The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area The HiPo Shop In Retrospect, I should have kept an I-6 in it...

Instead of being so dead set on changing out the 235 for a 350 V8 on my 1952 GMC 3/4 ton, I think I should have held out for a 292 or perhaps a 302 GMC motor and rebuilt that.

Why? Because really, the engine bay IS designed for a straight six engine, and a V8 is too much of a shoe-horn fit in a very narrow engine bay. It can be done and is an easy way to make nice power, not to mention a cheaper engine to rebuild.

There are few things cooler than a big inch stovebolt engine that is really built up strong. Am I thinking about switching back? Maybe...

We'll see.

yea, now your talkin'. i think the sixes are wayyy cooler than a v8. the last truck i got had a 327 and i pulled it out and put in a 292 i built for it. i like the low end tourqe and they can be built for higher rpms. i think they are easier to work on, easier to tune, and tons more room. they look nice with some vintage speed parts. i say come back. hr

I plan on keeping the 235 in my truck, mainly because I managed to get it up & running(very nicely), and it fits my narrow budget. Besides all that, it looks cool.

Yes, they sure do. Maybe if more parts were available that didn't cost a fortune, and it was actually possible to get close to 1 hp per cubic inch in my old 235, I might have kept it. But 80 hp was a little too weak.

250 or more hp and 350 or more lb-ft of torque would feel very very nice in that truck, and I'm sure that's within the capabilities of a good 292, especially with an aftermarket aluminum head. And really, that's not that much less than the 350 makes.

This might be off topic but it seems like you go to any car show and that's all you see is small blocks. Then about a month ago I went to a car show and saw a real nice '67 Camaro with the original straight 6 still in it. It was all fixed up. That was the coolest car there.

Back when I had my 235 in the truck, I actually won a trophy as a people's choice award. My competition was stiff too. There were some beautifully built V8 trucks there with paint so perfect, you could eat off of it. None of them won. I did in my original-appearing AD truck, complete with the beat-up bed sheetmetal and single stage paint job.

If nothing else, the stovebolt is a very very pretty engine.
I know Ford trucks of the day, with their flathead V8, were the more popular truck, and for good reason. But to me, the AD trucks are just so much prettier.

Drivability versus cache seems to be the issue. I understand both the desire for the V-8 and why some keep the inline.

My solution is to have more than one truck.

I don't see a lot of old Ford pickups running around, especially in stock unrestored form. There are a lot of farms around with an old Chevy truck sitting in the tree line, but I don't see a lot of Fords.

In our area, Chevy trucks were MUCH more popular. The Ford might run down the road faster but they would not pull a hill with a load of wheat like a Chevy.

Its just a matter of personal preference.I tend to lean towards the V/8s,But someday I would like to do up an AD or perhaps a 1934 Dodge PU with a hot straight six.I like the sound of a straight six,with a split maqnifold and dual glasspack mufflers with full rap about 15 MPH.

I have a 261 in my 51 and I wouldn't change it if someone gave me a V8.

I6 all the way...

You guys are goin in the right direction i believe. I just now after months of going "what the heck am i going to do with this hunk of 70 year old sheet metal now?" finally decided on a straight 6. I want a straight 6 build to move.

But honestly I know nothing about GM's straight 6's ... I have not researched them yet so if anyone can give me the short answer (just until i have a few hours to really sit down and study about the 6's) what would be a good 6 for a rat rod build bomber style? I want to smoke the tires and run the 1/4 but look vintage and be modern at the same time... Sounds like a mess but its what i've done with all my V's so why not an I or L?

Well, if you want to smoke BOTH tires, you will need a posi rear end.

I would also suggest a large displacement stovebolt engine. Then you will want to shave the heads for maybe about 9:1 compression if you keep the iron head, or 10:1 with an aftermarket aluminum head.

Definitely will want to upgrade to a more modern cam grind, with duration probably around 200 to 210 degrees @ 0.050" so that you can get the revs up a little.

You want to make sure to get new aluminum pistons, and may want to consider a set of forged small block Chevy rods as long as you can get them. Check me on this, but aren't they available in 6.8" length? I was told by my machinist that the stovebolt has the same big end diameter as a Chevy small block V8. But talk to your machinist for better details.

The mains are 2-bolt. But you can stud the mains and then have a metal bar across the studs for extra strength. Buy Leo Sanducci's book on hotrodding the stovebolt.

Leo did a cool thing. He bought a pair of aluminum SBC heads and cut the end cylinders off of each, and then heliarc welded them together to make a single aluminum crossflow head. If you're capable of that, that is ultra-cool. But I know there is a straight six aftermarket head available.

Multiple carburetion is probably your best bet, for the best fuel distribution. But a 4bbl carb will work well too. If you do go with multiple carburetion, consider not using the Rochesters. They don't really work that well and are very dated. I'd suggest going to Langdon's Stovebolt and buy either the Holley/Webber or Holley/Carter carbs. Buy his adapters and linkages too. And maybe also his air filters.

