightly and cleared the intake. I didn't want to angle mill the intake as the carbs should be level.

I have also had to mill off the heat riser flange more than once on a Offy intake to get it to fit a stock split exhaust. If there isn't enough material there, you will have to mill it down to get the flanges parallel and then make an aluminum spacer to fill the gap. The intake should fit the alignment rings and the exhaust should line up with the ports and end studs on the head when they are bolted to each other. Don't bolt the intake and exhaust together and then clamp them up with the intake on the rings and the exhaust all out of whack. Keep that exhaust flowing smooth!

Reading the above posts about griding this and that to get stuff to fit, got me wondering. Has anybody here ran an Edmunds intake with Fenton headers, original or repro? How much grinding was necessary?

Which style of Edmunds intake? There were a few different Edmunds. If it's a water heated one, you should have plenty of room without grinding for clearance.

I mentioned this on a thread several months ago.

The mounting flanges on the new Fentons are thicker than the old style Fentons. In fact, they are so thick that when bolting the headers and intake to the head, you will find that many times installing the clamp to hold both units to the head will be almost be impossible due to the difference in the thickness of the intake flange and the header flange. This is true with not only Fenton intakes, but all intakes. :mad:

To slove this problem, the flange thicknesses needs to milled on the headers so they are the same thickness as the flanges on the intake(s). By doing this two things happen - the flanges become the same thicknesses for the clamp to properly hold each unit to the head AND milling the header flanges moves the entire header unit, front and back header, closer to the block which in turn allows the intake and the headers to pass by each other more easily. This is not to say they will clear completely, but it will allow a better fit without near the grinding.

Header flanges can be milled on any standard milling machine.

Joe

Hey Joe, that's a good idea! Stupid me, I've been thinning out the flanges for guys from the front side, because it's easier to mill that way, but I think I'll start milling from the back like you suggest. I can always angle mill (.020 or so) that surface alittle while I'm at it to tip the headers in another 1/8" at the bottom.

Joe-

Yer a Genius! Why don't you call Patrick's and suggest they do it before they ship the fenton's? Better still, why doesn't Patrick's have the manufacturer do it? (Patrick's owns the fenton trademark and produces the headers these days)

do the headers from Kansas Kustoms require grinding as well???
If not, I would be tempted to buy those instead...

I'm not sure that Kansas Kustoms make headers, they are known for splitting stock manifolds, so no grinding would be necessary.

I see. I'm not sure if I should split these or buy new. They will mate up to Probably an Offy intake which I will be getting soon along with a couple of Holley/Webber 2BBL carbs...I won't be able to take care of the headers as soon...

OK, I'm not sure I follow the milling process. I've purchased, but not mounted or attempted to mount the Offy with the Fenton exhaust. I always thoughtr the grinding was between the two flanges not the height of (thickness) of the flanges. So exactly where does the grinding and/or milling need to be done?
Anyone have a picture to link to?
If milled at a machine shop, what should the charges be?

I'm not trying to make this to elementary so as to offend anyone, just trying to explain.

The flanges I am speaking of are the ones which bolt against the head. If you take a set of Fenton headers and lay those flanges on a flat surface as they would be installed, and lay the intake manifold you are going to use with them as it would all be layed out on the engine head, you will see that the flanges of the Fenton headers are some to much thicker than the flanges on the intake - any intake. If those flanges are milled or thinned to be the same thickness as the flanges on the intake - two things happen. First, the clamps that are used to hold the headers and the intake to the head will be on a level plane as they span from one of the header flanges to one of the intake flanges. This will make for a much easier installation than if the flange of the header is thicker than the flange of the intake. It will also look correct where as with the clamp mounted crooked looks incorrect and sloppy. Second, by milling or thinning the flanges of the headers, the header's total body moves closder to the head and gives more space for the header to basically turn down quicker, thus leaving some more clearence between the header and the intake. It may not be enough space, but it will definitely amount to less grinding for the header to clear the intake. This is not applicable to all intakes. It is most prominent on the Offenhausers and the Fentons. The Edelbrocks, Thickstuns, McGurks and Edmunds seem to clear with out much of a problem. The Offenhauser is the most critical and that is the one most everopne tries to use with their Fenton header and 2 X 1 intake.

As far as anyone telling Partrick, I'll leave that up to one of you guys. I personally would rather use an original pair of Fenton headers then there are no problems.

If any of you 'Bolters have any questions, email me and I'll try to explain better or help you out.

