The Stovebolt Site Forums The Shop Area Engine Shop Pete is too sneaky for me

Well my dad and I tried to finish up our rear main seal job tonight on our 54 /12 ton. We got the top seal 3/4 the way around the crank when one of the jaws on our "sneaky pete" tool broke, causing the wire to come out and the seal to sit there half installed. We were so close. This is definitely a two man job, and is certainly doable, but I think someone needs to add some detail to the rear seal tech tip, because the way I'm seeing it right now:

1) Loosening up the main bearing caps only allowed a very slight wiggle in the crank. It certainly didn't drop down.

2) It seems to me that it would be a lot easier if one were to separate the transmission from the engine -- because isn't the transmission to flywheel/clutch disk connection what is really preventing the crank from dropping down to give more clearance?

I'm sure most people who replace the seal either do it with the engine completely out of the truck (and per the shop manual), or only replace the bottom half of the rope. Sometimes I wonder why I'm trying to do all these things with the engine in place. Am I crazy?! This thing is driver, not a frame off resto (yet)!

The irony is that I'll probably end up replacing the clutch disk anyway, forcing me to remove the transmission, since I'm pretty sure it has been mildly soaked in oil.

Despite the frustrations, we are still having fun. So that is the main thing. Except I think I'd be having more fun driving the truck this summer.

Well, I am trying to finish that frustrating job, at the moment. I used 40 lb black fishing line tied to some twine to get mine through. I had to pull the transmission off to get the crank to drop some. I won't know until I run it if the front seal was damaged in the process. Good luck!

gjberche: I will be screamed at for saying this but over the years I have replace several and never taken anything loose but the rear. I have what is called a "chinese rope" or at least thats what everyone calls it. The seal rope fits in the end of it and the harder you pull the tighter it gets on the seal rope. I still have it in my box and if you want to use it I would send it to you. I lube up the rope seal fairly good and then with this chinese rope deal you can pull the daylights out of it.
Has anyone else used what I'm talking about?

Truckernix- I'm doing the front seal as well, so I already it and balancer removed, so I guess I'm safe in that regard. How much more did the crank drop after you pulled the transmission? Was it one of those "ah hah" moments?

Achipmunk- I am using a similar tool. Here is a link to the Autozone tool I'm using. (part #27147). Is this the same one you've used?

I'd love to hear anyone else who has insights on this process. I will get this done, but I'm hoping I don't have to escalate things to a much bigger project (transmission and/or engine removal). Thanks in advance.

Alvin,

I have used the exact same device and procedure you mention and it worked well. I loosened all the main bearing caps but never thought about the transmission.

I think I actually pried the crank down a bit to gain a little extra room. I do remember slopping STP all over the rope as I pulled it through. Patience and plenty of slick-um is the key to getting the upper half in.

I don't think I would attempt this with any tool other than the finger trap that totally encircles the rope..they will not slip off by pulling too hard!

Stuart

I dropped the crank by maybe 3/16" or more. If it tilts forward it hangs up on the thrust bearing. I take my hat off to those that can do it with the tranny in place. What was really tough was having the string slip off the flange and on to the smaller part of the crank. When this happened, over and over, I had to start from scratch. When I finally was successful, there was an initial drag and some trouble getting the seal to conform to the space. After the first inch, there was very little drag. That is because of the space created at the top of the circle. My seal is one of those new ones made by Graphtite and marketed by Best gasket. It is a teflon type material in a dense weave. They are supposed to be very good.

Trying to put the pan back on, my new gasket set had cork ends instead of rubber. The pan would not go forward enough to seat with the cork gasket. That is because there wasn't enough space between the cork and the motor mount shield.

Does a Sneaky Pete Kit contain a Chinese Finger Trap type device?

Tim,

I don't think so. I think each manufacturer of the seal insertion tool used his own design. The Sneaky Pete kit you have linked looks like it has a auger affair you screw into the seal itself. This is different than the woven wire finger trap on the model I used.