You also will want to get either Fenton headers, or check out Speedway Motors, who have tubular headers for this engine.

So go shopping for the biggest straight six you can find. Then go shopping for a good automotive machinist who can advise you on the build, and can even build it up for you.

I'm thinking built right, it would be sweet to get one of these things to spin 5000 rpm. I really think they could put out some power if you do a good job.

I have a 60 Apache C10 and it came with a mildly built 350. The truck is a blast to drive, it's like a muscle truck I guess I would call it. It will spin the tires at takeoff very easily, not that I do that often. It would be a totally different truck with a 6 cylinder. If the truck had an original 6 in it I probably would have left it that way. I like it because it's like having the best of both worlds, a pick-up truck and speed.
Joe

I wrestled with keeping the six in mine also for many of the same reasons mentioned. A mildly built six with dual carbs & headers really look cool in these old trucks. If I ever get another one that's probally the route I'll take along with updating the suspension.

Yes. I didn't worry too much about modifying mine because none of it was stock. If it were, I would have wanted to leave it be. But since it wasn't, I modified things here or there to update it and make it nicer to drive.

Way back when I was an engineering student at Tennessee Tech back in the late 60's, I did a little volunteer work with a sports car racing team. The parts-chasing truck for the team was a 1955 2nd. series 1/2 ton with an attitude- - - - - -provided by a Ferarri V-12 engine mated to a Colloti 5-speed racing transmission and a Jag XK-150 rear axle. A 150+ MPH stovebolt can be a real attention-getter!
Jerry

I love straight engines.... Not that I have any complaints against the ultra-dependable 305 that's in my dad's 95 chev..... It's just that I like the torque of a 6...

I must admit, I'm a torque monster!!

I will be keeping a I-6 in my Stovebolt, but it will be a 6-cyl Cummins Diesel at about 500hp....

Sometimes I troll craigslist looking for the right 70's Jag to serve as a donor to built a sportscar AD truck. I have never seriously considered using the Jag motor, but a Ferarri, that would be a different matter altogether!

A virtual clone of the Jag engine that's probably more available and less expensive would be a Toyota Supra. It's a somewhat-updated Japanese copy of the Jag twin-cam six, and is even avilable as a turbocharged version in some of the later models.

Having a 400+ horsepower I-6 in a stovebolt- - - - -now, that would be an attention-getter, especially if the Supra transmission was part of the swap!
Jerry

I owned a Supra once. A 1982 with the straight six engine. That engine was cammed a lot better than a stovebolt six. It made really tremendous midrange torque.

Yes, at risk of not being very original, I think a Supra's inline six would make an excellent engine swap into something like a 1/2 ton pick up. It would be lighter too. I'm sure those motors are common as dirt in many salvage yards. While you're at it, snag the 5 speed transmission from it too!

If you get lucky and get a twin turbo Supra engine...oh man, you'll be walking away from most people with V8 conversions.
When this same 350 that I put in my 3/4 ton used to be in my '68 Corvette, I played around with a twin-turbo Supra on the highway, and it out-pulled me. Strong motors. That's for sure.

My sister owned a Supra back in '81 or '82. It was a fun car to drive. I'm not ready for Toyota parts in my old truck. It may make a lot of sense, but I'm just not ready for that.

My main point in suggesting that engine was to show that there are choices out there that don't necesssarily include the small block Chevy V-8. They would be simpler to install, and offer similar, if not better performance. A beaned-up twin-cam I-6 will smoke most stock Chevy V-8's, without all the steering gear clearance problems, etc. The weight savings alone would make it a contender in the performance and handling arena.
Jerry

I understand Jerry. My own daily driver is a C4 Corvette. I'm painfully aware that some of the new Japanese 4-door sedans can blow the doors off my 23 year-old TPI 350 Corvette.

It just doesn't mean I'm ready to own one of the cars or even the motor, even though that Lexus V-8 looks like a hot ticket.

Not if you know how to soup up a TPI 350. I was putting the hurt on Subaru WRX's all over Denver with the TPI 350 in my IROC-Z. Unfortunately, GM drastically underbuilt the tuned port engines, so that they never really realized their potential from the factory. Torquey muthers, they are!

I build 600+ HP small blocks, but not for street machines. A modern V-6 with multi-port injection and 4 valves per cylinder in stock configuration in a stovebolt would keep up with the average V-8 conversion, and still meet all the federal emission standards. The twin-cam I-6's will do the same, if not better because of midrange torque. A little reprogrammable chip tuning on any of those engines, and the Detriot iron is in deep doody! I love the sound and "geewhiz" factor of a big V-8, but getting reliable operation and 20+ MPG, plus tire smoke on demand is a pretty impressive thing, too.
Jerry

I will never put a V8 in my 37 as long as I can get parts for the 235,I over came the drivability problems with a T-5 and modern rear end and my truck looks stock except it sits a little lower now. Jeff

My understanding is the factory TPI setup on my '85 will limit HP at about 400. But today the motor is bone stock and more than capable of everything I ask of it. I've toyed with a big block, or an LS motor, but I'm in no hurry to replace the current motor.

