The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area The HiPo Shop sbc rebuild questions

Long story, I apologize ahead of time, but I need advice.

So, I pulled my running-well 350 out of my truck last week, tore it down, and brought the block to a machine shop here in Manhattan, KS. Basic idea was to build a budget performer, felt like it was doing less than 200 hp before, so I'm working at getting 350-400 horse out of it. Bottom end looked great, so I figure we'll get it hot-tanked, magnafluxed, and reuse the old pistons, crank, and rods.
I get the block to the shop, next day they call and tell me the block's cracked around one of the water block-off bolts. I don't know if I did it, they did it, or if it was already done when I got the truck, as the block was painted.
Now, I'm looking to buy a block, get it machined, and start from the ground up.
Mind you, I'm working with a very limited budget.
So, the owner of the shop is trying to talk me into buying a 383 kit from him, +gaskets, +bearings, +camshaft, +machine work on the block, +balancing of the pistons/rods/crank, +block.
I don't think this is a bad idea, except when he starts telling me how tired he is of looking up parts for everyone all day, "not for YOU, just everyone." I tell him I found a 383 kit that INCLUDES gaskets, bearings, cam and lifters, and with an extra charge, rotating assy. balanced for less than what he wants for the kit he sells, with the same brand parts in it.
He tells me that he'll charge me 20% more labor if I bring in my own parts, and that it's like bringing in my own hamburger to McDonalds and telling them to cook it.
I want to know if this is a normal attitude for a machine shop owner to have, or if I should just look for a block somewhere else, and use a different machine shop? Basically, I'm feeling a little like this guy's trying to take advantage of the fact I would like an engine back in my truck before May, and he doesn't think I know anything about this stuff.

If I left out any important info, let me know, otherwise suggestions are appreciated.
Tony

What's a water block off bolt? Got a picture of the crack? Seems a crack would be more likely to happen somewhere weaker than around a bolt. I would take the block to another shop and have them look it over. Sounds like this shop wants to sell something they are already invested in,
Scott

I agree, try another machine shop. That would not fly well with me.

3rd that, take yer business elsewhere

Bill

Tony,

I don't know about the crack and some of the other issues, but I think it's only fair for a shop to make money off of labor AND parts.

I have worked around many different kinds of shops for years and wouldn't think of asking them to install parts I brought in...I'd be embarrassed to ask. They make their living marking up parts and charging labor to install them...everyone in business does it this way, you can't make it on labor alone.

Stuart

i doubt the machine shop cracked the block. i took in a 292 block had it mag'ed and it didn't even show a crack near the water jacket till i was into the rebuild. i think it's pretty common. i also think it's pretty common to have hairline cracks and they run fine. if you go in he should be able to show the crack to you if he can't BEWARE. he prob will. why don't you let him do the machine work and you get the parts and install them. that would save you money and any machine shop should be able to do that. i personally have not had good luck with "kits". just find another used motor and let him grind and check crank, recon rods, bore/ hone block, valve job, balance the spinning assembly when you have all your stuff. i don't think they are like a brake shop, i take new pistons in to have installed on rods and lots of new parts into machine shops. what's wrong with that? does he even need to see the gasket kit?

I saw the crack, it's above the gallery plug, I think that's what it's called. It starts on either side of it, runs up and around the edge of the raised part of the casting, then runs up from where they meet about 2". I really don't think they're a "crooked" shop, at least not the guy I talked to that did the work. The one that did the work, he said the crack probably happened from someone beating on the bolt to get it loose, as it was stripped when I tried to remove it, and I only tapped on it a little to get a Bolt-out on it, which didn't work. I couldn't get it to move. So, don't really think the guy would try to be like that, but he's got the fact of the block being painted when I brought it in "possibly" hiding the crack going for him, makes me hard-pressed to say he did it. I don't know.

As far as the parts thing goes, I know people bring parts in to machine shops all the time to have them balanced, checked, etc. If it was a regular engine-building shop, then no, I wouldn't dream of bringing my own parts in, but it's a machine shop, as far as I knew, you were supposed to bring them your parts.