The auger looks like it could pull out of the rope material while the finger trap really grips 100%.

I thought Lisle made the finger trap style.

My two cents!

Stuart

I would definitely like to know where I can get one of these tools with the finger trap gripper. The one I got at my FLAPS is the one I linked above, and the one Tim linked too. Is has a jaw-type clamp, which caused us trouble due to it messing up the seal's weave.

I also agree with what truckernix says -- once the seal gets going it seems to pull through relatively easily, until, of course your puller tool breaks like mine did!

So I would appreciate it if someone could find one of those finger-trap style pullers online. This would be a must-have tool for this job, I think. If I find one I'll post a link in this thread.

I'm curious as to why everyone seems to be replacing the rear main seal with the rope type and not the late style rubber lip type. Is there some problem with the lip type? It certainly seems like it would be a lot easier to install.

Dave

It is my understanding that engines before 1956 aren't machined to the tolerances required by the newer seal.

Sheesh..all I could think of was Lisle, forgot about K-D Tools.


http://www.sjdiscounttools.com/kd492.html

Stuart

Thanks for the link Stuart. I'm gonna get one of those!

Nice link, Stuart. That is the style tool that I had always used.

Rim

The "Chinese handcuff" type of seal puller works well, but be VERY careful not to insert too much of the seal into the device- - - -you won't be able to remove it from the seal after it's installed if you do.

I soak the rope seal in oil for several hours before trying to install it. Then roll it out on a flat surface until it's about 2/3 of its original diameter. It will stretch an inch or more in length in the process. That way, it rolls over the crankshaft very easily, even with just a piece of copper wire hooked into the end of the seal as a puller. It's easier if you loosen all the main bearing caps and drop the crankshaft down a little.

Once the seal is rolled over the crankshaft, use a piece of wooden dowel rod to pack it into the groove, expanding it back to its original diameter. I have installed at least 50 seals that way, with very few failures.
Jerry

This is a follow up to my previous post. I got the motor back together and took it for a test run. The front seal appears to be OK. The new rear main seal leaks a very small amount, about 1% of what it used to. This is the new type of seal, made by Graphtite and marketed by Best Gasket.

Maybe with time the new seal will swell a bit and form a better seal? Either way, I guess the rope seal design was the best design they had at the time. It seems clear that the engineers factored some leaking into the equation -- the flywheel inspection cover has the drip hole in it!

I wanted to post an update: thanks to you guys my dad and I were able to get the top rope seal installed with the engine and crank in place!! The chinese finger tool made the difference, and we luckily had enough rope material to get the tool off the seal once we pulled it around.

So I'm pumped about this, but we've got a few more things to deal with before we button her back up and drive her around again.

My advice to others attempting this in the future (at least on a 235 like the one in my '54):

1) The chinese finger tool (KD #492) is far superior than the other junky tool with the alligator clip. The chinese finger tool is more expensive, but you get what you pay for.

2) Yes, you can do this without removing the transmission

3) You really need two people for this job, one to keep tension on the puller tool (I'd estimate 5-10lbs of force) and the other person to use a small screwdriver or equivalent to help the seal conform to the shape in the block as the seal is pulled (we didn't roll our seal out excessively).

4) Lubricate the seal (we used lithium grease) to help it around. We didn't soak ours in oil like others had suggested -- I know others have done this, but I didn't think it was appropriate.

5) The seal from Best Gasket (got mine from Jim Carter) is far superior to the Fel Pro seal, at least in terms of feel and appearance. I bought both. Without having tested both, I can't say from experience which one is better, but based on appearance alone I'm guessing the Best Gasket will be the best.

Now I'm anxious to see how well this works. I'm not expecting miracles, just something better than the sieve-like seal that was there before.

Good show! One little bit of trivia I forgot to mention is that if you turn the crankshaft while you're pulling the seal over it, the friction is reduced by a noticeable amount. That really becomes a 2-person job, unless you're a contortionist!

Glad you were successful! (we need an animated "applause" smilie!)
Jerry