I guess I have an issue related to Hot Rod Dad's. The stock setup isn't that bad that I need to make a radical change and just leaving it alone keeps the car on the road and minimizes my problems. At least for now; it is a 23 year-old car with 100,000 miles on it...

when we got the 51 i went back to reading, net this and that page, read read read. got educated, i call it autoshop 101 all over again. I'm an old motocycle guy...... i waited until i could understand what fit w/ what. i did make a couple mistakes and paid the piper a little. 302 are cool BUT a PAIN to do

ALL in all i believe i have a decent truck. the old 235 engine was not much for rebuilting the, so within a couple minutes after talking to several shops, i made two calls and found a good (lucky) L-6 engine. she's all rebuilt. my intent was ''kiss''. throw in good steering, running gear and brakes just to make her fun to drive. I spent $600 on the 292, and $800.00 to have he all gone thru. We added the fun stuff as shown here. she hasn't been started yet, but we're getting close. it's been a long process. i just wish it was a 39.
i agree w/ John S, 99.4% of all autos in car shows are V-8's

Let's undo that guys and show them a real good engine possible sleeper, at our local shows across the country next year.
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I could care less as to how fast or slow i GO
I'M GOING

The problem is, there are so few aftermarket parts for the 235 to really modernize it. It's an engine that is just not supported by GM, nor even significantly by the aftermarket.
If putt putting around with 80 to 110 hp and slowing down on every hill doesn't bother a person, sure, it's a good, reliable motor that will just about run forever.

If I could have even possibly gotten 1 hp per cubic inch, I probably would have kept the 235. I did try to find a 292 but was unsuccessful. The 350 was available and was sitting right in my garage. But none of my mods are irreversible.

And in regards to Hotrod Lincoln's post, it depends on what the average V8 conversion is. It's hard to compare apples to apples here. Because a 4-valve V-6 or I-6 is not a common thing to see. Having had an '82 Supra with a 4-valve I-6, yes it had very good midrange torque, but wouldn't hold a candle to the much stronger torque of my 350 motor. But then again, maybe my 350 is not your average V8 either. Compared with a 305, yes, I would have to agree with you. The 305 was the biggest waste of iron I've ever seen.

In fact, I've still got my 235 and it is rebuildable. The warp in the block can be taken out by a machinist. But if there was a way to get more than 110 or so horses out of it, maybe I'd rebuild it. Otherwise, it seems to me that it's not worth 4 to 5 grand to rebuild an engine like this and try to get a few more horses out of it, when the same 4 to 5 grand would build something that did make enough power not to slow down on hills so bad.

So I don't know what to do with my 235. Put it in a boat maybe?

Well my feeling is its yours, do whatever you want with it. On the other hand, I suspect it would not be satisfying in a boat either. 600 pounds and less than 100 horse...

This topic is sorta like beating a dead horse. Just about everyone here has a different opinion,on what kind of an engine to use. True the old inline sixes can be built to run with a 350 V/8,but the cost and availability of parts gets out of hand.I went with a 350 in my 55 2nd and I really like the way it drives and handles. A lot of times you can buy a 350 out of a junk yard install it and youve got a strong runner for a few hundred dollars.And yeah you will see mostly V/8s at the car shows for this reason,cost,availability of parts,performance,etc.Or you can buy a new 350 crate 300 HP engine for around $2000. I am not knocking the straight sixes,but with myself and most others out there money is the name of the game.We try to keep the cost down on these projects.A friend of mine had a drop dead gorgeous 57 Chevy,convertible,as close to a number one car as I have ever seen. He had the original 283 engine overhauled to factory specs.no hop up at all. Cost was $4500.To my way of thinking he could have bought two new 350 crate engines for that $4500.So when it comes down to engine choice,its a matter of personal preferance,and how deep your pockets are.