The deal with the kit is that his kit he wants me to use is more expensive, and has less parts in it than the ones I can get elsewhere, and with the same brand-name parts. Heck, I'm even looking at stout short-blocks, and I can get them cheaper than he wants for what he's doing, and they're assembled!

Along those lines, I have a friend who works back home in his own diesel shop trying to find me budget-priced quality parts at his cost, and we're looking at just doing a short-block and building from there, he thinks the shop owner's trying to bugger me some, too.

I've dealt with a few other machine shops in other areas, and they never seemed to act like this guy, so I'm kinda feeling soured about using him, and unless someone can recommend a good machine shop in the Manhattan, KS area to me, I may just go with a short-block. I was really looking forward to my first "complete" engine build, but it may not work out this time, may just have to stick to the top end.

Thanks for all the replies, keep the thoughts coming if you have more, I'm interested to hear them.
Tony

is there another shop ,even if you have to do a little drive to get there.the guy that did mine had no problem with me bringing my own parts (which i got from summit) same price either way.but he did do most of my machine work.honestly if i had to do it over i'd say the hell with it and buy a crate motor.would've worked out about the same.................dave

Okay 383 = good. But tell him you want to use Vortec heads, with the spring and screw in stud upgrade, Scoggins Dickey sells the heads, but if he is a machine shop worth a dang they will know what you are after and can probably do the work on the heads You should also have a say in the cam. Tell them you want an Isky 270 cam with a 108 LSA. You will also want roller rockers, Comp Cam magnums work well.. I hate their cams. Also tell your machinest you are after about 9.8 to 10:1 compression and premium pump gas. This will tell him what pistons to use. Hopefully flatops. And Felpro gaskets thruout.

You will also want an Edlbrock RPM manifold specific for Vortecs, and 750 Holley 3310. If you are running a TH350 tranny, you will want a 2800 stall convertor.


I have built two of these Identical setups and they put smiles on my face... lots of torque, rumptey idle, good for power brakes-vacuum issues, and good low end power. This is a low budget hi performance build. Last car I built I just sold. It had serious traction problems. barley hit the gas and it was all over the place. Tires and traction bars would have helped.

Good luck and keep us informed.

I guess I understand where his increased charge for installing your parts comes from. You are giving him new parts, and if there are any problems with those parts, you'll want him to make good on those parts without paying him more money. At least that is what he expects.

If he provides the parts, a parts problem is something he can settle with his supplier and he has less risk.

If it were me, I'd put it together myself instead of paying him to do it. It might take longer and even cost more, but it will be more satisfying. I love the feeling of going down the road at speed knowing I assembled all those pieces.

Thanks for the replies.
9.5-10:1 compression is what I am after. Cam sounds real close to what I was going to do, as well, although not sure about the heads. OldSub, I wasn't going to have him assemble anything except pressing the pistons on the rods, and put in the cam bearings anyways, so if the parts are bad, that wouldn't be on him, either way.
The pistons I am going to have are flattop, 4-relief, heads I was looking at either dart platinums/iron eagles or world sportsmen IIs, with ~180-190cc intake and 64cc chambers for the right compression ratio. Gotta go to work, add more later.
Thanks again, all.

there seems to always be a suprise in a rebuild. i have heard of guys taking 4 or so engines in before they found a good rebuildable one. i don't think you can get in a hurry. you can sniff around for new parts on ebay and save even more money. i have actually had a machine shop hold a block for me to see what pistons i could come up with. i think oldsub is right do it yourself, steer clear of the short block. it doesn't have to cost more though. if it takes another month it will be worth it.

i forgot to mention i really don't like the way they mark up parts. it may be the standard way for shops but it seems a little deceptive. i think it would look a little better if their usuall rate was 80.00 per hour but they really needed 100.00 per hour to make it, just charge the 100.00 and leave the parts alone. it just seems a little shady even if it's the standad. some of the mark ups are huge. why would they do it if there wasn't some psychology involved in the price. i wouldn't feel bad about bringing in my own parts to anywhere, but i know most place would run you out on a rail. but hey, i'm not throwing stones. i work in one of the most crooked industries- health care. do you have insurance- one price, govt picking up the tab- another price, self pay- you my friend pay the most to help all those that can't. sorry not trying to get off topic. just out of curiosity what's the difference in price in the kits??