Joe

Joe,
Thanks. Things a re a bit clearer now.
The Fentons are a poor product on the outside. I'll have to take a grinder to finish what someone didn't. The flange is very rough and very uneven on the backside. So milling down the face to equal the Offenhauser thickness will still produce an uneven mounting bracket. It seems that removing material from the backside will acheive the necessary results. Is that what Barry Weeks was refering to?

Thank you Rattletrap! That was the problem with my Patricks produced headers as well. Milling them on the head side would still make them uneven. Only one side, the "outside" 1/2 of each header had to be ground on mine. On side was so thick, instead of grinding, I used 1/4" keystock as a spacer. The other side of the tube had to be ground less than 1/8".The hold down washers are nice and even this way.

This is why it can take so long to get a multi-carb. set up working good, a bunch of small, unforseen problems like this can come up that need solving. Usually the interferance problem is between the underside of the intake and the rear header, right above where the header joins into the collector. It's hard to see, and if the interferance is slight, you may never see it. The intake could be held slightly off the head, causing a vacuum leak. To check for clearance, take a .020 or .030 feeler gage (or paper as on the road again mentioned)and make sure you can pass it between the intake and the headers anywhere you can see that they are close. If the interferance is minor, a little grinding of the intake or exhaust should help them clear each other. But never grind too much as you can go right through the manifold and turn it into scrap metal! It's been done before. Frank's idea of spacing the intake out away from the head will also work fine, but you may have to deal with uneven clamp flange thickness. Maybe this would actually work to your advantage with the reproduction Fenton headers with the thicker clamp flange?

On my original Fenton/Fenton combination, I had to grind on both the intake manifold and exhaust headers where they touched. Still not enough room to be sure the intake was tight to the head, so I angle milled the head side of the exhaust headers. By angle milling, I mean that I removed a small amount from the head flange surfaces, but not flat to the old surface. I removed more towards the bottom of the flange that bolts to the head. By changing this plane maybe only 1/32", the header tipped in towards the block an 1/8" or so at the bottom. I could do this myself and due to the time it would take to jig both headers up at a slight angle, a shop might charge $100 for this. A cheaper solution may be the way engine rebuilding shops resurface exhaust manifolds on a belt sander type machine. They would have to be careful to push harder on one side of the flange than the other to change the plane of the manifold surface that bolts to the head. This is very similar to what Joe is talking about to get the headers closer to the block and to thin out the clamp flanges at the same time.

No matter what or how you do it, care must be taken when fitting up an aftermarket intake manifold and Fenton headers on a 216/235/261. Don't rush through the job, take your time and see that everything is fitting up right and sealing tight. Too many people quickly slap this stuff on with poor results and then whine about how terrible it was and end up going back to a single carb. Fit the intake and exhaust, use identical carbs tuned for multi carb use, (see www.inliners.org for more good carb. info.) and take your time in making up some good linkage that opens both carbs smooth and evenly. Exhaust or hot water heat to the intake helps (something I need to do myself!), and hook up a choke on 1-carb. for cold weather starts.

thanks Barry!!!

Hey Jaime, just trying to help others out. I know at times I could use the help too. I first started messing with this old 6-cyl. speed stuff back in the late '80's. Back then, there was no internet like we now use, no Stovebolt Page, no Ebay, very little reproduction speed equipment and almost no one to ask for help. To find speed equipment, you networked by mail and telephone, and like you had mentioned, drove 2,000 miles on a weekend with no sleep to go to a good swap meet in the mud. Then you brought this junk (oops, treasures!) home and sat and figured out how to make it work. With all the resources available to us now, it's really pretty easy to do the research and find a good combination of parts and how to fit them to your engine so that they work properly. I'd love to see even more interest in the speed parts for all the old engines. I like old flatheads, hemis, nailheads, Oldses and others too. They aren't as cheap or easy to run as a crate small-block Chev., but talk about different and unique..!

You got my attention. I really like the Mcgurks intake. If it also has less clearance issues than it may be worth the price...

After doing a bunch of this setups I really ask myself why this stuff is so lousy.

I mean they charge a big $$ for Offenhauser sideplate, intake, valve cover, fentons and all but it always takes another (at least)$100 at the machine shop to get everything in the shape that it should have when it comes out of the box. :rolleyes:

The "Offenhauser" repro sidecover I had was so bad made, it leaked even with two gaskets and rtv. :mad:

Making those molds is not rocket sience and melting aluminum isn`t ether. We have some verry skilled guys over here that do things like this every day for BMWs and Porsches with a verry high quality.

We really thinking about producing some old style speedparts over here in Germany. I really want to take a part out of the box and it snaps right on without any modification.

Frank