I can't understand why everyone thinks it's so much more expensive to rebuild a small-displacement Chevy V-8. The parts cost is virtually the same as for a 350. I would venture to guess I can buy every part I need to rehab a 283 within a couple of hours, right here in Nashville, and they won't cost me over $600.00. If you're paying over $2000.00, parts AND labor to get a 283 or a 327 rebuilt, bring along a big jar of vaseline, and hope the mechanic kisses you, too! It's a shame to get screwed and not get kissed!
Jerry

i spent 2300.00 to have mine rebuilt and sometimes i wish i had put a 350 or something else in it. it is a very reliable engine the 235 i drove it for 20 years myself with no problems but i drove it locally. i sometimes wonder if it would make a long haul like the kc trip, 1200 miles there and back. i may find out next year. maybe if i get the insulation done and it rides quieter and i can't hear all the clanks creaks and groans and am talking about the truck, i will feel more confident. most people think it is cool that i have left it in. i tell the uninitiated that i have a corvette engine, most don't know that the 235 was the original corvette. ron

Jerry, there is such a wide range that I've seen in costs to rebuild engines that I've had a 283 that I built for $800, to a 427 big block Chevy that I built for $10,000. Much of it depends on how exactly you are building it. And more than a fair share depends on what your machinist charges you; as I've seen a broad difference there too. If you go to a machine shop that does good work, has a good reputation, but charges a lot for stuff, then yes, it could cost you a couple of grand just for the machine work. But if you find someone that has converted his garage into a machine shop, has low overhead as a result, and does very good work, then you can get the machine work done for under a grand.

It also depends on if you use stock parts or if you're gonna upgrade. For example, $600 for a forged crank, $500 for a set of forged 4340 H-beam connecting rods, and $800 for forged pistons with coatings applied, you're already looking at almost 2 grand just for parts, not including the rebuild kit. And if you're applying nitrous or any kind of forced induction, you better pony-up, if you want that motor to last.

And then you've got heads. A good set of heads could run you anywhere from about $800 if you get an Aussie pair, to $1500 for a nice set of Brodix Track 1's or something comparable.
Then are you gonna do EFI? Because that can run a few grand just for that.

All of a sudden, you're pondering whether a crate motor at 6 or 7 grand would be preferable to the strong little small block that will cost you about the same to build doing it yourself.
Either way, if you want to play, you better be willing to pay.
THAT'S what costs so much to build a small block...

It depends on how you're gonna build it and how much you're willing to spend. It's not a matter of vaseline, it's a matter of the goal of your motor.

I think there is more than one element to the cost comparisons when rebuilding one motor or another. One advantage to the crate motors is the fixed and predictable price.

All the choices someone might make in building any motor can change the cost dramatically. And the surprises when you open one up can bring more expense.

When I've priced parts to rebuild motors it does seem the 350 Chevy is cheaper than anything else. I believe that is a simple result of supply and demand. There are so many 350's out there and the motors are so popular, that the cost of offering the products to the market is lower.

Go to one of the online places like Performance Automotive Warehouse and compare kits for a 283 versus a 350 versus something like a Cadillac 500. It may not be big dollars but the 350 has always been cheapest when I've compared. If cost is the primary consideration you're likely to find the 350 a good choice.

So much of the decision of what to build and what to swap comes down to individual decisions and opinions. While I have opinions and am happy to share them, I also believe my choices may not be the best for you, just as yours may not be best for me.

For me I'm always torn between a fast cheap solution and doing something more interesting. The older I get the more I lean toward something different from what everyone else is doing. And that choice seems to always cost more and require more engineering to make it work.

Back on the subject, that's why straight sixes are cool.

Old Sub has the best answer yet. Just get a few more trucks, and your options increase tenfold.

350's have been produced for the longest period of time of any small block, therefore there are more out there. They first appeared in the Camaro in the late 60's, and production continued until the L98 engine in the Corvettes in the late 80's. That's 2 decades. They went to a new generation in the LT1 and LT4 engines into the 90's but were still based on the same motor. They didn't go into a totally new small block design until the LS1 engine, 3 decades after the 350 was first introduced.

Yes, it cost more like 4 grand to build the big block Pontiac motor in my Firebird. It is cheaper to build a more common engine.

And this does relate to the straight sixes. I think they tend to be expensive to modify and build up because their parts are not so common. Even if a company came out with a twin overhead cam aluminum head for a stovebolt, they'd have to price it so high to recover their tooling cost that few people would probably buy it. The stovebolt is a more challenging engine to build.

Dad where are you ending the 350? I'll admit my knowledge of the later motors is a bit thin, but wasn't it basically the same motor into the 90's?

My '85 L98 has cast iron heads. Starting sometime in '86 'vettes got the alloy heads and about the same time the one piece crank seal. My '91 K2500 has a 350 that aside from the TBI looks like a basic cast iron 350. Isn't it still the same motor? And didn't they use it in pickups a few years more?

I absolutely agree with your conclusion, the 350 was made longer than any of the other small block Chevys, and the small block Chevy has likely been installed in more cars over more years than any other American made motor.

More challenging to build and modify is the GMC inline. Parts, especially hot rod parts, are harder to come by and more expensive when you do find them.

The guy who bought the rights to the Wayne head apparently could not make it financially even though he was simply reproducing an old design. I'd love to have a jimmy with a crossflow head but it is unlikely I'd spend $5,000 to get there...