I'm still not sure I know where the crack is in your engine, as the only "gallery" I'm aware of is for oil, not water. There are three drilled passages above the camshaft, one that supplies oil to the cam and main bearings, and two that are oil supply holes to the lifters. Cracks around those places will either allow oil and coolant to mix, or possibly allow external oil leaks if they're at the back of the block. Either way, you've got a boat anchor.

I build engines for a few local round track racers, and the labor charge is variable according to who supplies the parts. That's normal, especially if there's a problem with quality or fit issues. If I supply the parts, they fit, and they work properly as an assembly, or I fix the problem at no extra charge. If you bring me a bunch of mismatched parts and insist that I install them, OK, but there's no warranty, and I'll charge you a bunch more for the aggravation factor. I'm not in the business of making your pipe dreams from a dozen parts catalogs a reality. If you're not comfortable with the deal the shop has offered you, pick up the pieces, pay him for what he's done so far, and go bother somebody else. Both of you will be happier for it.
Jerry

Is Billy Grahmm still in Manhattan? Not the evangelist, but the old Million Dollar Baby top fuel funny car driver and owner. I've had him do work in the past, expensive but good. Another name from the past is Norwin Palmer. Don't know if he is in business anymore either.

John

i hear what you are saying hotrod lincoln, but it didn't sound like a bunch of mismatched parts in his case. it sounded like the same or better quality kit. the markup at some shops around here (i'm not talking machine shops) is different too. they get the part from the exact same parts house as i do. charge double price and since they have a account they actually get it for 10 or 20% less. same box same part everything and it'd delivered to them. that doesn't sound like aggravation factor, it sounds more like screw factor to me. i am not saying you do that and it may be the standard, but i personally just wish they would add it to the labor. let's not deny there's some psychology to the pricing. hr

Got the problem solved- - - - -do it yourself and don't bother the professionals. After a few scattered engines because of a simple mistake the guy who has been building them for a lifetime would have spotted and corrected in the first place, it might begin to sink in that it takes more than a basic understanding of engine principles to be a successful builder.

The pro won't mind letting you get in on the expensive learning curve- - - -it's something he did years ago, and he's going to be busy working for someone who appreciates his expertise, and is willing to pay for it.
Jerry

Oops, mispelled his last name. Billy Graham Performance Machine, 1100 Hostetler Drive Manahttan, KS (785) 537-1271

John

That machine shop is just ill mannered. Find one willing to work with you. He can make his point without being rude and in doing so, have a good relationship with you as a customer now and in the future. Sure, you're a beginner but that's where we all start. However...like a poker game you need to have money to play. Not nickles but lots of dollars. That said, pound for pound, crate motors are an excellent value. You get alot for a reasonable price, no headaches like the ones you are about to have, and it's delivered to your door. Another country heard from...

John, you made me laugh! Performance Machine is the shop, and it's Billy that was the crabby one! Now don't get me wrong, I'm not bashing the shop, still just looking for advice and understanding of why/how a shop could/would work that way.

I'm still not sure what the cracked area is called, but picture the bottom sides of the block, near the center. One side had an allen head bolt, other side was a 5/8" bolt. The crack surrounds the 5/8" bolt housing.

On another note, I don't try to "bother" the professionals, but like hoggyrubber said, the markup seems hokey. $670 for a bottom end kit w/o gaskets, cam, lifters, or bearings (he knocked $20 off when I mentioned I could get the same parts he was getting me plus the others I just listed for $660). I also agree about there should be a labor rate posted (don't know about other shops, but none in his) and not this "let's look at what we're doing, I just estimate" and then not give me a price for 3 days until after he gets crabby with me. I also thought he would be happy either way, my parts or his- if I bought the parts, and they needed work, HE would get the work, and more money in the process.

I guess I don't agree with the way it used to be- If you were the resident expert in your field, you could be a jerk, almost were expected to be one. Today, except in small town areas, it's too easy to find another expert without an attitude.

I guess I have my own attitude- I'm a Soldier, a healthcare provider, prior private contractor in residential construction, and grew up working on a farm. So, maybe I'm hardheaded, too.

I'm still doing parts research, still not sure if I'm going the way of the shortblock or my own bottom end, the wife just spent $600 of my budget, putting my completed project a little farther off.

Thanks for the replies, always open to advice/suggestions.
Tony

Hi Tony, It's been about 15 years since I've had any work done by Billy Graham. Maybe grouchy old man syndrome is setting in. I do remember he wanted to do things his way and tried to talk me out of spending money on a rebuild and just go buy a crate motor. I didn't listen, and paid him to machine and partially assemble a 454 chevy. Motor still runs strong so the quality of work was good. I grew up in Clay Center, but haven't lived there for quite awhile. I do get back a couple times a year to visit my parents. Another name from the past is Tom Williams from Leonardville. I don't know if he still has a shop or not. I googled him and he still seems to be a very active drag racer. Might be worth checking into.

John

well i for one need the pros and don't want to bother them. i am constantly trying to learn more all the time, that's why i'm here. i want to try to do everything myself i reasonably can without sacrificing quality. if we left it all up the the pros what would be the purpose of this website- except for the pros talking to each other. i am glad we have several here to help all the rest of us out. i have totally rebuilt 3 engines so far (except for machine work) that have all worked great. no scattered parts or anything. all with no formal training just manuals, taking my time, and great advice from several websites. can't the pros and the rest of us just get along? i really don't mind paying them for their knowledge and expertise. that being said part of the motivation to do it yourself is to save money and not pay out the rear. i would also pay someone double who is easy to get along and doesn't try be a rear.

"Picture the bottom sides of the block, near the center. One side had an allen head bolt, other side was a 5/8" bolt. The crack surrounds the 5/8" bolt housing."

You're describing the coolant drain plug hole. It's a 1/4" pipe thread. That's an easy fix for anyone who can use an acetyline torch and a brazing rod. Find the end of the crack(s) and drill a small hole to prevent it from spreading any further. V-groove the crack with a die grinder, and have a good welder patch it with brass. It only has to hold coolant, and cooling system pressure isn't nearly as hard to seal as oil pressure or compression. That's definitely not a reason to scrap a good block.
Jerry

Sound like some one is trying to take you for a ride! On the Reading! when I took my block in to be machined I had them magna flux the block for cracks. Then when they found nothing wrong with the block I had it punched 030 over. The shop asked me what I wanted to do as far as parts where concerned I told them I would have every thing they needed when they checked every thing out. I wanted the crank ground 010-010 on the rod and mains or if they could have it polished but they had one that was out of specs. The rods were reconditioned,they put my Keith Black pistons on the rods with Speed Pro Rings on the pistons. The cam bearings were installed along with the pistons,rod and main bearings. True Roller Timing Chain was installed along with the engine componets being balanced before assembly. John Lingenfelder recommends 75cc heads for the street 441,993's etc.for a street engine. The machine shop also did my heads with new seats,valves, valve guides and the final install of studs for roller rockers. I might add these guys built racing engines for a long time until one of the partners became very sick and could not continue. They did very high quality work. The reason I had the lower end done was i was working seven days of the week back then.
62Blue
Don
Don

Thanks, John, I'll try that name. Hoggyrubber, I agree completely with you, except I don't know if I'd pay quite double lol.

Jerry, that's kind of what I thought, I even asked about fixing it, and they told me you'd have to heat the block cherry red, weld it, then cool it for 2 days in sand in order to get it right. I was like, we're not trying to recast the block here, but ok. Thanks for the tip, makes me glad I didn't scrap it, picked it up and took it home, instead.

Don, sounds like you used the shop I wanted to find. I know they recommend 75cc, but that only brings the compression to around 8-8.5:1, and I'm looking at running 9-9.5:1 for more power, as it won't be "daily driven," and the CR I'm looking to run in is still pump-gas friendly.

I guess I was suprised when he offered to sell me parts, I always thought except for blocks and old cranks, machine shop was where you brought your stuff to get machined. I know better now, and from now on, I'll either let them know I'll be using my own parts, or use someone else.

Thanks again, all,
Tony

It sounds like that guy better stick to machining, because he's not going to make it as a cast iron welder. Even if the repair was made with nickel rod and an arc welder, his procedure is wrong. Yes, it's necessary to preheat, but not even close to red. Weld about 1/2", then peen the weld with the pointy end of a slag hammer for several minutes. Heat again, and weld another 1/2". Peen again. Continue until the crack is covered, and hope it doesn't leak where the welds overlap. Brass is a much better choice, but it takes a skillful welder to do it right. Get the area all around the crack CLEAN, (several minutes with a wire brush in a die grinder) and groove the crack deep enough for the brass to build up a good bead before it reaches the surface level of the rest of the block. A good brass-to-cast iron joint will be smooth where the two metals blend together, not piled up like pigeon poop on a windshield!
Jerry

find a good block get your parts back and build it yourself with your friends thats the fun way

I have absolutely no business commenting on this thread but having been a marine engineer all my life and worked with and around many vendors, would certainly question your's as you did. I don't give a crooked furrow if he is an "expert" or not. You took your work to him and at least deserve some consideration and explanation for the "additional" work. Marking up or refusing to use your parts after doing the initial job would rile me too. I went through about the same thing with 4 "experts" at a rebuild shop in Orlando and all but the inexperienced one who did most of the work tried to blame their mistakes on me. Fortunately for me I was able to defuse each of their excuses and in the end did get my engine rebuilt although no one would exactly say or give me a complete parts list of what was done during the final "warranty" rebuild. I did manage to take some original parts away with me and supply them with some NOS parts that I located so I do find some comfort in thinking that they were installed.

Unfortunately for me, the rear seal started leaking shortly thereafter and I decided to have "some fun" and do it myself. Although I don't mind turning some bolts, pulling the engine, and doing the job it still riles me that after spending so much money with the "experts" I still have to do this myself. Part and parcel with that is perhaps why the engine still sits two bolts short of being pulled again in my garage. "One of these days" as Neil Young sings....

I feel your pain.

Don

OK, My time to spout off, and it will probably go against the popular opinions. This is MY opinion and not necessarily the answer to YOUR problems.

In my business, the business is run the way I/ME/MINE decides to run it. If the guy doesn't want to build YOUR engine in HIS shop with YOUR parts, I don't have a problem with that. Even if you have a certain type of "relationship" with the shop owner, I still wouldn't "expect" him to change or modify the way business is done.

When I was wrenching for a living, I had way too many customers want to rerun the parts I wanted to replace, get parts for my cost, and give me advice that their buddie's cousin's sister's brother-inlaw gave him, and the brother-inlaw was a bartender with a psych degree. And it's always about saving YOU money at MY expense.

If something goes wrong when I use or reuse your parts, it's not the warranty I am worried about as much as my reputation. It doesn't matter whether or not I warranty my work with or without your parts, if it fails, it makes me look like a crappy mechanic. It's hard enough to "try" to be perfect without adding the customers variables to the mix.

The machinist probably had some bad experiences in the past using someone elses parts and doesn't want the hassle of trying to argue with you about who's parts failed, and ruined the rest of the job that you want him to fix for free and stand behind. The shop owner is trying to use his "best" judgment based on his prior experiences.

98% of the customers are honest and fair. It's that 2% that really burn a shop owners butt. To be fair to the customers, there are crappy businesses out there that give the rest a black eye. Many do have a hard time fessing up to their mistakes.

I didn't mind seeing the same vehicle again in the shop, but my goal was to never see the same vehicle in the shop for the same work I had already done. I don't think anyone likes to redo the same job over. I would rather explain why I spent another $50-100 of YOUR money on the job so it could be done "right", than to explain why MY job failed because I didn't play it smart.

A price estimate should be within 20% (plus or minus) of the final cost. But that can change when you come in and want something else done (while they are at it). If the estimate is $1000, there should be no suprise if the final bill is $1050-1200 (remember to calculate taxes too).

If you don't like the way the guy does his business, take it to your buddie's cousin's sister's brother-inlaw with the psych degree and have a drink with him when your crying over the results.

I understand the above post. The guy is trying to make a living. He's invested in the whole enterprise and needs to make a certain amount in order to keep it going. It does require patience explaining the basics over and over to new and rookie customers who want to save a buck and end up spending five in the process. Things go wrong even when you do them right. That's why they want to use their own parts so they can be sure about the finished product and make a dollar on the parts, something they need to do in order to stay in business. Keep in mind that they aren't purchasing corporate jets with that money. They are paying the rent and the light bill. And when they go out of business because they couldn't do that, you will miss them more than you think. Building motors is fun but there are hassles. I've gotten to where I really like the whole simplicity of crate motors. There's an economy of scale there for the manufacturer. It then frees your time and frees your mind for other things.
Don, I've R&R'd a Pontiac engine three times dealing with a rear main leak. It now leaks in the front. Don't give up the ship!!!!

I understand it, too. The only thing I keep saying on here is this: The work I wanted him to do was only on the block/crank, if we were reusing my crank (this is after the crack was found), so the only thing that would come back on him is if he in fact DID screw something up.

And then, I would bring it back to him to remedy before telling everyone I know how bad he messed up, give him a chance to set it right. I wouldn't badmouth him unless he wouldn't get right with something that WAS a mistake/error/problem on his part, or work.

On that note, I found a motor, and thanks to you guys, I now know I can get my block fixed to build as a spare I actually found a 355 with darn near the exact same parts as I was looking to put in mine, fresh rebuild, at another machine shop, still on the dyno so I can hear it run.

Thanks again for all the input, be it for/against what I was trying to do, I'm always open to advice.
Tony

Yeah, I won't jump ship--need to reboard is all. About the above experience my comment was related to the fact that the shop owner said he was unable to find the parts so put the old ones back in. He then tried to blame me for destroying hydraulic lifters which he said were mechanicals. Trying to adjust them he bent the push rods. Long story but I did find the correct lifters from another 'bolter here. The guy also destroyed my timing gear by beating it on with a hammer without pre-heating it. He was then going to renew it with a synthetic one. I found an bought a new aluminum one like the original and requested that they install it. Long story crappy shop. I fully agree that the owner should run his business the way he wants. This guy certainly didn't understand customer service.

Don

yeah and then there's that. The shop that does a lousy job and doesn't stand behind his work. Very frustrating as a customer. Kinda makes me want to buy a CRATE MOTOR! Tony, I'm glad you found a motor. Hope you have lots of fun with that project...

I went up to look at that 355... SOLD :P that thing runs like a champ, good parts, nice idle, parts sheet and dyno sheet. Got to hear it run before I paid for it, it's pretty stout. 351hp and 379 lb/ft, 10:1 C/R, Thumper cam, mmmmmmm...

It was at a machine shop in Topeka, got there after hours when all the guys were working on an alcohol motor, got a FAR different attitude from these guys. While I'm here in KS still, I'll use them for any machine work I need, even though it's over an hour away. Night and day. BTW, it's Mike's Machine and Auto Repair shop in Topeka, if anyone needs machine work from a reputable place with a good attitude.

Tony

Plus, it's the only shop in the area with a dyno